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  #31  
Old 10-15-2019, 02:36 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Location: Sunman, IN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas View Post
Firstly, no Cessna EVER came new out of the factory with wiring like that. I would suggest if your 1957 C-172 had wiring worse than that then it had avionics upgrades/maintenance along the way performed by incompetent avionics technicians.

Really? No kidding. It got that way over 50+ years of additions and subtractions. No arguments about the technicians. Point is, it always worked, never had a problem and didn't present any dangerous situations in over half a century.

Secondly, bundling wire runs into looms is NOT about looking "pretty". It's all about organisation and safety. Bundling wires gives them superior support, limits unwanted movement, takes stresses off connections, and greatly reduces the possibility of wires chaffing on the airframe.

Organization, I will buy...safety, well, that is a subjective thing in this discussion. As has been posted, there are many, many examples of this kind of wiring that have stood the test of time with no adverse effects to the user. The rest of the statement I have no argument with; all of the examples you list are great examples but history has shown that the rat's nest has not necessarily been dangerous.


To me, dangerous building is about poor workmanship leading to a significantly increased possibility of an adverse outcome. I think that's pretty much what I see in the photo posted by the OP.
Wow, that's a huge generalization. Let's go to Oshkosh and look at the RVs there and grade them all on workmanship. How many would be above your particular subjective bar? Would you consider those below your bar to be of poor workmanships and therefore dangerous? What about those that are ABOVE your bar? Does that make yours look like poor workmanship and therefore dangerous?

Point is, what you may consider flawed and dangerous, might be someone else best effort...and if they at Oshkosh, they ALL passed muster and have an airworthiness certificate...and they were safe enough to FLY in...

As I have said before, I would not consider that rat's nest to MY standards and I would likely start over...but that would be for me only. It is, however, a flying aircraft and the owner likely has HIS own bar to meet...
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  #32  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:12 PM
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jcarne jcarne is offline
 
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Location: Worland, Wyoming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas View Post
Bundling wires gives them superior support, limits unwanted movement, takes stresses off connections, and greatly reduces the possibility of wires chaffing on the airframe.

To me, dangerous building is about poor workmanship leading to a significantly increased possibility of an adverse outcome. I think that's pretty much what I see in the photo posted by the OP.
I agree, wiring like what the OP posted negates any and all benefits of "strength in numbers" wire bundling. It may not be obviously dangerous but I will bet my next paycheck that you would see more failures with wiring like this than doing it properly. That being said, I'm not going to tell the OP to change his wiring, I have learned it is far too easy to make general statements on how to repair something on this forum if it's not your plane.
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Last edited by jcarne : 10-15-2019 at 07:16 PM.
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  #33  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:19 PM
Discus2b Discus2b is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Willis Gliderport
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OK, back to the Op...
He doesn’t like it. He wants advice.
He wants it to be pretty.
So...
Here we go.
1. Figure out a way to get the greatest access to the ... birdie nest.
This might require to remove other big items to get more vis, light.
Access from below while lying down might work best.
2. Note the wiring connectors and such...are you capable of soldering, crimping,
organizing, routing, electrical stuff.
3. My bet is most of your bird nest is excess wires that need to be routed in a
organize manner. To and from the device to the bus. Or a antenna. Etc.
4. Cell phone? Take pictures first of everything for ref. Then label before
disconnecting.
5. Organizing...fore and aft...left and right...zones...define routes.
Avoid crisscrossing. We are not ready to snip yet. Use twist ties to group.
To consolidate.
6. Now, you might just love all the work you just done and be satisfied not to
snip. Everything bundled, grouped, purty. Nothing burning, things running.
Or, press on to the next ‘Oshkosh ‘ award winning level.

Ain’t experimental liberating? You become the master of your desires. Even if you’re not the ‘repairman’ ad hoc. You tell your AnP “I want to make this right!”
He say...”find...knock yourself out. Let me know when your done. I’ ll take a look.”
As long as you don’t attract attention by crashing, burning or dying...
everybody is peaches.
When you’re done, take pictures. We ALL want to see...what happened to that cleco or switch or whatever that thang is in the first photo.

R
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  #34  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:44 PM
Pilotjim77 Pilotjim77 is offline
 
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Location: CHESHIRE, MA
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Thanks for all the good information and responses!

I can't answer all the posts, but I can say that the reason this became an issue at this time is due to problems with the radio. I went to remove it to have it bench tested, and I had a very difficult time just navigating the radio out from among all the wires. I also noticed at least two loose wires behind the panel, one black with a connector, and one white with no connector. So, I know I need to at the very least clean this mess up.

My plan for now is to trace each wire, one by one, label them all, and try to route them in something of a neat and logical way. I can then replace what needs replacing and at least know what goes where. I'm expecting it to be tedious and time consuming, but I'm OK with that. I have another airplane I can fly in the mean time.

There is no loose cleco in there, so I'm not sure what you guys might be seeing....maybe a stud on a bus?

I did purchase a book on wiring (Aircraft Wiring Guide by Marc Ausman). It is a good book with some good basics. I'll also buy some tools, wire, and connectors to have on hand.

Please give any other advice and guidance that would be helpful. I appreciate it.
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  #35  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:15 PM
j-red j-red is offline
 
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Location: Lewes, DE
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Helpful guidance:

Go to Ace and get about a thousand little 4-5” long light duty zip ties. they’re great for getting bundles together as you work on them. I find wiring to be soothing, and something that gives a sense of movement to the build. Go out each day and focus on a single circuit and add it to your bundle. use those little zip ties to keep it all together. the next day do another, clipping off the zip ties (light ones break easily which is good in this case), and replacing them as needed. Some form of heat shrink label will finish it off and make it look very professional.
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  #36  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:59 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Make sure to strain relieve. Wires hanging off connectors, wires vibrating, chaffing on structure can cause failures. Make sure you have service slack, no wires pulled tight. Have fun tracking and tracing wire runs. It's an acquired skill and pleasure.

Also try and start a power distribution system wiring diagram, alternator, battery, starter, relays, ground bus (if you have one), lights, switches, circuit breakers...

To document avionics is advanced and best attempted with the OEM manual. If you cant get into details show at least where the device gets power and circuit protection.

Speaking of protection make sure all power wires have fuse or CB. Keep in mind the protection is for the wire not device. There is a table of wire gage vs length and circuit production. You want fuse/CB to blow before wire smokes.

Of course the wire must be sufficient to provide power to device without getting too hot. Keep in mind bundling wires will make them run hotter.
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  #37  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:19 PM
Pilotjim77 Pilotjim77 is offline
 
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Location: CHESHIRE, MA
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I removed the instruments and the panel. Here is what it looks like behind the panel:

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  #38  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:23 PM
Pilotjim77 Pilotjim77 is offline
 
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This is the right side (co-pilot side). There are a couple of buses and some sort of circuit board. I have not traced any of the wires yet, just got the panel out and labeled a few wires that I had to disconnect.

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Last edited by Pilotjim77 : 10-16-2019 at 07:26 PM.
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  #39  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:28 PM
Pilotjim77 Pilotjim77 is offline
 
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...and the left side. There's another circuit board. That one bundle of wire with zip ties comes from the intercom.

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  #40  
Old 10-16-2019, 07:51 PM
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Vlad Vlad is offline
 
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Looks cleaner then mine
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