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  #31  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:08 AM
Carl Froehlich's Avatar
Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
. SNIP......So, for me the decision would be simple. I'll take the accessory case triggers for a 4-cyl, and crank triggers for a 540....SNIP.
Dan's logic is spot on. As I have had personal (bad) experience with the LightSpeed variant in these discussions I would never consider a crank sensor for a dual EI install. Others will violently disagree with me but shoot fire, that is why be build instead of buy.

So I'm left in the valley of waiting for the six cylinder pMag. Considering the 700 hours of fauless dual pMag operation in the RV-8A, taking with Brad at eMag and reviewing the new 200T series ignition documentation, I'm happy with my decision to wait. Now with the waiting period end in sight it looks like I'll get the ignitions just before the 500 hour check is due on the Slick mags.

Carl
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  #32  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:31 AM
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P-mags are a special case. On one had, they are largely self-contained, and offer internal power in the event of ship's power interruption. On the other hand, being self contained and self powered means considerable complexity as compared to the previous 4-cyl trigger example. Complexity tends to lower reliability, while KIS is seldom the wrong path.

The advance schedule appears to be wrong as a soup sandwich for operation at best power mixture, the result being high CHT for no gain. Control of timing requires purchasing a separate control device, and even then it doesn't appear possible to dual map for both ROP and LOP ops. And oddly enough, the P-mag external wiring and switching requirements are significant.

Yes, I too think Brad is a nice guy, and the whole E-mag crew bends over backwards to support the product. The product itself benefits from a lot of operating maturity; it's better than it once was. However, given all factors....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
Dan's logic is spot on.......So I'm left in the valley of waiting for the six cylinder pMag.
Thank you Carl, but you do realize a P-mag on the accessory drive end of a 6-cyl would be my worst case example?
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RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390

Last edited by DanH : 08-13-2017 at 07:38 AM.
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  #33  
Old 08-13-2017, 09:24 AM
Chkaharyer99 Chkaharyer99 is offline
 
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Location: Pilot Hill, CA
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Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
I know that this is directed at Ross, but the answer is "yes". I worked with a guy last year doing exactly that.
Thanks Michael.

Would two SDS LCD programmers, and one SDS EM-5 (Dual Channel) be required to operate two SDS EI's as previously described?

..., or could two SDS EI's be operated from one dual channel EM-5 and one LCD SDS programmer?

Michael, any chance I could call you to discuss your experience with SDS?

Thanks
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  #34  
Old 08-13-2017, 10:23 AM
Chkaharyer99 Chkaharyer99 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
It doesn't support either statement. The report is a best guess as to cause; there was too much fire and impact damage to be sure of exactly what happened. Factually, the installation was non-standard, a single trigger for two ignition units. Duh.

Moving to belief as to cause, belt damage disconnecting the trigger wires is not an argument against EI, but rather an argument for better wire installation. My brothers, that's true of every wire in every EI brand, regardless of trigger location.

Ross, go ahead and design bolt-on armor for the trigger, something in machined billet robust enough that the wires can't be harmed with a Colt 45. It would cause joy among the concerned, and make a nice profit too.

At the other end, arguments against accessory drives are also weak, given that we have about 80 years of experience with them, with most of the fleet subject to AD for any prevalent failure. Mags and their associated couplers fail a lot, the accessory case drives not so much. Moving to EI, one might look at failure rates for the bearing and trigger components in the triggers themselves, just like the mags.

And there we find the detail which should determine crank-triggering vs accessory case triggering. In terms of mechanical design, a 4-cyl accessory case trigger is very simple, a shaft, two bearings, a wheel, and a pickup. However, all the 6-cyl accessory case pickups seem to require internal gearing, which brings new complications and quality control issues to the party. Plus the 6's are more prone to torsional vibration issues due to the longer crank. So, for me the decision would be simple. I'll take the accessory case triggers for a 4-cyl, and crank triggers for a 540.

All the moving parts in a basic 4-cyl trigger:

Is the the shaft, two bearings, and wheel, depicted and described for 4 cylinder trigger/pickup, a custom fabricated part or is that something that a part that can be procured through AC parts sources and then be modified to work?

Seems like there would be a market for such an item. It mitigates the vulnerability of the crank trigger issues described which I admit do concern me.
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  #35  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:51 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chkaharyer99 View Post
Question for Ross (SDS),

Is it possible to operate a dual SDS electronic Ignition system using only the EM-5 (dual channel) and the SDS LCD programmer (round controller), absent the SDS fuel injection system being full installed and operational?

The reason I ask is:

1. I want dual SDS EI now but don't want the rectangular CPI control modules.
2. I want the ability to eventually change over from my mechanical FI to a SDS FI system.

Titan IO-360.

I know the FI part of my statement is considered off topic/thread drift, so please forgive me.
Yes to question #1 and #2. We just shipped such a system on Friday to a 540 customer. EI for now and he can use most of the parts when he adds the EFI parts later.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, Marcotte M-300, IVO, RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW- 415.8 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi.htm


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  #36  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:54 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas View Post
The aircraft was Glassair 111 VH-USW and the ATSB final report does not really support the above statement.

The final ATSB report can be found at:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...r/ao-2013-221/
If I recall, they found the belt had not be replaced on the recommended schedule and the wiring/ connections to the crank sensor were sub par.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, Marcotte M-300, IVO, RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW- 415.8 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi.htm


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  #37  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:59 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
It doesn't support either statement. The report is a best guess as to cause; there was too much fire and impact damage to be sure of exactly what happened. Factually, the installation was non-standard, a single trigger for two ignition units. Duh.

Moving to belief as to cause, belt damage disconnecting the trigger wires is not an argument against EI, but rather an argument for better wire installation. My brothers, that's true of every wire in every EI brand, regardless of trigger location.

Ross, go ahead and design bolt-on armor for the trigger, something in machined billet robust enough that the wires can't be harmed with a Colt 45. It would cause joy among the concerned, and make a nice profit too.

At the other end, arguments against accessory drives are also weak, given that we have about 80 years of experience with them, with most of the fleet subject to AD for any prevalent failure. Mags and their associated couplers fail a lot, the accessory case drives not so much. Moving to EI, one might look at failure rates for the bearing and trigger components in the triggers themselves, just like the mags.

And there we find the detail which should determine crank-triggering vs accessory case triggering. In terms of mechanical design, a 4-cyl accessory case trigger is very simple, a shaft, two bearings, a wheel, and a pickup. However, all the 6-cyl accessory case pickups seem to require internal gearing, which brings new complications and quality control issues to the party. Plus the 6's are more prone to torsional vibration issues due to the longer crank. So, for me the decision would be simple. I'll take the accessory case triggers for a 4-cyl, and crank triggers for a 540.

All the moving parts in a basic 4-cyl trigger:

We've had threaded holes in both our 3.25 and 3.50 inch crank sensors mounts for some time specifically to attach any hall sensor cable armor the user desires which mates with his front baffling. This was in response to concerns voiced by customers and others here on VAF.

I quite agree with most of what Dan says here. Do the best installation you can.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, Marcotte M-300, IVO, RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW- 415.8 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi.htm


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  #38  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:01 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chkaharyer99 View Post
Thanks Michael.

Would two SDS LCD programmers, and one SDS EM-5 (Dual Channel) be required to operate two SDS EI's as previously described?

..., or could two SDS EI's be operated from one dual channel EM-5 and one LCD SDS programmer?

Michael, any chance I could call you to discuss your experience with SDS?

Thanks
Just need one programmer to operate dual EM-5 ECUs for dual EI or dual EFI/EI.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, Marcotte M-300, IVO, RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW- 415.8 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi.htm


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  #39  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:56 PM
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johnbright johnbright is offline
 
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Location: Newport News, Va
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
(SDS crank sensor) belt vulnerability is a non issue. The mount and sensor are **** for stout and the wiring can easily be armored.
Hi Michael... got any photos of armor to share?

Thanks,
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Conti Titan 360, 8.5:1, vert sump, SDSEFI EM-5, inj in inj ports.
60A main, 20(30?)A backup, single battery.
Newport News, Va
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  #40  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:17 PM
Chkaharyer99 Chkaharyer99 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
Just need one programmer to operate dual EM-5 ECUs for dual EI or dual EFI/EI.
Great news. Thank you!
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