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F-18's force RV-6 to land
- Thread starter N941WR
- Start date
Ralph Kramden
Active Member
Wait a minute...
You mean F-18s can fly that slow / RV-6s can fly that fast???
You mean F-18s can fly that slow / RV-6s can fly that fast???
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
There are probably F-18 pilots on this forum, but the first hit on Google brings up http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-18.htm With a 134 knot approach speed and an RV top speed around 175 or higher, wouldn't seem to be a problem.Ralph Kramden said:
Flight following?
Some of you Texas guys have experience with Presidental TFRs, so maybe one of you knows if using flight following will keep you clear of POTUS. We have several diferent types of military airspaces near my base of operation. If I take advantage of flight following, I normally am vectored around or over any active area or allowed to fly through an inactive areas.
Some of you Texas guys have experience with Presidental TFRs, so maybe one of you knows if using flight following will keep you clear of POTUS. We have several diferent types of military airspaces near my base of operation. If I take advantage of flight following, I normally am vectored around or over any active area or allowed to fly through an inactive areas.
Reed and heed
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0506.html
mcb
Perhaps at this time it would be appropriate to point to section 5-6-2 of the AIM - Interception Procedures:
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0506.html
mcb
Tandem46
Well Known Member
From the Blue Angel website faq section:
What are the fastest and slowest speeds flown during an air show?The fastest speed is about 700 mph (just under Mach 1; Sneak Pass) and the slowest speed is about 120 mph (indicated speed; Section High Alpha), both flown by the solo pilots during the show
That's 105 kts. The hornet can actually maintain level flight at around 95 kts indicated during a high alpha pass.
Hard Knox said:
As hard as Air Traffic Controllers work, I hate to say anything derogatory, but I have learned not to completely trust them to keep me out of places either IFR or VFR....there are TFR's that pop up that even they don't seem to get informed about. Remember that if we're VFR, we are still 100% responsible for our own navigation.....it's nit their job to watch out for us!
Paul
You think that's a good reason? We see things very differently, my friend. I say instead of looking to the FAA to fix "us," how bout we look to the FAA and Congress to stop the idiocy that has brought us to the point that Hornets are intercepting two-seat piston singles. Sure, we should be looking out for TFRs and we can do better, but c'mon... it's ridiculous that we as a country live in utter fear. Our response to these articles should not be "stupid pilots" - it should be "stupid useless TFRs and stupid terrified sheep."N941WR said:
But that's just me.
Read between the lines.
The TFR and intercept was in PA. The guy flew onward to his destination in NC. The F-18 did not force him down. The State Trooper and Secret Service treatment served little purpose beyond being a dog and pony show so they could release all this **** on Fox News and glorify the vigilance of our government protectors.
Aw heck, here comes the black helicopters.....
The TFR and intercept was in PA. The guy flew onward to his destination in NC. The F-18 did not force him down. The State Trooper and Secret Service treatment served little purpose beyond being a dog and pony show so they could release all this **** on Fox News and glorify the vigilance of our government protectors.
Aw heck, here comes the black helicopters.....
rzbill
Well Known Member
Speaking of Black Helicopters...
An aquaintance of mine owned a very large spotlight and was messing about by hooking it up so it could be easily modulated. He got the "wild hair" idea to point it a a satelite and morse code "Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo Bill Clinton" (without ICAO alphabet).
The next day, his wife called him at work to say the helicopters were hovering over their farm.....
An aquaintance of mine owned a very large spotlight and was messing about by hooking it up so it could be easily modulated. He got the "wild hair" idea to point it a a satelite and morse code "Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo Bill Clinton" (without ICAO alphabet).
The next day, his wife called him at work to say the helicopters were hovering over their farm..... I've flown a lot of POTUS support missions ("Noble Eagle") in the F-15, and have intercepted a lot of GA. I don't think that getting upset with the FAA or the government is the answer...check the TFRs! There are plenty of ways to get it done. Go online or call an FSS on the phone or radio....watch CNN and know where the President is. If you think this is a big dog and pony show, be assured that there is a point where you will receive more than a two hour interview from the Secret Service. You can lose your ticket...your plane...your life?? These aircraft have a full compliment of armament.
Lets say you're taking your wife out to dinner for Mothers Day tonight. If you could get on your computer and see all the dangerous parts of town (places you might get shot) would you not check it religiously every time you go out? Treat the TFRs the same way! They are dangerous places...and they are clearly spelled out and updated daily.
Sorry for the rant, but I am frustrated every time I run an intercept...It just opens the door to increased GA regulation and oversight by the FAA.
Lets say you're taking your wife out to dinner for Mothers Day tonight. If you could get on your computer and see all the dangerous parts of town (places you might get shot) would you not check it religiously every time you go out? Treat the TFRs the same way! They are dangerous places...and they are clearly spelled out and updated daily.
Sorry for the rant, but I am frustrated every time I run an intercept...It just opens the door to increased GA regulation and oversight by the FAA.
CraigH@KRPH
Well Known Member
Let's play devil's advocate for a minute. Suppose this pilot isn't internet savy (yes, there are still a few people that do not use the internet). Let's also suppose he had the same luck calling FSS that I've had over the past few weeks; 15 minutes Lockheed Martin serenading me with music and telling me how important I am without ever taking my call. If he couldn't use the internet, and couldn't get a brief because of the phenomenal screw-up that Lockheed Martin is at the moment - he just might not have been able to get a briefing.
I'm not trying to take up for the guy, just trying to consider all the possibilities. If you've looked at the AOPA homepage in the past few days, you'll know what a huge Foxtrot Uniform FSS has become. Something to think about.
I'm not trying to take up for the guy, just trying to consider all the possibilities. If you've looked at the AOPA homepage in the past few days, you'll know what a huge Foxtrot Uniform FSS has become. Something to think about.
Ralph Kramden
Active Member
Time for a little common sense...
OK, let's see how some of this would play out.
Pilot Boob is out flying his RV-10 with the wife and kids in the back. Oops, he's flown within 30 miles of the President and is intercepted by F-15s with full armament. Boob doesn't get it and keeps flying a course that cuts across (but not directly overhead) the TFR area. Boob thinks the F-15s are just curious about RVs and wanted to get a closer look at his beautiful bird. F-15s fire off some flares or whatever. Boob keeps flying and waving and smiling like, well, a boob. Now, do the F-15s go ahead and shoot him down? I mean, he's not obeying their orders to land.
Can you imagine the press if they went ahead and shot Boob down? F-15s shoot down an unarmed plane and kill four family members because they got within say, four miles of the President? Can you imagine the public outrage at the President (with his 28% approval rating), the Air Force and the FAA? Can you imagine the guilt the AF pilot has to live with for the rest of his life knowing he killed a family of four including a six year old girl and a two year old boy? And, supposing the AF pilot shoots down the airplane, where exactly are all the stray 20mm bullets going to go? Into someone's house on the ground five miles away? The point is, sending an F-15 up to intercept a GA aircraft is sort of like sending soldiers to a riot with bayonets and rifles - not a very practical thing to do because you really don't want to kill anyone. If Boob keeps on flying there is not really much you can sensibly do with that F-15 and its full armament.
OK, let's say Boob gets the message and lands instead. He is then intercepted on the ground (right there on the runway) by angry state troopers who immediately wrestle him to the ground and handcuff him and his wife. Remember the video of the arrest of the C-150 pilots that scared Congress a year or so ago? They then drag Boob and his wife off to some airport room and wait for Secret Service to show up. Does it really take two hours of questioning and threats to determine that this person is not a terrorist? Don't think so, in fact they probably should have been able to figure this out before they got them out of the airplane.
OK, so what exactly are the SS going to do with these people? What crime are they going to be charged with that a reasonable judge and jury are going to support? Being a Boob? Flying as passengers with a boob pilot? Those aren't crimes. Oh, yes, the SS can get the FAA involved and get the license suspended or revoked and maybe a civil fine, but that's not criminal action.
The point of all of this was to show that all of this over-reaction is exactly that. Over-reaction. And over-reaction does NOT make us or the President even the slightest bit safer.
Dave - I am not criticising you or the work you have been doing for us. And thanks for your service to our country. But what we have here is primarily an air traffic control and a law enforcement job - not a military job. If the President needs to be protected from enemy fighters or hijacked airliners, you are probably a great choice to do the protecting. But simply making sure that civilian light aircraft are kept clear of the President is an administrative or law enforcement activity. If anyone really wanted to attack the President with a light aircraft then Secret Service on the ground could do the job much better with some Stinger missiles - after all, the FAA should have been able to give them about ten to twenty minutes of warning! Even without shoulder fired missiles they ought to be able to hear the airplane coming and hustle the President off into that big armored limosine and drive away. Geez, that limo could probably take a hit by an RV and still not be damaged!
All this being said, let's just all just be careful to find out where the TFRs are and avoid letting other people over-react.
Just my two cents.
RK
OK, let's see how some of this would play out.
Pilot Boob is out flying his RV-10 with the wife and kids in the back. Oops, he's flown within 30 miles of the President and is intercepted by F-15s with full armament. Boob doesn't get it and keeps flying a course that cuts across (but not directly overhead) the TFR area. Boob thinks the F-15s are just curious about RVs and wanted to get a closer look at his beautiful bird. F-15s fire off some flares or whatever. Boob keeps flying and waving and smiling like, well, a boob. Now, do the F-15s go ahead and shoot him down? I mean, he's not obeying their orders to land.
Can you imagine the press if they went ahead and shot Boob down? F-15s shoot down an unarmed plane and kill four family members because they got within say, four miles of the President? Can you imagine the public outrage at the President (with his 28% approval rating), the Air Force and the FAA? Can you imagine the guilt the AF pilot has to live with for the rest of his life knowing he killed a family of four including a six year old girl and a two year old boy? And, supposing the AF pilot shoots down the airplane, where exactly are all the stray 20mm bullets going to go? Into someone's house on the ground five miles away? The point is, sending an F-15 up to intercept a GA aircraft is sort of like sending soldiers to a riot with bayonets and rifles - not a very practical thing to do because you really don't want to kill anyone. If Boob keeps on flying there is not really much you can sensibly do with that F-15 and its full armament.
OK, let's say Boob gets the message and lands instead. He is then intercepted on the ground (right there on the runway) by angry state troopers who immediately wrestle him to the ground and handcuff him and his wife. Remember the video of the arrest of the C-150 pilots that scared Congress a year or so ago? They then drag Boob and his wife off to some airport room and wait for Secret Service to show up. Does it really take two hours of questioning and threats to determine that this person is not a terrorist? Don't think so, in fact they probably should have been able to figure this out before they got them out of the airplane.
OK, so what exactly are the SS going to do with these people? What crime are they going to be charged with that a reasonable judge and jury are going to support? Being a Boob? Flying as passengers with a boob pilot? Those aren't crimes. Oh, yes, the SS can get the FAA involved and get the license suspended or revoked and maybe a civil fine, but that's not criminal action.
The point of all of this was to show that all of this over-reaction is exactly that. Over-reaction. And over-reaction does NOT make us or the President even the slightest bit safer.
Dave - I am not criticising you or the work you have been doing for us. And thanks for your service to our country. But what we have here is primarily an air traffic control and a law enforcement job - not a military job. If the President needs to be protected from enemy fighters or hijacked airliners, you are probably a great choice to do the protecting. But simply making sure that civilian light aircraft are kept clear of the President is an administrative or law enforcement activity. If anyone really wanted to attack the President with a light aircraft then Secret Service on the ground could do the job much better with some Stinger missiles - after all, the FAA should have been able to give them about ten to twenty minutes of warning! Even without shoulder fired missiles they ought to be able to hear the airplane coming and hustle the President off into that big armored limosine and drive away. Geez, that limo could probably take a hit by an RV and still not be damaged!
All this being said, let's just all just be careful to find out where the TFRs are and avoid letting other people over-react.
Just my two cents.
RK
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<<I've flown a lot of POTUS support missions ("Noble Eagle") in the F-15, and have intercepted a lot of GA.>>
Dave, thanks for the comment. I appreciate your perspective.
Just for a moment, let's consider a USA with no pop-up Presidential TFR's. You're still flying cover and the Secret Service is still walking the perimeter. You know the President's location of course, and you're gonna eyeball anything that flies into the vicinity. An unknown gets within a certain radius of the protected location, on a course that may or may not intersect the center of the circle.
1) you run a standard formal intercept proceedure obvious to the GA pilot. He gets the message, which in this new sensible world is "fly straight and level and leave this vicinity". He does exactly that.
(2) you intercept as above, but he turns and decends toward the protected location. You follow the preordained proceedures and decision process. He refuses to alter course and at some point you shoot him down.
Case #1 is no different than the current situation with a TFR: the pilot didn't know the President was there. He is clearly harmless in level flight and has an F-15 escort. There is no reasonable risk to the President.
Case #2 is also the same with or without a TFR. And here's a truth; even with the TFR, you're not going to shoot until all concerned feel that a real risk to the President has developed. You would do that with or without a TFR. The value of the TFR comes after the shootdown; it is the blanket that provides CYA if the target is later found to be innocent of all intent to harm.
I submit that Brian is right; pop-up TRF's are stupid and useless in terms of providing actual VIP protection. I also submit that you are right; violating them causes trouble for the GA community. The sad part is that they cause us this trouble when their only value is political.
Dave, thanks for the comment. I appreciate your perspective.
Just for a moment, let's consider a USA with no pop-up Presidential TFR's. You're still flying cover and the Secret Service is still walking the perimeter. You know the President's location of course, and you're gonna eyeball anything that flies into the vicinity. An unknown gets within a certain radius of the protected location, on a course that may or may not intersect the center of the circle.
1) you run a standard formal intercept proceedure obvious to the GA pilot. He gets the message, which in this new sensible world is "fly straight and level and leave this vicinity". He does exactly that.
(2) you intercept as above, but he turns and decends toward the protected location. You follow the preordained proceedures and decision process. He refuses to alter course and at some point you shoot him down.
Case #1 is no different than the current situation with a TFR: the pilot didn't know the President was there. He is clearly harmless in level flight and has an F-15 escort. There is no reasonable risk to the President.
Case #2 is also the same with or without a TFR. And here's a truth; even with the TFR, you're not going to shoot until all concerned feel that a real risk to the President has developed. You would do that with or without a TFR. The value of the TFR comes after the shootdown; it is the blanket that provides CYA if the target is later found to be innocent of all intent to harm.
I submit that Brian is right; pop-up TRF's are stupid and useless in terms of providing actual VIP protection. I also submit that you are right; violating them causes trouble for the GA community. The sad part is that they cause us this trouble when their only value is political.
terrykohler
Well Known Member
I wonder if this pilot actually got a preflight briefing before departure. If he did, he should have been aware of the TFR. If he didn't, he has some FAR issues beyond TFR airspace that he'll need to address with the Feds. Hard to believe any rational person would make such a cross country flilght without benefit of proper flight planning. His only recourse will be if during briefing he requested TFRs along his route and was advised no conflict.
Terry
RV9A
N323TP
Terry
RV9A
N323TP
N98HK said:
I have to agree. For those of your who think "Big Brother" is already too much to handle, just wait and see what happens when a continuous flow of "pilot Boobs" keep violating airspace. It's our choice, police ourselves or have the government do it. Just my 2 cents.
Bill Rambo
RV-7A
az_gila
Well Known Member
90 days - no flying
A local resident was at his ranch one weekend and didn't realize the President was going to be in Tucson on the Monday morning (we won't call him Mr. Boob.. but...) He flew back, and ignored the F-16s... left the area, and then returned at a lower altitude...
When he landed, the local Sheriffs greeted him with guns drawn....
He ended up with 90 days of not flying, and will now have to check that little box every time he applies for aircraft insurance....
It's not too hard to work out where the President is going to be, especially if he's coming to your neighborhood...
gil in Tucson
The F-16s were flying so low over our airpark, my wife called me at work and asked what was going on... They were loud with all of the house windows closed and the AC on...
Ralph Kramden said:
A local resident was at his ranch one weekend and didn't realize the President was going to be in Tucson on the Monday morning (we won't call him Mr. Boob.. but...) He flew back, and ignored the F-16s... left the area, and then returned at a lower altitude...
When he landed, the local Sheriffs greeted him with guns drawn....
He ended up with 90 days of not flying, and will now have to check that little box every time he applies for aircraft insurance....
It's not too hard to work out where the President is going to be, especially if he's coming to your neighborhood...
gil in Tucson
The F-16s were flying so low over our airpark, my wife called me at work and asked what was going on... They were loud with all of the house windows closed and the AC on...
fstringham7a
Well Known Member
TFR for autos
Brian I agree......Maybe there should be TFR for land vehicals near the Pres. one never knows it just might be a suicide bomber. You may think I say this in jest but.....it won't be to long down the road when this will happen to just we regular citizens or the Pres. I HOPE I AM WRONG!
I also agree, as I was trained, to ALWAYS plan a flight wheather local or x country....This would include TFR. It is guy's like this that give a black eye but surely not a knock out punch to our flying GA community!!!!!
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
Brian130 said:
Brian I agree......Maybe there should be TFR for land vehicals near the Pres. one never knows it just might be a suicide bomber. You may think I say this in jest but.....it won't be to long down the road when this will happen to just we regular citizens or the Pres. I HOPE I AM WRONG!
I also agree, as I was trained, to ALWAYS plan a flight wheather local or x country....This would include TFR. It is guy's like this that give a black eye but surely not a knock out punch to our flying GA community!!!!!
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
flight plan
and don't close your flight plan in time, you'd have the FAA trying to get the SS to release you so they don't have to dispatch S&R!
How does filing a flight plan keep you from busting a TFR? I guess if you get "pulled over" by a F-35fstringham7a said:
and don't close your flight plan in time, you'd have the FAA trying to get the SS to release you so they don't have to dispatch S&R!fstringham7a
Well Known Member
RE: Misunderstood ..poo r little me!!!
Mickey
Good point ...as an old dried up tired high school chemistry teacher I know that I can easily be misunderstood. I didn't say anytyhing about filing a flight plan ...what I said was plan the flight!
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
rv8ch said:How does filing a flight plan keep you from busting a TFR? I guess if you get "pulled over" by a F-35
Mickey
Good point ...as an old dried up tired high school chemistry teacher I know that I can easily be misunderstood. I didn't say anytyhing about filing a flight plan ...what I said was plan the flight!
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
Duh!
My bad! Reading your note again is pretty scary. How did I get file a flight plan from that? Oh well, time to get some shut eye!fstringham7a said:Good point ...as an old dried up tired high school chemistry teacher I know that I can easily be misunderstood. I didn't say anytyhing about filing a flight plan ...what I said was plan the flight!
fstringham7a
Well Known Member
Land Based TFR are real!!!!!!!!
Bill
True ...so true......I really love living in the most red of one of the most red states,"politically speaking". George will never ever need to come to my little desert oasis and thus bring his cavalcade of necessary protectors. On the other hand his lovely wife was in our area just a couple of weeks ago to rededicate a gov.info building in Zions National park.
Now back to the plane....I am trying to get a handle on a my load analysis chart to determine B&C alternator size.
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
N941WR said:
Bill
True ...so true......I really love living in the most red of one of the most red states,"politically speaking". George will never ever need to come to my little desert oasis and thus bring his cavalcade of necessary protectors. On the other hand his lovely wife was in our area just a couple of weeks ago to rededicate a gov.info building in Zions National park.
Now back to the plane....I am trying to get a handle on a my load analysis chart to determine B&C alternator size.
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
Tom Maxwell
Well Known Member
TFR - (Terrestial Flight Restrictions)
They already exist. Just try driving anywhere near the President or his motorcade. You will surely get a more serious welcoming than a few flares fired over your hood. Talk about moving TFRs! They will shut down a major city during rush hour to get the President to a dinner. It happens quite regularly. The difference is that land based traffic is more easily controlled and moves at a much slower rate than aircraft.
As far as TFR's are concerned, they are here to stay so we better learn to live with them. To me it is not unrealistic to think a nutcase could pack a few hundred pounds of explosives in a GA aircraft with the intent of putting it into the side of the Presidential limo or through a ranch house window. These guys are paid to think the worst about everything, and frankly, if it were me, I would do the same. When they say, "We take every potential threat seriously, they ain't lyin!"
You can rest assured they have plenty of stinger missles and several other cool toys we don't even know about at their immediate disposal. They will error on the side of ridiculous as they can more easily explain why they shot down a family of four than why that RV10 plowed into the side of the Presidential limo. They know that errors in communication occur and that breakdowns in the system happen, so they will not view a little ole RV flying through a TFR as a misguided Sunday afternoon ride in the country but rather as a legitimate threat to the President no matter how remote.
Bottom line is if knuckleheads keep testing them, sooner or later something really horrible is going to happen and then yes they will sit back and say, "We warned you and we told you so." It isn't a matter of someone deserving to die for doing something unintentional. It is simply a matter of no one, even the president himself, being more important than the sanctity of the office.
fstringham7a said:
They already exist. Just try driving anywhere near the President or his motorcade. You will surely get a more serious welcoming than a few flares fired over your hood. Talk about moving TFRs! They will shut down a major city during rush hour to get the President to a dinner. It happens quite regularly. The difference is that land based traffic is more easily controlled and moves at a much slower rate than aircraft.
As far as TFR's are concerned, they are here to stay so we better learn to live with them. To me it is not unrealistic to think a nutcase could pack a few hundred pounds of explosives in a GA aircraft with the intent of putting it into the side of the Presidential limo or through a ranch house window. These guys are paid to think the worst about everything, and frankly, if it were me, I would do the same. When they say, "We take every potential threat seriously, they ain't lyin!"
You can rest assured they have plenty of stinger missles and several other cool toys we don't even know about at their immediate disposal. They will error on the side of ridiculous as they can more easily explain why they shot down a family of four than why that RV10 plowed into the side of the Presidential limo. They know that errors in communication occur and that breakdowns in the system happen, so they will not view a little ole RV flying through a TFR as a misguided Sunday afternoon ride in the country but rather as a legitimate threat to the President no matter how remote.
Bottom line is if knuckleheads keep testing them, sooner or later something really horrible is going to happen and then yes they will sit back and say, "We warned you and we told you so." It isn't a matter of someone deserving to die for doing something unintentional. It is simply a matter of no one, even the president himself, being more important than the sanctity of the office.
There are many layers of defense for the president, no matter where he is. The protection in place did change after 9-11, but not drastically. There were always fighter aircraft on alert, and the secret service has always been prepared to defend against an air threat. What changed after the towers fell is that to a large degree (I believe) the powers that be realized that the threat of large commercial aircraft taking off in close proximity to very sensitive areas can not be countered by fighters on 5 min alert. Yes, I think that it is overkill to have an F-15 intx an RV-7. The secret service is now using balckhawk helicopters around he DC area and around the CONUS that are equipped with large illuminated signs giving detailed instructions to the intercepted aircraft. The fighters will intx at long range and hand off if able to the helos. If the family of 4 in an RV-10 ignore the TFRs, and the fighters, and the helos there is a chance that something tragic could occur. If a man takes his family for a drive through the DC area, and takes the police on a high speed chase across the mall, through the gates of the White House and gets his entire family killed at G.W. Bush's front door it would be a tragedy. Every man that pulled a trigger would be sick, but the driver of that car killed his family. No one is trigger happy - no one wants to shoot down an aircraft. Realize that every fighter pilot up there has do deal with this decision. Its easy to shoot down a MiG (one pilot, probably trying to kill you) - how about a 757 with a couple of hundred people? No one knows in what form the next attack will come - and I think until we win this war they'll keep trying - so we have to be prepared. As inconvenient as this may be to some in the GA community, I am not willing to see a successful attack on US soil happen again. Not on my watch. This is a pivotal time for GA to demonstrate some responsibility. Check the TFRs. If you don't have a computer, use a phone. If you don't have a phone, climb above your field and use your radio. Find the information, don't look for excuses not to have it.
Paul Thomas
Well Known Member
I have been inconvenienced by TFR.
I thought the military would not allowed to do police work? How legal are those intercepts?
I thought the military would not allowed to do police work? How legal are those intercepts?
OK, lets not lose sight of the big picture. There are hundreds of reasons a TFR may be activated. POTUS protection is just one of them. Right now, there's a TFR in WA for volcanic activity at St Helens. There's another in N. Florida for all of the forest fires. The last thing you want to do is get in the way of fire bombers, or fly through volcanic ash. So, to answer the question, I would have to say that lives have been saved by TFRs. It has always been a good idea to check them before going flying.
hevansrv7a
Well Known Member
My two cents, probably worthless..
Security, be it physical, financial, IT or whatever, is always imperfect and always inconvenient. The more you look at it the more you can see that and it's not avoidable in a practical sense. There's an inherent conflict between convenience and safety and there's no getting over it. We all, government included, must make the best decisions we can on these subjects. Sadly, the nature of government and bureaucracy is that CYA rules will be put in place because nobody wants to be the one that gets blamed for being lax when the bad stuff happens. That's why we take off our shoes at the airport, I think.
OK, that said, TFR's are a PITA. My favorite example is the one over our two arenas near KDET (Ford Field and Comerica Park). This one is the usual 3000' and 3 miles. This is what a better analyst than I am calls "security theater". I say this because even my C-150, let alone a bizjet can take off from KDET and hit either of those targets before anything, even a military helicopter, can do anything about it. So in reality, all it does is get in our way and seem to an ignorant public as if something is being done.
I admit that at 30 miles with many eyes actually watching, the POTUS is somewhat safer and I'm glad he is. I strongly disagree about dropping it.
So I wish there were better answers, but I don't know what they are. The stadium TFR is just counter productive and deceptive. But, the TFR around the POTUS/VPOTUS is something I'd not want to see dropped - land or air. I just wish I believed it would stop a home-made cruise missle that could be made for under $10K. That's the imperfect part. Imperfection would not be a good reason, though, to make it even easier for the enemy.
Security, be it physical, financial, IT or whatever, is always imperfect and always inconvenient. The more you look at it the more you can see that and it's not avoidable in a practical sense. There's an inherent conflict between convenience and safety and there's no getting over it. We all, government included, must make the best decisions we can on these subjects. Sadly, the nature of government and bureaucracy is that CYA rules will be put in place because nobody wants to be the one that gets blamed for being lax when the bad stuff happens. That's why we take off our shoes at the airport, I think.
OK, that said, TFR's are a PITA. My favorite example is the one over our two arenas near KDET (Ford Field and Comerica Park). This one is the usual 3000' and 3 miles. This is what a better analyst than I am calls "security theater". I say this because even my C-150, let alone a bizjet can take off from KDET and hit either of those targets before anything, even a military helicopter, can do anything about it. So in reality, all it does is get in our way and seem to an ignorant public as if something is being done.
I admit that at 30 miles with many eyes actually watching, the POTUS is somewhat safer and I'm glad he is. I strongly disagree about dropping it.
So I wish there were better answers, but I don't know what they are. The stadium TFR is just counter productive and deceptive. But, the TFR around the POTUS/VPOTUS is something I'd not want to see dropped - land or air. I just wish I believed it would stop a home-made cruise missle that could be made for under $10K. That's the imperfect part. Imperfection would not be a good reason, though, to make it even easier for the enemy.
JimLogajan
Active Member
tin man said:
That's incorrect - flight by U.S. citizens within U.S. airspace is a right, not a privilege. U.S. law makes this explicit:
"United State Code TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION
Sec. 40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
(2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit
through the navigable airspace."
Quoted from:
http://lii.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00040103----000-.html
hevansrv7a
Well Known Member
Yes, But..
Impressive, Jim! I hope the FAA is aware of this. But, of course, the government gets to decide what is navigable and when. Class Bravo?
Impressive, Jim! I hope the FAA is aware of this. But, of course, the government gets to decide what is navigable and when. Class Bravo?
JimLogajan said:
David-aviator
Well Known Member
Thread slightly off track.....
The pilot appears to have violated FAR 91.141 Flight restrictions in the proximity of the President and other parties.
Unless the NOTAM was issued after he took off, there isn't much to talk about. It was a screw up. Could happen to anyone not in the habit of checking for TFR's.
The pilot appears to have violated FAR 91.141 Flight restrictions in the proximity of the President and other parties.
Unless the NOTAM was issued after he took off, there isn't much to talk about. It was a screw up. Could happen to anyone not in the habit of checking for TFR's.
tonyjohnson
Well Known Member
intercept procedures
One of the most embarassing things about this event was that the pilot reportedly said that he thought the F18 pilot was just trying to show him what the F18 "was all about".....he did not understand that it was an intercept.....DUH.
The intercept procedures and expected responses are specific and are pubished as follows:
The inteceptor will approach from the rear, in a flight of two. One will come alongside if you are fast enough, otherwise he will circle.
Signal- interceptor rocks wings
Means- you have been intercepted
Response- rock wings and tune 121.5
At night, the signal and response also include flashing nav lights
Signal- abrupt breakaway by interceptor (90deg turn)
Means- you may proceed
Response- rock wings
Signal- interceptor circles airport overflying in direction of landing with gear down, and at night with landing lights on
Means-land here
Response- lower gear and follow interceptor
Although I hope to never use these procedures, I have them on a kneeboard card just in case. If you find yourself being intercepted over or near a POTUS TFR you are making the military pilots and the secret service very tense. Having been a Secret Service agent I can tell you that they take their job as seriously as it gets. It is a zero defect operation, you cannot fail even once. Allowing harm to a protectee is absoultely not an option...pulling the trigger on a fool who seems to pose an immediate threat is.
N98HK is right. None of these guys want to hurt you, however they have a job to do and you can bet they will do it. Their first concern is to determine that you are not a threat. You can relax their concern by complying with the procedures that are published and which we are all expected to know.
If you just wave at an interceptor thinking that you are being treated to a private airshow, and continue toward POTUS, you and everyone aboard your aircraft will be in grave danger. We all owe it to ourselves, our passengers, and to GA to abide by these rules. We also owe it to the professionals who may have to pull the trigger on us and deal with the emotional aspects of that.
Perhaps all of you who read this already have a copy of the intercept procedures. If you do not, please print it out and keep it in your airplane.
One of the most embarassing things about this event was that the pilot reportedly said that he thought the F18 pilot was just trying to show him what the F18 "was all about".....he did not understand that it was an intercept.....DUH.
The intercept procedures and expected responses are specific and are pubished as follows:
The inteceptor will approach from the rear, in a flight of two. One will come alongside if you are fast enough, otherwise he will circle.
Signal- interceptor rocks wings
Means- you have been intercepted
Response- rock wings and tune 121.5
At night, the signal and response also include flashing nav lights
Signal- abrupt breakaway by interceptor (90deg turn)
Means- you may proceed
Response- rock wings
Signal- interceptor circles airport overflying in direction of landing with gear down, and at night with landing lights on
Means-land here
Response- lower gear and follow interceptor
Although I hope to never use these procedures, I have them on a kneeboard card just in case. If you find yourself being intercepted over or near a POTUS TFR you are making the military pilots and the secret service very tense. Having been a Secret Service agent I can tell you that they take their job as seriously as it gets. It is a zero defect operation, you cannot fail even once. Allowing harm to a protectee is absoultely not an option...pulling the trigger on a fool who seems to pose an immediate threat is.
N98HK is right. None of these guys want to hurt you, however they have a job to do and you can bet they will do it. Their first concern is to determine that you are not a threat. You can relax their concern by complying with the procedures that are published and which we are all expected to know.
If you just wave at an interceptor thinking that you are being treated to a private airshow, and continue toward POTUS, you and everyone aboard your aircraft will be in grave danger. We all owe it to ourselves, our passengers, and to GA to abide by these rules. We also owe it to the professionals who may have to pull the trigger on us and deal with the emotional aspects of that.
Perhaps all of you who read this already have a copy of the intercept procedures. If you do not, please print it out and keep it in your airplane.
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Since I seem to have stirred up the hornet's nest pretty good here.... here's another printout with intercept procedures. Until we can change the system, we have to know it and love it.
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/library/pdfs/intercept.pdf
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/library/pdfs/intercept.pdf
tonyjohnson
Well Known Member
they WILL shoot you
After I posted my previous post on this thread I remembered an incident that took place in the early 70's. The secret service shot a pilot who got too close to POTUS.
This is not a wives tale, I personally worked the case. If you are given an order by the Secret Service, comply immediatley. If the pilot in this case had done so he would have saved himself from being shot. He was only wounded, but I am willing to bet that he will respond much more rapidly in the future.
When they tell you to do something, they mean RIGHT D*&$ NOW!
After I posted my previous post on this thread I remembered an incident that took place in the early 70's. The secret service shot a pilot who got too close to POTUS.
This is not a wives tale, I personally worked the case. If you are given an order by the Secret Service, comply immediatley. If the pilot in this case had done so he would have saved himself from being shot. He was only wounded, but I am willing to bet that he will respond much more rapidly in the future.
When they tell you to do something, they mean RIGHT D*&$ NOW!
Tom Maxwell
Well Known Member
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death
I am not sure that complying with an FAA reg that we all agreed to obey in exchange for being able to fly an airplane, keeping up with the TFRs, and complying with a TFR which means taking a 50 mile (15 minute) detour to help keep the president safe, ranks up there with living under the oppressive rule of a foreign king. But hey, that is just me. -- Benjamin Franklin
There is an entire continuum of oppression and I guess we all have our lines-in-the-sand. This isn't mine nor do I believe the line for the majority of the people who frequent these boards. With all of our liberties at risk, I rank compliance with presidential TFRs pretty low on the totum pole of concerns.
I know the ole slippery slope argument, but in my mind if this is a slippery slope, it is covered with non-skid. When people agree to live together, they must agree to give up some individual liberties. It isn't a matter of all or none, it is a matter of how many. And as long as yahoos keep busting these airspace restrictions, you can bet the majority of the people who live in this country will be happy to allow those we have elected to take away their right to fly (which they don't care about) and ours as well.
So if we want to be martyrs and if we want to martyr our hobbie under the same umbrella as "Give me liberty or give me death," I guess we can. Now I don't think that is a slippery slope we want to head down. The first person to get shot out of the sky will not be place on the same historical pedestal as our founding fathers.
Be aware and comply - no ifs, ands, or buts about it!
I am not sure that complying with an FAA reg that we all agreed to obey in exchange for being able to fly an airplane, keeping up with the TFRs, and complying with a TFR which means taking a 50 mile (15 minute) detour to help keep the president safe, ranks up there with living under the oppressive rule of a foreign king. But hey, that is just me. -- Benjamin Franklin
There is an entire continuum of oppression and I guess we all have our lines-in-the-sand. This isn't mine nor do I believe the line for the majority of the people who frequent these boards. With all of our liberties at risk, I rank compliance with presidential TFRs pretty low on the totum pole of concerns.
I know the ole slippery slope argument, but in my mind if this is a slippery slope, it is covered with non-skid. When people agree to live together, they must agree to give up some individual liberties. It isn't a matter of all or none, it is a matter of how many. And as long as yahoos keep busting these airspace restrictions, you can bet the majority of the people who live in this country will be happy to allow those we have elected to take away their right to fly (which they don't care about) and ours as well.
So if we want to be martyrs and if we want to martyr our hobbie under the same umbrella as "Give me liberty or give me death," I guess we can. Now I don't think that is a slippery slope we want to head down. The first person to get shot out of the sky will not be place on the same historical pedestal as our founding fathers.
Be aware and comply - no ifs, ands, or buts about it!
Ralph Kramden
Active Member
Common sense ... just some common sense...
I'd just like to mention that I was not suggesting that anyone attempt to defy the TFRs or the interceptors or the USSS.
What I was trying to get across is that common sense needs to prevail in determining how to protect the country, our president and each other. Sending F-15s to intercept GA aircraft which are obviously not any possible threat to the president is just not sensible.
Furthermore, both military officers and United State Secret Service agents took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States. That constitution provides for the rights of the citizens to "due process of law", "freedom of expression", the right to protest, the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures and many others. Having a paranoid shoot-first-and-ask-questions-about-the-dumb-fool-later attitude is in great conflict with the oath they swore. In my personal opinion, the Constitution requires the government to use better discretion than it has been using with regard to security issues.
To summarize, don't be a boob - check for TFRs before you fly.
RK
I'd just like to mention that I was not suggesting that anyone attempt to defy the TFRs or the interceptors or the USSS.
What I was trying to get across is that common sense needs to prevail in determining how to protect the country, our president and each other. Sending F-15s to intercept GA aircraft which are obviously not any possible threat to the president is just not sensible.
Furthermore, both military officers and United State Secret Service agents took an oath to defend and protect the Constitution of the United States. That constitution provides for the rights of the citizens to "due process of law", "freedom of expression", the right to protest, the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures and many others. Having a paranoid shoot-first-and-ask-questions-about-the-dumb-fool-later attitude is in great conflict with the oath they swore. In my personal opinion, the Constitution requires the government to use better discretion than it has been using with regard to security issues.
To summarize, don't be a boob - check for TFRs before you fly.
RK
N941WR
Legacy Member
F-4 takes twin down
Back in the 80's an F-4 ran a drug interdiction intercept on a light twin carrying a family. The twin was on an IFR flight plan and in the clouds. The F-4 tucked in behind and below, in the shooting position while they tried to figure out who this guy was.
When the F-4 got the all clear, he made a climbing left turn just as ATC told the twin to turn left.
The right wing of the F-4 cut through the fuselage of the twin, the twin went down with four fatalities. The F-4 had some damage, including human hair imbedded on the right wing tip but landed safely.
No cries for justice and very little in the way of requested change.
Do you really think if someone is flying close to the POTUS with his family in an RV-10 and was shot down, the public would really care? I doubt it.
BTW, shortly after that incident some guys in a PA-28 where out over the Golf of Mexico practicing stalls and were mistaken for a drug runners. When they landed a Blackhawk landed right behind him, flipping the plane upside down even before they got off the runway.
When the guys crawled out of their damaged plane, covered in fuel, they where knocked to the ground and held and gun point. A radio call came in that the DEA had the wrong plane so the solders (agents?) got back in the chopper and left. Last I heard the guy was having a hard time getting the government to replace his plane or even acknowledge they did something wrong. This story was also from the 80?s so this may have been resolved, I never did hear the end of it.
Back in the 80's an F-4 ran a drug interdiction intercept on a light twin carrying a family. The twin was on an IFR flight plan and in the clouds. The F-4 tucked in behind and below, in the shooting position while they tried to figure out who this guy was.
When the F-4 got the all clear, he made a climbing left turn just as ATC told the twin to turn left.
The right wing of the F-4 cut through the fuselage of the twin, the twin went down with four fatalities. The F-4 had some damage, including human hair imbedded on the right wing tip but landed safely.
No cries for justice and very little in the way of requested change.
Do you really think if someone is flying close to the POTUS with his family in an RV-10 and was shot down, the public would really care? I doubt it.
BTW, shortly after that incident some guys in a PA-28 where out over the Golf of Mexico practicing stalls and were mistaken for a drug runners. When they landed a Blackhawk landed right behind him, flipping the plane upside down even before they got off the runway.
When the guys crawled out of their damaged plane, covered in fuel, they where knocked to the ground and held and gun point. A radio call came in that the DEA had the wrong plane so the solders (agents?) got back in the chopper and left. Last I heard the guy was having a hard time getting the government to replace his plane or even acknowledge they did something wrong. This story was also from the 80?s so this may have been resolved, I never did hear the end of it.
tonyjohnson
Well Known Member
the constitution
Ralph,
You are correct in that both the USSS and the military members who would be invloved in these issues swore to protect and defend the consitution. They also swore, at least the military personnel (I don't remember the USSS oath but it is similar) to obey the orders of those appointed over them.
Interpertaion of the consitution is not their perogative. They will follow their orders. Anyone who can fly an interceptor or be a USSS agent is an intelligent person who will have their own views of the constitution, but they understand the rule of law, which is essential to a constitutional government. Our discussion here of the wisdom of TFRs and the response to a violation of it is a benefit of that constitution but is only philosophically relevent to them.
As we debate the issues here we must respect the fact that they have orders, and will carry them out even if they disagree with the constituional basis for them.
I take no position as to whether we should have TFR's or whether we should be intercepted by fighters if we violate them. The law is what it is, and we must be prepared to comply until the laws are changed. I recoginze and respect the balance between personal freedoms and security. I hope that those who make the rules also understand and respect that balance.
Ralph,
You are correct in that both the USSS and the military members who would be invloved in these issues swore to protect and defend the consitution. They also swore, at least the military personnel (I don't remember the USSS oath but it is similar) to obey the orders of those appointed over them.
Interpertaion of the consitution is not their perogative. They will follow their orders. Anyone who can fly an interceptor or be a USSS agent is an intelligent person who will have their own views of the constitution, but they understand the rule of law, which is essential to a constitutional government. Our discussion here of the wisdom of TFRs and the response to a violation of it is a benefit of that constitution but is only philosophically relevent to them.
As we debate the issues here we must respect the fact that they have orders, and will carry them out even if they disagree with the constituional basis for them.
I take no position as to whether we should have TFR's or whether we should be intercepted by fighters if we violate them. The law is what it is, and we must be prepared to comply until the laws are changed. I recoginze and respect the balance between personal freedoms and security. I hope that those who make the rules also understand and respect that balance.
Tin Man - Why are you and your type so quick to acquiesce to the federal government?? First, enough about how it's done in the rest of the world, please!! Flying indeed will be a privilege bestowed by the "more equal" to the "little people" as those such as yourself keep eagerly handing over their liberties.tin man said:
The whole F-15, F-16, etc. intercepting GA planes is total BS! If there was indeed a threat, the Secret Svc should bring along 2-3 Phalanx guns or some stingers with Bush where he travels. A plane gets within 2 miles, just shoot it down!! If it's a threat, stop posturing and just do it.
And yes, I get inconvenienced by these useless TFRs 5-10 times a year.
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