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  #21  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:56 AM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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You might consider a broker. They make a fair living as a professional buyer/seller of aircraft. The fee may very well cover the time and frustration of trying to do it yourself. I know folks who use brokers so they don't have to deal with all of the tire kickers, no shows, abusive people, liars, and cheats. That's what you pay them for.
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  #22  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:04 AM
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Been on both sides in car deal many times.

Not defending the seller if he in some ways promised to hold it for you but I will never again, hold an item like an aircraft or car... to many broken promises or shady tries to hold it, then cancel and then coming back with a ridiculously low offer a few days later.

Then again, I will be very open about this position with any potential buyer that contacts me.
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  #23  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:30 AM
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RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
Ive sold exactly one airplane and I've become very jaded in that experience. It seems that there is a 20:1 ratio of "dreamers" to "buyers". Many weekend plans ruined to accomodate a "serious" buyer who really just wanted a free ride in my airplane. Some lessons learned:

- Talk is cheap - Zero negotiation on price unless you are ready to make a binding financial committment on the spot.

- Show me the money- a deposit to "hold" the airplane is generally Non refundable.

- Time is Money - Your deposit does not buy you "forever" to get your act together.

On the flip side, I've purchased 3 airplanes so far and I was prepared to pay full price on the spot in cash. The leverage this affords the buyer is lost on many people it seems. With so many dreamers and tire kickers out there, even a lowball offer in cash looks pretty good to the frustrated seller. Interstingly, this detail actually caught one Rocket seller off guard... He did not accept a stack of $100 bills, he wanted me to get a cashiers check! This delay cost him the sale, as I had another candidate in mind and he had no problem accepting a paper sack full of cash. Buyers market!
TBH, I'm not sure I'd accept a wad of hundreds, either, when we're talking about something as expensive as a plane.
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  #24  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer View Post
TBH, I'm not sure I'd accept a wad of hundreds, either, when we're talking about something as expensive as a plane.
I find this completely odd, no offense. Why not? It's the only way to be sure you will get paid with no hassle. If you're worried about counterfitting, just have the buyer meet you at your bank, and they can check the money as they deposit it. Even simple, about $5 bucks will buy one of those pens at Staples to check it yourself.

When I bought my 172, the guy was asking 37k and said the price was "firm". I took 37k in $100 bills, because I had planned on paying that much if he didn't budge on price. When I was happy with the plane, I brought out 32,500 in $100 bills and put on the table and told him "I'm ready to buy the plane now, have my friend here fly it home tonight and you'll never see us again if this is an acceptable price to you".

I honestly didn't see anything weird or odd about me bringing cash to the deal. It's the easiest form of currency during a transaction. I honestly believe if I hadn't brought cash with me, he would not have taken that low of an offer, since he said he was "firm" on his initial price. I saved him and myself a **** ton of time in that deal.
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  #25  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CubedRoot View Post
I find this completely odd, no offense. Why not? It's the only way to be sure you will get paid with no hassle.
There are other ways, and they won't trigger a CTR when you deposit it, AFAIK, either.

I wouldn't be carrying around that much cash, either, if I were buying. Ever hear the stories of cops seizing large amounts of cash just because they can, and then you get the pleasure of *trying* to get it back? Oftentimes done at airports because, hey, only drug dealers carry large amounts of cash.

This is 2017...there are better ways of handling large-dollar transactions.
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  #26  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:28 AM
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ppilotmike ppilotmike is offline
 
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I bought and then sold a partially built RV-3B (and I'm still sad about it). Buying and selling were done the same way: 1st cash in hand offer.

When I arranged to fly out of state to inspect and potentially buy it, I first, sent a non-refundable deposit to the Seller to secure first right of refusal. Then (quickly) arranged to go there, brought the remaining cash in hand, inspected it and bought it same day. In fact, I showed up in a U-Haul truck. The point is, my intentions were sincere and obvious to the Seller. In the end, he had 3 other guys after/during the process; some of which offered even more money, but I was forthright with him, did what I said I was going to do, and in turn, he delivered the same courtesy to me.

Later, when I realized I needed money to finish my 10 and sold the 3B project (man, I'm still sad about it...). the buyer and his wife, from Florida, bought it pretty much the same way. Non-refundable deposit, showed up with a U-Haul and the remainder of the offer in cash, ready to buy after inspecting it.
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  #27  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:13 PM
RhinoDrvr RhinoDrvr is offline
 
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So I can learn the process better (first time buyer)

For everyone saying that they put down non-refundable deposits;

1.) What if the airplane fails pre-buy due to undisclosed issues? If that's the case I could make a lot of money on non-refundable deposits to see my piece of junk...

2.) How much money are you guys generally talking? I was offering 10% of the asking price, but I'm obviously not okay with $7k-$10k bring non-refundable.

3.) Do most of you skip organizing a pre-buy to make a quick purchase? That's a risk I just am not willing to take; especially with a homebuilt airplane.

I ask so I can learn how to better execute next time (or realize that it's going to take a while to find a seller I can work with)
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  #28  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:43 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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I do LOTS of prebuys all over the country, and I have yet to see anyone get stiffed. I have seen buyers put down $10K on an airplane, subject to the prebuy inspection, and have ALL of their money refunded when we walk away from it. It's too bad you had this experience, but I think it is not the norm, at least from my observations. Perhaps it is because we have good, in-depth conversations with sellers prior to spending any monies on travel, and it helps to weed out the "unscrupulous" sellers.

Two pieces of advice I would give, for what it's worth: don't put down non-refundable deposits, and don't get emotionally attached until you have had a prebuy by a qualified individual. It's a whole lot easier to get burned by doing it any other way, and I have seen plenty of those.

Vic
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Last edited by vic syracuse : 08-11-2017 at 12:45 PM. Reason: added info
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  #29  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:43 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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If you are a buyer, the risk is on you to get your eyes on the airplane before the next guy. And if you want it, you better have money on you. JMHO.

And I may be old school, but I see nothing wrong with buying something with cash.
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  #30  
Old 08-11-2017, 12:47 PM
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Saville Saville is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RhinoDrvr View Post
So I can learn the process better (first time buyer)

For everyone saying that they put down non-refundable deposits;

1.) What if the airplane fails pre-buy due to undisclosed issues? If that's the case I could make a lot of money on non-refundable deposits to see my piece of junk...

2.) How much money are you guys generally talking? I was offering 10% of the asking price, but I'm obviously not okay with $7k-$10k bring non-refundable.

3.) Do most of you skip organizing a pre-buy to make a quick purchase? That's a risk I just am not willing to take; especially with a homebuilt airplane.

I ask so I can learn how to better execute next time (or realize that it's going to take a while to find a seller I can work with)

First off it's important to keep in mind that there is no foolproof way for the buyer or seller to prevent getting screwed.

For example given your #1:

Ok so say you draw up a contract that says seller will hold the plane for a 10% deposit. The deposit is non-refundable UNLESS the pre-buy uncovers problems that turns the buyer off.

Well what if the seller disputed the severity of the "turn off"? Who adjudicates that? Suppose the buyer saw some poorly installed instruments on the panel - cosmetically poor. Holes a little too big. Nothing that makes the plane unsafe but now there's a worry in the buyer's mind that there maybe other hidden workmanship errors and so it's a turn off.

But...the seller knows it's just cosmetic and the rest of the plane is fine?

What can turn a person off is different from person to person. I saw a plane with a mis-shapen cowling induction. Turn off.

Who is right? Who adjudicates that?

On the other hand, if a seller is required to give money for holding the plane and it's non-refundable then the seller might be out several thousands of dollars because finding just the right plane can take some time.

The methodology I used to find my plane worked ok. There were pitfalls. I never put holding money down. The time it took me to arrange pre-buys lost me airplanes. This is because the planes were in Arizona or Texas (for example) and I'm in New England and I didn't even KNOW any good inspectors - anywhere. On the other hand, having the Pre-buy done before I travel saved me LOTS of travel money...I was waved off of several airplanes by the inspector. Here is what I did:

1) Make a list of my absolute requirements, my "would be nice", and my instant wave offs.

- Example: if I'm looking for an RV-4 I would not buy one without the updated stronger firewall weldments.

2) Made a spreadsheet that had a column for each plane under consideration.

3) When I found a plane that looked nice on paper I'd start a spreadsheet column on the plane. I'd call the seller and get all the info I could about it - filled in the spread sheet.

4) If it looked good I'd find a Pre-Buy inspector. If it was long distance (like Texas or Arizona) I'd have the Pre-buy inspector look at it. BTW I worked out a whole checklist on selecting inspectors.

NOTE: I have shown some good faith here because I paid for a Pre-Buy. A tire kicker would not do that. So the seller knows I'm not a tire kicker. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy the plane but the seller should rest easy that I'm not a tire kicker.

5) If the plane still looks good I fly out to see the plane and take a ride.

NOTE: The buyer has further indication that I'm not a tire kicker because I flew say, from New England to Texas to look at the plane.

Sometimes I met the inspector when the plane was inspected. I did that when I was looking at a prospective airplane in South Carolina: I met Vic Syracuse at the airport where the plane was and I learned huge amounts by being there with him.

7) If I still liked the plane I sat with the seller and we talked price. If we could make a deal we had a deal. If not...not.

Yes this is a long drawn out process especially when you are starting. Just collecting a list of Pre-Buy inspectors is time consuming. Once you have the list, though you can start to move quicker on planes.

Yes you can lose airplanes if they are a long ways away from you and you have to do things remotely. And many of them will be long ways away from you.

But I found a good plane this way.
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Last edited by Saville : 08-11-2017 at 12:58 PM.
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