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  #21  
Old 08-04-2017, 02:14 PM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Location: Hubbard Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
I am a believer in one electronic ignition and one mag, as I think it provides the best all around solution, both in economies and in redundancy. Having been in technology for most of my life, I am a believer in backups.

Yes, the mag could be a weak point, and there are always the stories about catastrophic failures of mags. The weak point of the mag is the impulse coupling, and I leave that part off. The argument about needing to be able to hand prop it doesn't really hold a lot of weight, as there are nice compact jump start battery packs that you can carry these days, and it's a lot safer than hand propping your aircraft. I have personally jump started IO-540's with them, I always have one in the back of my airplane, and I regularly charge it.

The 500 hour overhaul on a slick direct drive mag is really cheap, and you can do it yourself for less than $75.

Vic
I agree 99% with Vic's philosophy...

I prefer to have the one mag with an impulse coupling though, despite its short comings. It can also be inspected well at the normal 500 Hr interval.

I have personally had to hand prop for a start at a remote location where we would otherwise have been stranded for quite some time.
It was not because of a dead battery, but a dead starter motor.
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Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #22  
Old 08-04-2017, 02:53 PM
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FasGlas FasGlas is online now
 
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Location: Prescott, AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tspear View Post
Curious, for those who went electronic ignition.
How many electrical backup strategies do you have, and have you tested them?

Tim
When I changed to dual ElectroAir's I went with 2 Lion batteries. Both are smaller, weigh less and have more power than the single PC680 that wore out. I run the ignitions power on one and the A/C on the other. They link or bypass with a small "Backup" switch on the panel. Both are diode protected from each other and both charge with one Alt. Yes, I can shut down the master and switch on the backup and both ignitions run, along with one EFIS. Tested.
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  #23  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:37 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Location: Newport, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse View Post
The 500 hour overhaul on a slick direct drive mag is really cheap, and you can do it yourself for less than $75.

Vic
The 500 hour "inspection" can be cheap if you don't find anything wrong with the mag. The "overhaul" parts can quickly exceed the value of the entire mag.

At a minimum I would change on the 500hr "inspection":
Points Kit ACS $61.95
Brush ACS $12.80


From the manual:

"The following parts must be replaced at overhaul.
Additional parts may require replacement depending on
conditions as determined during magneto inspection. Install
only Unison Replacement Parts.

ALL MAGNETOS
Condenser ACS $138.75
Double Sealed Bearing ACS $46.20
Bearing Cap Assembly ACS $107.75
Coil ACS $385.00
Impulse Coupling ACS $462.00
Oil Seal ACS $12.70
Contact Point Kit ACS $61.95
Rotor Gear ACS $11.55
Distributor Block and Gear ACS $399.95"

Totals to $1625.85 and that does not include finding any other parts that need replaced.

Typical Impulse coupled Slick mag:
ACS list Kelly "Overhauled" mags for ~$615.00 (reports are that these are not overhauled but just inspected and obvious bad parts are replaced)
ACS list Champion "Rebuilt" mags for ~$794.00 (they claim they are same rebuilt to same as new specs)
ACS list a new mag at $1028.00
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Brantel (Brian Chesteen),
RV-7/TU, #72823, N159SB
Lyc. O-360 carbed, HARTZELL BA CS Prop, Dual P-MAGs, Dual Garmin G3X Touch
Track N159SB (KK4LIF)
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Last edited by Brantel : 08-12-2017 at 06:55 PM.
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  #24  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:47 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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The maintenance labor and parts costs of mags are a big reason why so many are dumping one or both mags. Our EI has no moving parts other than the magnets attached to the crankshaft. With an epoxy potted coil pack, there are no things to suffer vibration failures as on mags, no spinning parts, no bearings, no wearing parts, the electronics are isolated from engine heat and vibration in the cabin.

Combine this spark hardware with reliable electronics having literally tens of millions of hours of real world validation on them and you have stuff which is far more reliable than mags with no maintenance required. One of our bench test ECUs had 145,000 hours on it when we changed it over to a newer spec model. It ran 24/7 for over 16 years.
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Turbo Subaru EJ22, Marcotte M-300, IVO, RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW- 417.4 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi.htm


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  #25  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:25 PM
Chkaharyer99 Chkaharyer99 is offline
 
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Location: Pilot Hill, CA
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Question for Ross (SDS),

Is it possible to operate a dual SDS electronic Ignition system using only the EM-5 (dual channel) and the SDS LCD programmer (round controller), absent the SDS fuel injection system being full installed and operational?

The reason I ask is:

1. I want dual SDS EI now but don't want the rectangular CPI control modules.
2. I want the ability to eventually change over from my mechanical FI to a SDS FI system.

Titan IO-360.

I know the FI part of my statement is considered off topic/thread drift, so please forgive me.
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RV-8

Last edited by Chkaharyer99 : 08-12-2017 at 10:51 PM. Reason: To add, "CPI" before control modules for clarity.
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  #26  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:08 AM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
It was a Glasair and maintenance and workmanship lapses were found to be the main causes.
The aircraft was Glassair 111 VH-USW and the ATSB final report does not really support the above statement.

The final ATSB report can be found at:

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...r/ao-2013-221/

This should be mandatory reading for all builders considering dual electronic ignitions of the Lightspeed (or similar) type.

I've been flying for decades and I've never heard of a single incident of a plane coming down because both magnetos failed simultaneously. But despite the fact that there are not a lot of dual EI aircraft flying there have been numerous incidents of dual EI systems failing simultaneously (including PMags) resulting in complete loss of power.

But people often believe what they want to believe.

One EI and one mag for me.
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Last edited by Captain Avgas : 08-13-2017 at 12:27 AM.
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  #27  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:11 AM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Location: Newport, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
The maintenance labor and parts costs of mags are a big reason why so many are dumping one or both mags. Our EI has no moving parts other than the magnets attached to the crankshaft. With an epoxy potted coil pack, there are no things to suffer vibration failures as on mags, no spinning parts, no bearings, no wearing parts, the electronics are isolated from engine heat and vibration in the cabin.

Combine this spark hardware with reliable electronics having literally tens of millions of hours of real world validation on them and you have stuff which is far more reliable than mags with no maintenance required. One of our bench test ECUs had 145,000 hours on it when we changed it over to a newer spec model. It ran 24/7 for over 16 years.
Ross,

If I were not already half pregnant with an existing Pmag, you would be getting an order for a dual CPI. The only thing I had never considered was the risk of an alternator belt taking out the timing sensor but what are the odds of that? I love the looks of the quality of your components and the price!
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Brantel (Brian Chesteen),
RV-7/TU, #72823, N159SB
Lyc. O-360 carbed, HARTZELL BA CS Prop, Dual P-MAGs, Dual Garmin G3X Touch
Track N159SB (KK4LIF)
Like EAA Chapter 1494 on Facebook
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  #28  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:23 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Location: Mojave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
Ross,

If I were not already half pregnant with an existing Pmag, you would be getting an order for a dual CPI. The only thing I had never considered was the risk of an alternator belt taking out the timing sensor but what are the odds of that? I love the looks of the quality of your components and the price!
You might take another look at the price difference between Pmag and CPI before you get "completely pregnant". Ill bet you could sell your existing Pmag for more money than a new CPI, so you would still be ahead.

The belt vulnerability is a non issue. The mount and sensor are **** for stout and the wiring can easily be armored.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI instalation in work
RV-8 - Flying
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65 -flying
PA-20-inspired "family truckster" -in work
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  #29  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:25 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chkaharyer99 View Post
Question for Ross (SDS),

Is it possible to operate a dual SDS electronic Ignition system using only the EM-5 (dual channel) and the SDS LCD programmer (round controller), absent the SDS fuel injection system being full installed and operational?

The reason I ask is:

1. I want dual SDS EI now but don't want the rectangular CPI control modules.
2. I want the ability to eventually change over from my mechanical FI to a SDS FI system.

Titan IO-360.

I know the FI part of my statement is considered off topic/thread drift, so please forgive me.
I know that this is directed at Ross, but the answer is "yes". I worked with a guy last year doing exactly that.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI instalation in work
RV-8 - Flying
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65 -flying
PA-20-inspired "family truckster" -in work
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  #30  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:45 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Location: 08A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas View Post
The aircraft was Glassair 111 VH-USW and the ATSB final report does not really support the above statement.
It doesn't support either statement. The report is a best guess as to cause; there was too much fire and impact damage to be sure of exactly what happened. Factually, the installation was non-standard, a single trigger for two ignition units. Duh.

Moving to belief as to cause, belt damage disconnecting the trigger wires is not an argument against EI, but rather an argument for better wire installation. My brothers, that's true of every wire in every EI brand, regardless of trigger location.

Ross, go ahead and design bolt-on armor for the trigger, something in machined billet robust enough that the wires can't be harmed with a Colt 45. It would cause joy among the concerned, and make a nice profit too.

At the other end, arguments against accessory drives are also weak, given that we have about 80 years of experience with them, with most of the fleet subject to AD for any prevalent failure. Mags and their associated couplers fail a lot, the accessory case drives not so much. Moving to EI, one might look at failure rates for the bearing and trigger components in the triggers themselves, just like the mags.

And there we find the detail which should determine crank-triggering vs accessory case triggering. In terms of mechanical design, a 4-cyl accessory case trigger is very simple, a shaft, two bearings, a wheel, and a pickup. However, all the 6-cyl accessory case pickups seem to require internal gearing, which brings new complications and quality control issues to the party. Plus the 6's are more prone to torsional vibration issues due to the longer crank. So, for me the decision would be simple. I'll take the accessory case triggers for a 4-cyl, and crank triggers for a 540.

All the moving parts in a basic 4-cyl trigger:

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Barrett IO-390

Last edited by DanH : 08-13-2017 at 08:42 AM.
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