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RV-4 Operating Costs 2014

W

Whitman

Well Known Member
After my first year of RV-4 ownership. Here are the costs. I consider fixed costs a sunk cost so only focus on the variable costs like fuel/oil when deciding to fly or not.

Annual Inspection: 3150
Hangar: 1080
Insurance: 1299
Other Mx: 350
Fuel: 4048
Oil/Filter/Analysis: 200
Hours Flown: 101

Total Cost/Hr (Fixed/Variable): 100
Cost/Hr (Fuel/Oil Only): 42
 
Interesting data. This is one thing I never want to know about my plane. When it costs too much for the joy received I'll quit. Somehow knowing the number might hasten that conclusion. Hence I continue all attempts at fiscal self-deception.

So far its working....
 
Annual

$3150 for the annual/conditional inspection? Wow! My last annual on my C172 before I sold it was only $1500, and that included a trip to the radio shop to have the IFR cert. done for the new owner. My -4 is not flying yet, but my A&P quoted $450 to do the conditional inspection. That's just his inspection fee. Any parts and labor not included, but everything down to the plug wires and fuel/oil lines are new so I shouldn't expect any surprises.
 
Wow $3150 for Inspection on a RV-4? Did the mechanic have to rebuild a structure or something major? I never had that kind of cost on a Mooney I owned.

Did owner assist any with inspection? Does the $3150 include some major parts costs? Where was this inspection done?

I'm currently completing a 4, and would be curious what others from around the country are spending on average for annual inspection.
 
I got a quote of $300 for condition inspection at my hangar with me having everything opened up ready to go. $600 at A&P/IA's shop with him doing it all. This assumes no additional work is required.
 
Dean Pichon said:
At a fuel cost of $6/gallon, you burn less than 7 gallons per hour on average. Is that correct? It seems low. Perhaps you have an O-320....
Click to expand...

My math was based on 8 gph at $5/gallon which I'm usually able to find using skyvector (layers top right fuel price tool) and foreflight. Last week I made fuel stops on a cross country of $4.60 and $4.79. Usually fuel burn is only about 7 gph on my O-320 with 9:1 pistons and whirlwind ground adjustable prop.
 
Whitman said:
After my first year of RV-4 ownership. Here are the costs. I consider fixed costs a sunk cost so only focus on the variable costs like fuel/oil when deciding to fly or not.

Annual Inspection: 3150
Hangar: 1080
Insurance: 1299
Other Mx: 350
Fuel: 4048
Oil/Filter/Analysis: 200
Hours Flown: 101

Total Cost/Hr (Fixed/Variable): 100
Cost/Hr (Fuel/Oil Only): 42
Click to expand...


ANNUAL INSPECTION???
Don't you do that yourself?
 
I'm a first time airplane owner and sort of expected the first condition inspection since owning the plane to be higher. I just wanted to get an experienced set of eyes on it. I was glad I got to pull the inspection panels and learn some things. The prop hub needed replacing which was a big driver in the cost ($1000 parts/labor) and with the inspection starting at $700 (usually $795), it escalated quickly.

Engine was fine after only 100hrs SMOH but there were lots of things that needed attention on the airframe. Brake lines, fuel system lines, rudder trim tab, airbox fiberglass, and the required prop balance since the hub was changed.

As far as op costs: I really prefer to deal with that $42/hr number :)
 
Realize that a "free" condition inspection can only be done if you are the builder of the aircraft. If you have purchased the aircraft from another you cannot do the inspection yourself.
So the only recourse is to either get the original builder to look at the aircraft, or use an IA. Either of these two methods may not be "free".
Dave
 
[email protected] said:
So the only recourse is to either get the original builder to look at the aircraft, or use an IA. Either of these two methods may not be "free".
Dave
Click to expand...

When will people stop spreading this misinformation? An AI is NOT needed to do condition inspections on EAB aircraft. The builder that holds the repairman certificate for the airplane and any A&P can sign off the inspection.
 
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RogerG said:
Wow $3150 for Inspection on a RV-4?
I'm currently completing a 4, and would be curious what others from around the country are spending on average for annual inspection.
Click to expand...

No way it should cost anything like that unless some major problems, or work needs to be done. Before mechanic starts his inspection, take off the cowling (top & bottom), wheel pants, all fairings and inspection covers, make sure ahead of time there are no obvious maintenance items that need to be addressed (e.g., oil is changed if needed, control linkages lubed, air filter clean, braking system and everything else in good order), and in my experience you should be out of there for $300 - $400, maybe $500 if your mechanic is a little more expensive. I'd look for someone else if your mechanic is looking for more than that -- unless he finds something wrong requiring work you can't do.
 
RV-4 OPS COST

Kenora

''ANNUAL INSPECTION???
Don't you do that yourself?''
-----------------------------------
In the States they can't if they are not the original builder of the aircraft,builder that holds the repairman certificate for the airplane and any A&P can sign off the inspection. ''

In Canada we are allowed to do anything and everything to the a/c as it is an experimental which is great as long as you know what you're doing.

Cheers

Bruno
 
[email protected] said:
Realize that a "free" condition inspection can only be done if you are the builder of the aircraft. If you have purchased the aircraft from another you cannot do the inspection yourself.
So the only recourse is to either get the original builder to look at the aircraft, or use an IA. Either of these two methods may not be "free".
Dave
Click to expand...

That is true in the US, but not here in Canada. The owner (not necessarily the builder) can do his own annual here. Big $$$ saver.

Cheers
 
Total cost per hour is down to under $58/hr, thanks to lower fuel prices and lower maintenance costs this year. Try to find this kind of performance, fun, and practicality on the rental market for that price. You can't even rent a C-150 for this.

Hangar: 1110
Insurance: 959
Annual Inspection: 1317
Fuel: 5130
Oil/Filter/Analysis : 240
Total Cost: 8756
Hours Flown: 152
Total Cost/Hr (Fixed + Variable): 57.61
Cost/Hr (Variable: Fuel/Oil/Engine): 40.33

Assumptions: $4.50 gas, $5/hr engine reserve
 
Whitman said:
After my first year of RV-4 ownership. Here are the costs. I consider fixed costs a sunk cost so only focus on the variable costs like fuel/oil when deciding to fly or not.

Annual Inspection: 3150
Hangar: 1080
Insurance: 1299
Other Mx: 350
Fuel: 4048
Oil/Filter/Analysis: 200
Hours Flown: 101

Total Cost/Hr (Fixed/Variable): 100
Cost/Hr (Fuel/Oil Only): 42
Click to expand...

What about Engine Reserve and Data Card updates, ForeFlight subccriptions etc?
 
twsurveyor said:
What about Engine Reserve and Data Card updates, ForeFlight subccriptions etc?
Click to expand...


5/hr engine reserve included based on 10K overhaul. I use lifetime updates from Dynon and have Dynon ADSB Wx as well. That pays for itself in two years over XM.
 
RV-4 said:
Kenora

''ANNUAL INSPECTION???
Don't you do that yourself?''
-----------------------------------
In the States they can't if they are not the original builder of the aircraft,builder that holds the repairman certificate for the airplane and any A&P can sign off the inspection. ''

In Canada we are allowed to do anything and everything to the a/c as it is an experimental which is great as long as you know what you're doing.

Cheers

Bruno
Click to expand...

Hi Bruno,
While many embrace the Canadian system where the owner can do his own maintenance, I have seen the other side of the equation... As an AME that has done many pre-purchase inspections in the Montreal area, the owner maintenance on experimental aircraft is somewhat of a nightmare. It's far from a model to follow. If you built the aircraft, then at least you have a rough idea of standard practices. Ideally there should be a minimum of competence demonstration prior to being able to inspect and certify your aircraft as fit for flight.

As for the 3000$ inspection, that seems high for a fixed gear aircraft with a fixed pitch prop and push pull tubes to inspect.

I am curious as to the hours breakdown... How many hours were necessary to carry out the inspection part (excluding repairs)?

?ric
 
3 AMUs is a huge chunk of cheddar for an annual condition inpection unless there was a lot of stuff to be repaired or replaced. I am fortunate to be able to get the builder of my RV6 to do the inspections. I usually trade him a couple hundred dollars worth of ammo each year and have to twist his arm to take it. Of course I do all the "grunt work" myself, but we basically take the whole plane apart and go over it with a fine tooth comb... after all it's now MY bacon on the line for the plane's airworthiness.
 
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rbibb said:
Interesting data. This is one thing I never want to know about my plane. When it costs too much for the joy received I'll quit. Somehow knowing the number might hasten that conclusion. Hence I continue all attempts at fiscal self-deception.

So far its working....
Click to expand...

I'm like you Rbibb,, don't want to know,, it's like buying a sports car somebody ask you what the miles per gallon are, don't know don't care!! Got it to go fast....

3000 for a condition inspection,, that's crazy.... Sorry my 2cents...
 
I see it different than many

I am the builder of my -4, including the engine and paint ($$stuff). I tend to look the other way when it comes to future costs of re-build, ect. because I will manage it the same as I did first time around. I only have 25K in my whole project anyway because I scrounged and dug for 15 years building it. My hangar rent is $250 (Its big enough for 2 planes and work area), and I live on the airport, so its my play haven , and where I can be found tinkering nearly every day. I seldom keep track of costs, and feel blessed every day I can be doing what I love so much with this wonderful machine and fellow friends that enjoy the same. Those who have been to my hangar dive for advice, inspections, or just to chat know I support the "keep it simple and cheap" philosophy. In the end, I bet I spend less per year than people who play golf a couple times a week...best of all, my wife loves it too:D
 
Gents, thanks for your replies. Cost of ownership is one of the most common questions I get. This thread is something I wish I had coming up. I'm just trying to pay it forward. After only 2yrs of ownership and 260hrs in the -4, I'm far from having it figured out and appreciate all the advice!

As far as condition inspections, I think the flat rate style of $600-900, or whatever the charge is, followed by additional labor if anything is found plus parts cost can easily raise the price. I'm honestly not sure what is normal as I've only used two mechanics. I do feel comfortable enough now where I should be able to do the tires/brakes etc before the annual and save a little money.
 
Now you got me curious

Quick napkin math for me:

Yearly costs:

Hangar: $1,800
Insurance: $290 (liability only)
Maintenance: $400 (I do the Cond Insp since I'm the builder)
Garmin Pilot subscription: $75
Fuel/Oil: $34 per hour x 50 hours: $1,700


Total per hour for 50 hours per yr: $85 per hour

Would be $60 per hour if I flew 100 hours per year which I hope to do when I retire next month.
 
What I'm not seeing is the cost of capital to buy the plane. A $75,000 investment in a plane at 5% interest costs $3750 per year. For one who flies 50 hours, that is $75 per hour additional. I fly in a club for $95 per hour and have no additional expense or worry. It's not for everyone, but my thinking is that for something that is used so little, better to rent than own, especially with an asset that will not grow in value with time.
 
novipilot said:
What I'm not seeing is the cost of capital to buy the plane. A $75,000 investment in a plane at 5% interest costs $3750 per year. For one who flies 50 hours, that is $75 per hour additional. I fly in a club for $95 per hour and have no additional expense or worry. It's not for everyone, but my thinking is that for something that is used so little, better to rent than own, especially with an asset that will not grow in value with time.
Click to expand...

A lot of things we do as human's does not make finiacial sense. Buying and owning an airplane is surely not going to have a chapter in the "how to invest your money workbook" anytime in the near future.

Just like Golf, sporting events, and the many other things we do to enjoy life.

If you look at an airplane as a 401k plan, its not going to work out. If you look at putting a smile on your face and enjoying life, it just might be the right choice.
 
Ahh, but the trick is more smiles per dollar. All I'm sayIng is that for the typical non-business airplane, it's probably better to rent, partner, or club unless you are going to need exclusive use because of schedule, or fly a couple of hundred hours per year.
 
ty1295 said:
A lot of things we do as human's does not make finiacial sense. Buying and owning an airplane is surely not going to have a chapter in the "how to invest your money workbook" anytime in the near future.

Just like Golf, sporting events, and the many other things we do to enjoy life.

If you look at an airplane as a 401k plan, its not going to work out. If you look at putting a smile on your face and enjoying life, it just might be the right choice.
Click to expand...

Owning my 9a probably doesn't make a lot of sense financially over renting, however.

I fly a lot (on pace for about 200 hours this year), and the convenience of your own plane can't be overstated.

I can literally walk out my back door, and be in the air in 10-15 minutes. Last week my wife got home, and said, hey lets fly somewhere for dinner, so we did. We flew over to college station and had a nice dinner.

Renting a plane is a pain in the butt. Older plane, hassle of getting the plane, etc.

-Dan
 
Not for everyone....

novipilot said:
Ahh, but the trick is more smiles per dollar. All I'm sayIng is that for the typical non-business airplane, it's probably better to rent, partner, or club unless you are going to need exclusive use because of schedule, or fly a couple of hundred hours per year.
Click to expand...

The "trick" for me...is knowing my aircraft is well maintained and hasn't been abused by another person. This is an issue in any and every club, and potentially in any and every partnership. No one likes digging for a chart and coming up with a half eaten snickers...It is always the same as I left it...That is worth the premium.

I also get to change anything I want on my aircraft (and have been...very frequently).

You either want to own your own aircraft...or you don't. Flying almost never makes fiscal sense.
 
novipilot said:
What I'm not seeing is the cost of capital to buy the plane. A $75,000 investment in a plane at 5% interest costs $3750 per year. For one who flies 50 hours, that is $75 per hour additional. I fly in a club for $95 per hour and have no additional expense or worry. It's not for everyone, but my thinking is that for something that is used so little, better to rent than own, especially with an asset that will not grow in value with time.
Click to expand...

True, but the same could be said for owning a $25K car on a 48 month loan:

Average car payment: $550
Insurance: $150/mo.
Gas and Oil: $0.10 per mile x 30 miles per day x 30 days/mo = $90/mo.
Depreciation: $250 per month
Maintenance: $20 per month (if under warranty, otherwise higher . . .)

Start adding up the costs, and a car is quite expensive as well. Is it more necessary to have a car than a plane? Sure! But my point is that it's better not to know if it is worth the "expense". Pay the price and don't look back if you can afford it. And lately, the RVs have held their value fairly well. Not so much for the spam can world.

Cheers,

- Rick
 
novipilot said:
Ahh, but the trick is more smiles per dollar. All I'm sayIng is that for the typical non-business airplane, it's probably better to rent, partner, or club unless you are going to need exclusive use because of schedule, or fly a couple of hundred hours per year.
Click to expand...

I don't know nor care what my fixed costs are. However, since I live on an airpark, my hangar is an appreciating asset and not a liability. At least that's what I tell my wife.

As for the rental thing, good luck trying to take a weekend trip or finding one that is in good condition. I have had too many aborted flights and in flight issues with rental aircraft that I start to hyperventilate at the thought of renting again.
 
Operating costs

Another data point. I have been operating my RV-6A for years. Flying 100 to 125 hours a year, often IFR on trips. Always hangared and insured. All maintenance issues promptly taken care of. Data subscriptions for nav and weather. Combined fixed and variable costs run me about $100 an hour, variable to some extent with fuel prices, and that includes putting $23 an hour into an overhaul reserve.

It costs 58 cents a mile to operate an average car today, per IRS. That is all in, fixed and variable costs, depreciation, and 15,000 miles per year.

At an average speed of 180 miles per hour, and $100 an hour, my airplane costs 56 cents a mile to operate. Not too shabby by comparison, especially for three times the speed.

LeRoy Johnston RV-6A Esperanza 970 hours.
 
Operating cost

If your like a lot of RV's you need to scratch the hanger cost and because your really getting charged for rent on a home. After all we do actually live in the RV man cave hangar and if not your in next hangar over tell lies!!:D
 
Operating cost

I should add that I have not factored in the materials (kit, engine, etc.) cost nor the value of my time to build it.

On the other hand, my build time was pure recreation, and the airplane will keep going for my lifetime if I continue to take care of it.

LeRoy Johnston RV-6A Esperanza 970 hours
 
RV-6 Costs over 3 years of data

6tlpaf.jpg


113.17 factors in prop overhaul and engine overhaul
 
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