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  #21  
Old 08-06-2017, 08:21 AM
F1Boss's Avatar
F1Boss F1Boss is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 605
Default Think: NASCAR restrictor plate (Stock 540 sump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Mike, what is the diameter of the sump opening?
Not big enough the 540 to breathe good at higher RPM - it seems to stop power at about 285hp. Sorry to tell you, but the fabled 300HP *stock sump* 540s do not exist.

A fella I knew way back when actually did a mod to increase the 540 sump inlet to more match the RSA-10 setup. He tested on a flow bench and got good results, but never proceeded - I think due to the fabrication & assembly SNAFUs. I thought it was a good idea for the 540 boys...danged if I can recall the HP claimed - SORRY!

As an aside, I did get to fly a Thunderbolt 540 a few weeks back - MOST amazing CHTs and EGT I have ever seen: they follow a straight line across the monitor at all power settings. Amazing. The intake looked alot like the Brand B sump and tubes...which produces a lot of torque...and MP...

Mike: if you can figure out how to enlarge that hole in the sump to fit the AFP cast elbow...your South Bend lathe will be very busy!

Best,
Mark
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  #22  
Old 08-06-2017, 10:31 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 3,663
Default

Dan,

I'm away from the shop, but I will put a caliper on my sump later today.

Mark (et,al)

This adapter was just a quick way to adapt the SDS parts and baseline the engine in its "stock" configuration. I know this sump is beyond help from an efficient airflow perspective. My plan all along is to change over to the much more elegant Lycoming 300 HP based sump.

We've discussed the potential improvements of one sump type vs another many times on this forum, so I intend to find out for myself. The SDS individual fuel trim will allow me to tune out any airflow imbalance in the stock updraft sump so that a swap to the "tuned" 300 HP version will validate any "true" change in performance.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI instalation in work
RV-8 - Flying
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65 -flying
PA-20-inspired "family truckster" -in work

Last edited by Toobuilder : 08-06-2017 at 10:37 AM.
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  #23  
Old 08-06-2017, 02:03 PM
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F1Boss F1Boss is offline
 
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Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 605
Default AHA!

Good news, Mike:

"My plan all along is to change over to the much more elegant Lycoming 300 HP based sump."

Outstanding!

Best, Mark
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  #24  
Old 08-06-2017, 02:49 PM
Toobuilder's Avatar
Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Location: Mojave
Posts: 3,663
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Dan,

The bore in my sump measures 2.255 diameter.

Mark,

Though my upgrade to the SDS EFI seems like a great time to move to the new sump configuration, I am interested in documenting the performance directly attributed to the EFI. I was able to chart the performance benefits from dual magnetos to the single SDS CPI, and then once again when I went dual CPI, so I think I have a pretty good handle on an ignition scheme optimized for my mission profile. I am hoping to take the same tack with the fuel side. Once I get that as far as practical then I can change the sump, optimize, document and compare. Follow on changes will be playing with induction and header tube length to see if I can find any hidden performance there. These kinds of changes would be really time consuming and expensive to accomodate with the mechanical fuel injection, but the SDS system will change with a few keystrokes.

All that said (and my reason for posting in this thread), the 80mm SDS TB on the stock updraft sump is unlikely to provide any benefits vs a RSA-5 sized version, but the big TB certainly wont hurt anything and is still shorter than the RSA-5 by quite a bit. It should easily fit in a stock RV-10 cowl.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI instalation in work
RV-8 - Flying
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65 -flying
PA-20-inspired "family truckster" -in work
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  #25  
Old 08-06-2017, 03:52 PM
bluskydreamin bluskydreamin is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: midwest
Posts: 35
Default

Great info! always amazed to see the experiments going on in the field. I'm waiting for Jeff S. at Tbolt to get me a quote on their cold air sump option for the 540. Sounds like he is covered up with the OSH response and engine work.
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  #26  
Old 08-10-2017, 10:43 AM
TClinton TClinton is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Spruce Creek Fly-In, Florida
Posts: 19
Default IO-540 intake sump

I was wondering if the Lycoming 300 HP sump (part number 74833) will bolt in place of the stock sump on the 260 HP C4B5? What changes would have to be made to use it? What are the drawbacks of it? I like the Raven cold air intake because it will fit under the cowl on the F1 Rocket without mods supposedly. However, because of the different intake tubes we would still have to get a different exhaust system. I like my Vetterman exhaust as is.
The BPE setup and Sky Dynamics may be great but are just too expensive for me to justify. It seems possible that the sump from the 300 HP version would get us the larger air intake that we need to make more power without the large expense of the other Cold air systems plus a new exhaust. From what I have read, it's not really the "cold" air that we need to make closer to 300 HP. It is MORE air and longer runs from air intake to the intake port.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tony Clinton. F1 flying 3.5 years. Love it!!!
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  #27  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:37 PM
TClinton TClinton is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Spruce Creek Fly-In, Florida
Posts: 19
Default IO-540 intake sump

I was wondering if the Lycoming 300 HP sump (part number 74833) will bolt in place of the stock sump on the 260 HP C4B5? What changes would have to be made to use it? What are the drawbacks of it? I like the Raven cold air intake because it will fit under the cowl on the F1 Rocket without mods supposedly. However, because of the different intake tubes we would still have to get a different exhaust system. I like my Vetterman exhaust as is.
The BPE setup and Sky Dynamics may be great but are just too expensive for me to justify. It seems possible that the sump from the 300 HP version would get us the larger air intake that we need to make more power without the large expense of the other Cold air systems plus a new exhaust. From what I have read, it's not really the "cold" air that we need to make closer to 300 HP. It is MORE air and longer runs from air intake to the intake port.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tony Clinton. F1 flying 3.5 years. Love it!!!
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  #28  
Old 08-15-2017, 09:30 PM
bluskydreamin bluskydreamin is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: midwest
Posts: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TClinton View Post
I was wondering if the Lycoming 300 HP sump (part number 74833) will bolt in place of the stock sump on the 260 HP C4B5? What changes would have to be made to use it? What are the drawbacks of it? I like the Raven cold air intake because it will fit under the cowl on the F1 Rocket without mods supposedly. However, because of the different intake tubes we would still have to get a different exhaust system. I like my Vetterman exhaust as is.
The BPE setup and Sky Dynamics may be great but are just too expensive for me to justify. It seems possible that the sump from the 300 HP version would get us the larger air intake that we need to make more power without the large expense of the other Cold air systems plus a new exhaust. From what I have read, it's not really the "cold" air that we need to make closer to 300 HP. It is MORE air and longer runs from air intake to the intake port.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tony Clinton. F1 flying 3.5 years. Love it!!!
Tony,

I'm wondering the same thing - Will the stock Lycoming RSA-10 capable sump contact the -10's engine mount like the BPE offering? It is available with the Tbolt 540.
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  #29  
Old 08-17-2017, 05:53 PM
TClinton TClinton is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Spruce Creek Fly-In, Florida
Posts: 19
Smile 540 sump

I found out a few things that I wanted to share. I apologize but I don't have many answers for the RV-10 guys. My aircraft is an F1 Rocket. Our cowl is really snug! There are several options but they all have pros and cons. Just like everything! The RV-10 guys can almost certainly fit some of these on there aircraft more easily than we can. The sump off of the 300 HP Lycoming is the K1A5 sump. It is from the angle valve 540 and will bolt right on. Unfortunately, the 2 hole intake is on the back side not the front where we would want it. So, IMHO this is not a good solution for me. The BPE Cold air sump is about $4300 and is supposed to work really well. Unfortunately, it comes down about 3.5" more when the required new exhaust is added. This would require a cowl rework for my airplane and would kinda mess with "looks" a little because of the resulting bulbous bottom cowl. The Sky Dynamics setup is similar and costs even more depending on options. All 3 of these options would require a new exhaust and significant cowl rework.
The Raven Cold Air setup seems like a pretty good compromise. It keeps the stock sump as is but adds an air box on the bottom of the sump. Then, the tubes come from that new air box to the intake port. It is about $1895. You can specify 2 different sizes depending on the size fuel servo you want to use. Of course, the Raven sump also needs a new exhaust but this will supposedly fit under our stock cowl with no cowl rework needed.
The Raven setup would add around 4-5 lbs. The other options may save about 5 lbs. I have decided to just keep my stock sump and Vetterman exhaust for now. I am going to switch the 90 degree elbow that we all use to the Rambo Elbow made by Rod Bower. Also, I am going to switch from my Bendix RSA5 servo to the Airflow Performance FM200. My new engine is being built by Don George in Orlando and is going to get 9.0:1 pistons, and get balanced to within 1/2 gram (like Thunderbolt does). Because I had a failure of the Left Magneto drive bearing (old engine), I am going to put Ross Farnham's SDS CPI on the left side. For now, I'm going to keep a Bendix Mag on the Right side.
I'm hoping for around 275 HP with this setup. It's going to be way better than what I had!!! My old engine had 1 broken ring and 1 Intake lobe was worn way down. If you look at the top of your engine, you can see that each opposing cylinder Intake shares 1 lobe. This is for tighter packaging.
I am certain my old engine was not making full rated power.
Keep the shiny side up!!!
Tony
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  #30  
Old 08-17-2017, 07:14 PM
karrelsj karrelsj is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Vienna
Posts: 8
Default

I have nothing great to add to this thread as of yet, but I can tell you where I am at in this process. On July 3rd I ordered a Thunderbolt YIO-540-EXP. 9.1:1 Compression, Roller Tappets, Dynamic Crank balancing, Static Balancing, Port & Polish, Cylinder Balancing. I also had them add the cold air setup they use on their 580 and 540 L1B5. I intend to put this into a RV-10 with a show planes cowling. I am not sure what is going to fit (and what is going to be in the way), but I should be able to tell you that in a couple of weeks. Show planes thinks the ColdAir setup will fit, but perhaps the air induction will needs some re-work. We shall see shortly...
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