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  #21  
Old 07-17-2017, 09:47 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburntsts View Post
Just a few clarifications. The repairman's certificate for E-AB doesn't expire but is tied to a specific airframe and for owners without the certificate the condition inspection on an E-AB aircraft doesn't require an A&P with IA (like it does for a standard certificated annual), just a regular A&P can sign off.
Correct
And if the holder of the Repairmans Cert. is willing to do the condition inspections after sale of the airplane (to a friend for example), they can still do that.
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  #22  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:38 PM
Top Cat Top Cat is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Fort Mill SC
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I looked at several LSAs before deciding on an SLSA RV-12.

First though, I would say think about what your personal 'mission' is. I say this because everyone is different and at different phases of their aviation life. For me I retired after 30 odd years of professional flying from night freight to corporate to major airline. During that time I owned and restored a DH82a Tiger Moth and took it to multiple fly-ins and airshows to the point that I now love the simplicity and great reward of owning and flying an RV-12.
And enjoy flying from my quiet field when and where I want with minimum fuss.

I chose SLSA because I wanted a new airplane which would last me the rest of my flying days if I decided to keep the 12. A hangar buddy recently completed a beautiful -12 build but it took 6 years. Whilst not averse to building the time and tools required to me are too daunting. I've flown my SLSA ,which was wonderfully built and has been extremely reliable, almost 350 hours in 3 years and find it easy to operate on my own.
I get around 4.8 gph flying at 5300 rpm and with the wheel fairings get 118-120kts easily. Visibility is great and I ordered it with all the available options at the time for about $90k less than a heavier Tecnam I was looking at.

Whilst there have been a few frustrations from time to time more to do with ownership in general I have no regrets whatsoever in selecting the RV-12.

Lastly, there are more Rv-12s for sale on line because so many have been built or bought as SLSA. Compared to say 38 or so Tecnam P2008s on the register which I was also looking at.

Last edited by Top Cat : 07-17-2017 at 02:20 PM.
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  #23  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:47 PM
Manchu16 Manchu16 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Enterprise, AL
Posts: 5
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Thank you all for the great responses and the PMs.

I do want to build eventually, but not right now unless that is the only way to get what I want. It is only for a lack of time and a space that I can call mine to complete the build. In my line of work you learn a lot about how to keep the bird healthy and in the air. I am not an A&P, but I have worked hand in hand with many a great one.

When I think of flying an airplane that grosses out at almost half of the weight of fuel in my current ride, it does make me think how that ride is going. I have had the pleasure of flying in an RV-12 but it was perfect CAVU with 0 wind.

Please keep the thoughts coming they really do help more than I can explain.

One other question. I realize that there are regs around max cruise for an LSA, 120 KT. Will the 12 really get up there with 100HP and sustain it? My training in a T-34C would call out a 214KT cruise at altitude and the only time we saw that was in an aggressive decent from altitude. More realistically, we would plan on 176KT cruise.

Any war stories about some one else, of course, that has experienced better sustained cruise speeds in a 12? Bottom line is the 120 reality, a dream in a dive, or something that requires powering back so you don't bust it.
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  #24  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:08 PM
PilotBrent PilotBrent is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hackettstown, NJ
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You can read about the various speeds/altitudes and prop pitch combinations on here (hotly debated at times). But with wheel pants I consistently see 120-123 kts true at near full throttle/just under 5,500 rpm. Will "outrun" local C172s!

With the ground adjustable prop you can fine tune the cruise speed/climb performance to suit you - some guys who sacrifice climb perf. to squeeze out a few more kts in cruise. Not sure its worth doing that, especially in the summer, but that's why its called 'experimental'.

Good luck with your decision. (BTW, not a big fan of the title you choose for this thread. I've done a few things I regret, but my -12 isn't even close to any of them!)
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RV-12, N913BC
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  #25  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:29 PM
Top Cat Top Cat is offline
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Fort Mill SC
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My RV-12, like Pilot Brent's, will easily do the LSA 120 knot 'limit'. Compared to the Pipers and Cessnas that I learned to fly in, the RV-12 outperforms them in both speed and fuel economy.
I usually fly at 5300RPM but at 5000 I can get 110kts and 4.5 gph.

Taking off the RV-12, to me, with just me and full fuel, feels like an airplane attached to the engine since there is so much power to spare. Here in baking hot SC with DAs over 2000' I can get 900+ fpm and in the winter 1500'+.

I flew mine solo home to SC from Vans in OR and it was a great trip! Sitting at 9500' over West Texas doing 135 over the ground on auto-pilot whilst I had my sandwich and soda was just awesome.
The SkyView with ADSB provides almost as much capability as the airliners I flew.

Made in the USA with a great resource of owners and builders I'm convinced I made the right choice.
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  #26  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:58 PM
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rongawer rongawer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brentwood, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchu16 View Post
Any war stories about some one else, of course, that has experienced better sustained cruise speeds in a 12? Bottom line is the 120 reality, a dream in a dive, or something that requires powering back so you don't bust it.
I personally started building an RV-12 for the economy of O&M plus the simple build process - when compared to any of the others RV's. It will (still building) give me a fun, low cost commuter that will make the Pancake breakfast runs a lot for cost effective, adding the joy of ownership.

One of the drivers for me was the LSA driver's license medical aspect that attracted me as something flying to the day I hang it up. But now that I'm flying under BasicMed, if I had it to do over again, I would probably have built an RV-9A. I've flown most of the RV line and don't think any of them are a bad choice. My current plan is to start building an RV-10 right away, once I get my -12 done. And that's the last aspect - it's fun to build.

But if you're just buying, I think you owe it to yourself to go fly a couple of them and choose one that fits about 80% of your typical missions.

Oh, just a quick clarification, the actual airspeed limitation is "120 KCAS at sea level at maximum continuous power"... which could mean faster true airspeed cruise speeds at altitude greater than 120KTAS. Although, if you want to cruise much faster, then that is where the other models come in.

I agree with previous posters that the RV-12 is more about enjoying the ride. To me it's more about having a great view in a fun, easy to fly, low cost package and less about getting "there" fast.
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- RV-12 N975G, SN 120840, Build in progress...finally on the finishing kit, so, something like 90% done and 90% left to go.
- 1975 B58 Baron, N1975G (a bottomless money pit that makes building an RV look like lunch money, but it's a great airplane, hauls the family and my wife likes two engines...go figure)
- 1961 A33 Debonair, N433JC (R.I.P.)
- RV7A; didn't finish it and donated to kid's club
- Zenith CH601XL; flying somewhere in Louisiana https://youtu.be/wa_Y_A_rP_8
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  #27  
Old 07-17-2017, 03:04 PM
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DaleB DaleB is offline
 
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Location: Omaha, NE (KMLE)
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I see 120 TAS if I push the throttle in a little. Some days I can get 123, maybe even 125 occasionally. I usually prefer to pull it back a little, fly 110-115, save some gas. If I push it I'll burn over 6 GPH, but I think I've been a little over-pitched.

Normally climbing out on takeoff feels about like a kite on a string. On a HOT, muggy day, 3000+ DA, loaded down at about max gross, it still out-climbed the typical 172s and Cherokees in which I spent my training time.

Like I said before... the RV-12 will do every bit of what Van's claims it will. The only real departure I see from their spec is the range... I don't know where on earth they got those numbers, but I plan for 350 nm at most.
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  #28  
Old 07-17-2017, 05:19 PM
Dave12 Dave12 is offline
 
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Location: Elkton, Md.
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I find that the 12 is much more comfortable to fly than the 6/7/9's. By design it is just roomier. It is also easier to get in and out of. You don't have to step on the seat either. I have been on the 14 fence for several years. Every time I get ready to pull the trigger all I have to do is fly this great airplane and its back to indecision time. If I fly it cross country I usually fly early as it's wing loading is a bit low. The Rotax is truly excellent. I work on lycs and conts every day and the Rotax will hold it's own against them any time. I like the 12 so much I have built 2 of them. The second one took 6 months. They are very easy to build. Ken Krueger hit a grand slam with this one. 02.
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  #29  
Old 07-17-2017, 11:33 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave12 View Post
If I fly it cross country I usually fly early as it's wing loading is a bit low.
Perhaps a better way to describe it would be..... "the wing loading of Light Sport Aircraft is a bit low".
It is the nature of the beast so to speak.
It is not possible to design an airplane that truly meets the LSA performance requirements (45 Kt no flap stall speed, etc) without having a bit lower wing loading.
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Any opinions expressed in this message are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.

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RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #30  
Old 07-31-2017, 09:52 AM
Manchu16 Manchu16 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Enterprise, AL
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Sorry for going dark for a bit. Had to make a trip out to the field with the crew, but back now. Great information shared by all, thank you very much for putting up with my questions.

I had a chance to fly in a RV-12 that is based out east of Ozark. I walked away with many positives; great visibility, solid airframe, new avionics,... I have to admit it was nice to have a very simplistic scan and a few switches / knobs to deal with.

I do have a few questions /comments though.

I am not a short guy, 5'9", but I could barely reach the brakes. Seat was in the forward of the two positions but still was tip-towing. I will need to figure out an option to go further forward or take the wood blocks off of one of the kids tricycles.

Beautiful departure weather with only a few wing dips on climb out. Nothing very sharp, but 5-10 degrees to the left / right. I generally felt coordinated according to my butt and the ball on the climb. I did notice the nose wanted to hunt back and forth (yaw) with any bump. Is that normal?

Approach was a different story. Hit the bumps decending to 2,000 AGL. Same hunting of the nose and slight deflections of the aircraft (10-15 degrees) that were easily handled with the rudder. Albeit with my toes. On approach, completely different experience. Felt like I was in a washing machine trying to hold the glide slope. I did not get a chance to experience ground effect, but felt the landing would be a doozie. The owner, let me fly a few low passes but he handled the final landing. He did much better, as I would have expected, but still some fast hands/feet on final keeping the bird on target. Is that a normal experience?

I did not get a chance to fly later that day to compare, but just watching a 172 doing circuits at 1100 local (Central) I would have called it light ground turbulence. Some sharp wing deflections during pattern ops. Winds were 8-10 KTS 30 degrees to the left of the runway heading.

I would equate the turbulence handling very much like a C150, well up until the approach.

J-
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