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  #21  
Old 08-04-2017, 04:41 AM
rmartingt's Avatar
rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lon@carolon.net View Post
Bob, Thanks for this, very much. Your post is the first I've seen that actually cites chapter and verse. I'm amazed that you were able to find and understand the information. You said you're not a DAR; but you must be some sort of aviation professional. I say that because I've taught tax law to law students. I even wrote a tax book for lawyers. And though tax law has a reputation for being complicated and difficult to understand, what you found and explained is much more difficult. It's like a treasure hunt with obscure clues. So, again, thanks.
I'm an aircraft systems engineer. I deal mostly with Part 25 at work, but I was on the Part 23 ASTM committee for a while and have done some digging on other questions as well (e.g. the specifics of why certified airplanes "need" TSO'ed ADS-B equipment... the answer will surprise you). I'm not going to lie--part of it is the interest in finding loopholes or unexploited openings that we in the light GA community could use, and part of it is trying to find contradictory, outdated, or useless regs in the vain hope that the FAA will have to do something about them if I pester them them enough.
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  #22  
Old 08-04-2017, 06:42 AM
Rrhsch Rrhsch is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Rrhsch View Post
Phase 2 operating limitations for 191i ELSA in order 8130.2J released 7/21/2017
Appendix D-1 item 50. This is located at the end of the document if you want to look it up.

Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in § 91.205(d) are installed, operational, compliant with the performance requirements of, and maintained per the applicable regulations. The pilot in command must have a method to comply with the § 91.319(c) prohibition from operating over densely populated areas or in congested airways. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning aircraft to service. (50)

The limitation for IFR in VFR conditions only applies if the following:

D-4 f. Aircraft with very high risk factors or safety of flight issues must have those factors properly mitigated. Restrict operations to a specified geographical area, and prohibit the carriage of passengers, flight over densely populated areas, and night or instrument flight rules (unless restricted to visual meteorological conditions (VMC)) operations for any of the
following conditions:
(1) Aircraft for which the applicant has surrendered a special LSA airworthiness certificate (§ 21.190) and is applying for an experimental airworthiness certificate (§ 21.191) for the first time, and is not in compliance with § 91.327(b)(3) or (4);
(2) Aircraft for which the manufacturer’s or country of origin’s emergency checklist requires bailout or ejection in the event of an engine or other system failure;
(3) Any aircraft in which a single system failure will render the aircraft uncontrollable, such as an airplane with a hydraulic flight control system with only one hydraulic pump;
(4) Aircraft unable to comply with § 91.117(a) in normal cruise configuration; and
(5) Rocket-powered aircraft.

IFR flight in IMC is aloud in a properly equipped and maintained ELSA provided the pilot is rated and current. The POH must be changed to include:
"Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in § 91.205(d) are installed, operational, compliant with the performance requirements of, and maintained per the applicable regulations."

All references to "VFR only" must be removed.

Please tell me if I have missed something.
Sorry, but I grabbed the wrong section. I should have grabbed Appendix D-1 item 49 not 50.

Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in § 91.205(d) are installed, operational, compliant with the performance requirements of, and maintained per the applicable regulations. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning aircraft to service. (49)
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  #23  
Old 08-04-2017, 06:48 AM
PilotBrent PilotBrent is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
The current operating limitations issued to E-LSA RV-12's states the aircraft is approved for day VFR only, unless properly equipped for night operations. They never mention anything about being approved for IFR if properly equipped.

I agree that once certified, an E-LSA is a full fledged experimental (which can even be extensively modified as long as the modifications don't change its performance to be outside the LSA performance requirements), but all experimentals must abide by the operating limitations that are attached to the airworthiness certificate, regardless of whether you think the ASTM requirement is still relevant.

If anyone owns an E-LSA RV-12 that has operating limitations that specifically state that IFR is allowed if properly equipped, I would like to hear from you (private message is fine).

Scott, FYI, directly from my op/limitations (issued 12/28/2013) - ELSA.

(10) This aircraft is to be operated under VFR day only.

(11) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 14 CFR 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR day only.


I already had the lights installed so I had assumed I was fully cleared to flight at night (fly under Private cert.) Had also assumed, that if I added appropriate equipment that I could legally fly in instrument flight conditions, not that I have any plans of doing that in an RV-12 but it appears that door was left open.
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  #24  
Old 08-04-2017, 09:42 PM
N456TS N456TS is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotBrent View Post
Scott, FYI, directly from my op/limitations (issued 12/28/2013) - ELSA.

(10) This aircraft is to be operated under VFR day only.

(11) After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 14 CFR 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR day only.
There you go - third party confirmation. This paragraph should be the norm, not the exception. If someone has an E-LSA lacking this in the OL, I suggest you call up your DAR and have them correct it. Experimental is the core of aviation!
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  #25  
Old 08-05-2017, 06:19 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N456TS View Post
There you go - third party confirmation. This paragraph should be the norm, not the exception. If someone has an E-LSA lacking this in the OL, I suggest you call up your DAR and have them correct it. Experimental is the core of aviation!
The actual wording has changed since then but the effect is the same. Current wording is:

19. Day VFR flight operations are authorized.
Night flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in § 91.205(c) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91.
Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in § 91.205(d) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of the person returning the aircraft to service. (41)
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Last edited by Mel : 08-05-2017 at 07:24 AM.
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  #26  
Old 08-05-2017, 09:54 AM
Driftdown Driftdown is offline
 
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This is the FAA's stance, at least for type certified aircraft that are not approved for IFR flight.

ORDER 8900.1, Volume 5.

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91 , sections (§§) 91.109 , 91.205 , and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413 . An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.
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  #27  
Old 08-05-2017, 10:41 AM
Steenos Steenos is offline
 
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Will the Fuel Injected engine on the RV12iS change that at all?
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  #28  
Old 08-05-2017, 11:08 AM
Driftdown Driftdown is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steenos View Post
Will the Fuel Injected engine on the RV12iS change that at all?
No.
That withstanding, the RV-12 must be properly instrumented and equipped for the instrument training flight.

Last edited by Driftdown : 08-05-2017 at 11:16 AM.
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  #29  
Old 08-05-2017, 01:11 PM
Steenos Steenos is offline
 
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I'm just asking because I am instrument rated. So there's no way me as an instrument rated pilot can fly an rv12 in IMC? or are we just talking about instrument training?
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  #30  
Old 08-05-2017, 01:31 PM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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If your RV-12 is Amateur built, the operating limitations will state that only day VFR is approved UNLESS it is appropriately equipped IAW the FAR's for night and/or instrument flight. So, equip it properly and you can fly it IMC. Check your Operating Limitations. The new ones issued today and for quite a while have this verbiage mentioned above.

Vic
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