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Cirrus G3 Turbo -VS- RV 10

Subwaybob

Well Known Member
Ok, I'm very much considering building a 10 orrrrr buying a G3 Cirrus. I don't give a flip about the chute, but man.... They sure look like beemers inside those things. The 10's can look pretty spiffy too for sure. I would have to put the full interior in the 10 to be happy. I have a 7 and it's quite noisy. Keep in mind that I have nothing but seats in it, nothing to dampen the sound. I'm guessing that I would put around $225,000 in the 10 and the comperable Cirrus would cost me $400 - $500K. (Newer one, G1000 panel etc.) Now, that's a big number, but I'm willing to live with it if I am comfortable in it until I upgrade to a turboprop. (That's another discussion...)
I THINK I can build the 10 in about 14+ months. I built my 7 in 10 months. Both were/will be Q-build.

So anyone who may have experience with both, I sure would appreciate your input. Would love to know what anyone thought about noise, seating etc... Here's my partial list of positives.

Rv10
Cost
Maintenance (No waiting on a mechanic to sign off. LOVE that)
Instruments are half price (Cost again)
TO/Land distance is tops
Ability to put anything in it I want without a sign off (Mechanic)
No chute to repack every 10 years
Much more I'm sure....

Cirrus Turbo
FIKI
Incredible interior
20+ knots faster than a 10 (up high at a cost of a lot of fuel)
Chute for when I have a heart attack and the wife hasn't learned to land yet
Already put together (At a significant cost)
No fiberglass to breath and give me cancer (See above)
Side stick (I like that it's out of the way)

Thank you all for the help.
 
Annual

I have heard rumor that the average Annual Inspection on a Cirrus is about $15k. There are a whole lot of expensive things to go wrong on a Cirrus.
 
The Cirrus handles like a truck compared to the -10. The side yoke is spring loaded to center. I have a friend that owns one, it sure seems to need a lot of maintenance. I am a fan of Lycomings, not so much turbocharged Continentals.

Why build a -10, there are some very nice flying planes available for the price range you mentioned.
 
You haven't said what your typical trip load is. Trying to compare typical trips (maybe full fuel for both), the -10 can also carry 4 people (depending on their weights, of course). The G3, 3 people (or only 2 if they average over 180 lbs.).
If you only plan on 1 or 2 people, this doesn't matter. Three or four, it's a real factor.
 
I'm not a fan of either (conventional u/c only for me) but when you compare apples with apples then you need to do so money wise. The two a/c really are diff to each other in many ways so they are not a good comparison to each other.
If wank factor is yr scene the Cirrus has it all over the clunking looking Vans 10 but value for money nothing beats a Vans of any description!
 
The Cirrus is an ifr xc machine with high wing loading. Heavy controls are appropriate for that mission. At one point, van?s advertised the -10 as a four seat sport plane. Higher wing loading, better ride in turbulence at speed. Low wing loading, better takeoff, especially at higher density altitudes.

I?d gladly trade my -8 and -9A for a -10.
 
You might be a redneck, if you land on grass.

Or, you might be an RV-10 owner, if you land on grass.

Very few Cirrus owners take theirs to grass strips, even Triple Tree.
 
I think you are dreaming to build a -10 in 14 months...

$225k is a pretty good number...

Like I said I built my 7 in 10 months. I think If i spend 6 hours a day at 250 days a year (that's 1500 hours), I should be able to get it done in 14-16 months. This is my second one to build, already have all the stupid questions out of the way. :p:D I would love to know what is going to slow me down the most though.

You haven't said what your typical trip load is. Trying to compare typical trips (maybe full fuel for both), the -10 can also carry 4 people (depending on their weights, of course). The G3, 3 people (or only 2 if they average over 180 lbs.).
If you only plan on 1 or 2 people, this doesn't matter. Three or four, it's a real factor.

So, the mission is two adults, two kids under 8. I want it full IFR like my 7. Will do a 750 with 3 10" garmin screens etc.


The Cirrus is an ifr xc machine with high wing loading. Heavy controls are appropriate for that mission. At one point, van?s advertised the -10 as a four seat sport plane. Higher wing loading, better ride in turbulence at speed. Low wing loading, better takeoff, especially at higher density altitudes.

I?d gladly trade my -8 and -9A for a -10.

Cross country is my exact mission. Vacations, etc. RV's are fast and well suited to that I believe.

Hows the noise level in 10's anyone? All general AC are a little loud. I will sound proof this one to the nines...
 
While I use ANR headsets, I have taken mine off in flight and do not think my -10 is any louder than my Grumman Tiger was. I have minimal interior and some heat/sound shielding at the firewall and front side panels as well as the tunnel. Eliminating air leaks around the door made a huge difference.
 
When I got my PPL a few years back, Cirrus invited me to fly one of their planes. I made the appointment for one cold winter eveing and sure enough, a pilot and BRAND NEW 22 showed up at Caldwell airport in northern new jersey. I was looking for where to sign on the dotted line the instant I stepped outside on the ramp. And it was every bit as gorgeous on the inside. Loved flying it. Fast as can be. Quiet. Well mannered. Quite.

There was no way I could afford it. And that wasn't just about the purchase price. It was the upkeep and 19 gallons or so per hour. AND all the ongoing maintenance, and the parachute costs AND the depreciation!!

I'm sure you know all those things. To me, one of the most significant thing about buying an RV-7 (like a ten I believe) is the performance envelope. Almost as fast as a piston plane can go, takeoff and land at virtually any airport (not just the long runway ones), relatively cheap fuel burn, and no wasted space (i.e., no additional lift capacity that I don't need and don't have to pay for in speed distance or fuel). Add in all the other RV benefits like performing the maintenance, and cost versus TSO'ed parts...and for me, a TW undercarriage!

I guess I am saying that I feel like I am getting a much better yield from my RV than I could possibly get out of a Cirrus. If I was to have unlimited funds, then I would buy a Cirrus and get an instrument rating.
 
If you're really thinking Cirrus money, have you thought about the Cessna TTX? I know less than nothing about either one, but a friend who does a lot of corporate flying in literally hundreds of a/c (probably over a hundred *types*), expressed the opinion several years ago that the TTX build quality was miles ahead of the Cirrus. I think it's faster, too.

Charlie
(Just trying to do my part, in making your decision more complicated)
 
It seems excessive cost of ownership, maintenance, insurance and extra fuel burn are way down your list of priorities. Speaking for myself, the RV-10 is the only choice and I?m thrilled Van?s offers this world class plane for a total ownership cost that many can afford.

On your specific questions:
- The cabin top, doors and glass will slow you down. If you paint it yourself you will quickly learn that the RV-10 is a big airplane. I painted mine with the wings and tail off, and my arm went numb trying to hold the gun to keep a wet line. If you get the quick build kits you should expect no less than 24 months to complete - assuming you do the work. The RV-10 was my second project and it took me five years (all slow build and nothing farmed out).
- The avionics you list exceed that needed for full, redundant IFR capability. As I posted before the GTN-750 over the GTN-650 is a waste of money as the increased display is secondary to the EFIS displays. Three full screen EFIS will be problematic to install, unless you get smaller displays. I run dual 10? SkyViews and a GTN-650, plus a couple of analog flight instruments.
- RV-10s can be fast - it depends on the builder. Add a bunch of Lexus interior stuff, AC and such and you will lose speed. Walk the line at Oshkosh and look at the empty weight numbers (if they are telling the truth). There is reason to build them light. I also find, as with many RVs, that speed is lost due to poor rigging. You can add sound insulation to the RV-10 but keep in mind the added weight and the ?point of diminishing returns?. Get a good set of ANR headsets and fly on.

On the side stick stuff. My only experience with side sticks is on a Lancair IV. Hated it. The contols where heavy and provided little feel for the airplane. I would never give up the smooth, coordinated no slop feel of the RV controls.

Carl
 
Good Luck

"Like I said I built my 7 in 10 months. I think If i spend 6 hours a day at 250 days a year (that's 1500 hours)"

It isn't a -7.

It is HUGE compared to a -7.

The cabin top will give you fits and a substantial amount of cussing, as will the doors...

I wish you good luck building a custom -10 in 14 months and 1500 hours...

Data point: I am at 2100+ hours and haven't started on the interior yet...and my Dad and I built a -6...
 
Bob,

Did you do QB Wings & Fuse or was it all SB?

I'm doing a whole QB Kit and I'm projecting 2000 hours to finish, want to know if I need to significantly revise my estimate upwards or not.
 
I have 2 friends that both purchased G6 Platinum series planes last year. They are gorgeous. Definitely faster than my 10 at higher altitudes and the interior is Lexus quality. We have flown cross country together, 1,000 miles or so. They do get to the destination sooner but not by much. I wouldn't make the decision on speed. The handling is much heavier but as someone else mentioned it's built that way for a reason, more truck like than the RV's.

The G6 series does accommodate 4 adults, the earlier models not so much.

The planes are over $800,000 new with options.

Maybe these don't matter to you but much higher costs

Annual
Fuel burn
Insurance


Gary
 
build

I did both QB kits on my -10.

To be fair, my build is not stock...I am using EFII, planearound latches, Aerosport overhead and panels, showplanes cowl and induction, skybolts, etc.

And Steinair is building my panel.

All the mods take time (more than you think)...the OP, however, was pretty clear that he wanted a custom machine, not stock...
 
"It isn't a -7.

It is HUGE compared to a -7.

The cabin top will give you fits and a substantial amount of cussing, as will the doors...

I wish you good luck building a custom -10 in 14 months and 1500 hours...

Data point: I am at 2100+ hours and haven't started on the interior yet...and my Dad and I built a -6...

I am not totally disagreeing with you. I respect the knowledge and thank you. Seems like vans says 2000 hours on the slow build for the 10 and that without all the options. QB is SUPPOSE to knock off 30-40%. I concede that it take people longer but I built mine fast because I didn't take breaks. It takes some time to get back into it if you don't work every day no matter what. So I ask for my planning purposes, are you spending 2-6 hours on the build every day?
 
I am not totally disagreeing with you. I respect the knowledge and thank you. Seems like vans says 2000 hours on the slow build for the 10 and that without all the options. QB is SUPPOSE to knock off 30-40%. I concede that it take people longer but I built mine fast because I didn't take breaks. It takes some time to get back into it if you don't work every day no matter what. So I ask for my planning purposes, are you spending 2-6 hours on the build every day?

I'll give you my experience. I built a 6A a few years ago and now building a 10.

I am retired now and bought the 10 kit to keep me busy. The kit had the emp done and was otherwise at the QB stage. I do everything myself, including making custom parts and doing my own engine work (bought core for O/H). I also have some decent fiberglass and finishing skills, having restored several cars and build a kit Cobra. I expect to finish, including paint, in about fourteen months (9 months into it). I work on the plane pretty much 7 days a week and I have done quite a few customizations, though most lower cost/high functionality. No interior, other than carpet and o/h console. I upholster my own seats.

Larry
 
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I expect to finish, including paint, in about fourteen months (9 months into it). I work on the plane pretty much 7 days a week and I have done quite a few customizations, though most lower cost/high functionality. No interior, other than carpet and o/h console. I upholster my own seats.

Larry

That's good info Larry, Thank you. Everyone told me the 7 would take me 2-3 years too. I'm blessed with enough free time from my businesses to be able to devote more time to it. I also could get mad at it and make it a 10 year project too. :D
 
No

When I work on it, I spend between 2 and 8 hours a day. I purposely did not list the longevity, which is 6 years, because I did not miss any kid functions or family events in that time. Those events do not matter in the HOURS spent, though.

Good for you if you believe you can do it in 14 months. Good luck.

You might want to talk to Vic S, as I think he built a stock one in 18 months...and he has built many, many airplanes...

I wish you luck but I think you are underestimating the task...
 
Just to add my 2cents. I met a guy last week at a bar wearing a Cirrus pullover wind breaker. I went up to him and started talking airplanes, mainly my Christen Eagle II (he was interested in aerobatics). Then I told him I was building an RV10. Talk about someone getting excited. He said he can't wait to sell his Cirrus and build or possibly buy an RV10. Talk about walking away with an RV grin..I had it ear to ear and I just finished my doors.
 
Just to add my 2cents. I met a guy last week at a bar wearing a Cirrus pullover wind breaker. I went up to him and started talking airplanes, mainly my Christen Eagle II (he was interested in aerobatics). Then I told him I was building an RV10. Talk about someone getting excited. He said he can't wait to sell his Cirrus and build or possibly buy an RV10. Talk about walking away with an RV grin..I had it ear to ear and I just finished my doors.

:D:D That's funny!
 
At Copperstate a few years ago I was chatting with a fellow who told me that he bought a brand new Cirrus from the factory and then sold it a year later and bought a nice used RV10. He then said that he lost more on the Cirrus than it cost him to buy the 10 ... and he liked the 10 much better.
 
Saint Aviation

You might call up Jesse at Saint Aviation and get his thoughts on build times, since he's a builder assist shop it would be interesting to see how long it takes him to crank out a 10.
 
I have heard rumor that the average Annual Inspection on a Cirrus is about $15k. There are a whole lot of expensive things to go wrong on a Cirrus.

Nope.

We?ve owned an SR22 for 16 years, we did have one annual that went over $15k, but that was mostly a 10-year chute repack.

Our annuals average about $1800, the only airframe specific things I can recall (other than the chute) are replacement pucks for the nose gear (same as a Mooney) and a flap hinge fairing.

We have replaced a few interior parts for wear and tear after 1650 hours.

Our biggest expense by far has been upgrading avionics over the years.

Most of the maintenance is the normal engine, tires, brakes, light bulbs, etc.

It?s a very reliable airplane. Not great handling, but it?s a cross country travel machine, not a fun Sunday flyer. Excellent IFR platform.
 
How many cylinders have you been through in 1650 hours? I always believed that to be the weak point in the large displacement Conties.

-Marc


Nope.

We?ve owned an SR22 for 16 years, we did have one annual that went over $15k, but that was mostly a 10-year chute repack.

Our annuals average about $1800, the only airframe specific things I can recall (other than the chute) are replacement pucks for the nose gear (same as a Mooney) and a flap hinge fairing.

We have replaced a few interior parts for wear and tear after 1650 hours.

Our biggest expense by far has been upgrading avionics over the years.

Most of the maintenance is the normal engine, tires, brakes, light bulbs, etc.

It?s a very reliable airplane. Not great handling, but it?s a cross country travel machine, not a fun Sunday flyer. Excellent IFR platform.
 
How many cylinders have you been through in 1650 hours? I always believed that to be the weak point in the large displacement Conties.

-Marc

Our experience has been very good with continental cylinders, but our continental airplanes tend to get get used mostly cross-country with long legs running LOP and a small handful of pilots in the family or close friends. We?ve run an IO-520 (Navion) which did toss a cylinder on takeoff once, but that engine had several hundred hours before we bought the airplane.

We?ve owned a 337 with IO-360 six cylinder continentals which we ran 300 hours past TBO on the original twelve cylinders before swapping one engine for a reman for high oil consumption.

The cirrus had a magneto failure (Bendix) which jumped timing around 700 hours and resulted in significant damage from detonation. We?d done the recommended 500 hour IRAN, so TCM replaced the engine under warranty after some grumbling.

The second engine (Technically a ?repair? but the only things not replaced were the data plat and oil sump) developed a crack in the remanufactured crank (oil leak) after about 90 hours and they gave us a third engine. No grumbling that time, it shipped the next day after we sent pictures.

The third engine has run perfectly for the last 700 or so hours.

We?ve never replaced a cylinder in over thirty years of operating continentals, except for the one that had a barrel separation departing KSNA.

It?s not uncommon to replace cylinders before TBO. I think this is more common on the continentals, but the parts are cheaper.
 
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