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David-aviator

Well Known Member
I fly locally a lot and never see another airplane - yesterday had 2 close encounters. One guy in a Mooney, appeared to have jumped me from 5 o'clock, I broke the other way in a 180 and he kept on going. The others was a Cherokee minding his own business.

I hate to spend more money on this airplane but it looks like ADS-B is a coming necessity. I don't like in flight surprises.
 
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David-aviator said:
I fly locally a lot and never see another airplane - yesterday had 2 close encountered. One guy a Mooney, appeared to have jumped me from 5 o'clock, I broke the other way in a 180 and he kept on going. The others was a Cherokee minding his own business.

I hate to spend more money on this airplane but it looks like ADS-B is a coming necessity. I don't like in flight surprises.
Click to expand...

I don't think ADS-B will help.

If a Mooney is jumping you from five o'clock, then that implies he already has a serious energy advantage. If he was set up for a close-in flight path overshoot, a break turn may temporarily neutralize his attack but he will still have a net energy advantage while you've just used more of your energy in the turn.

One option might be a lag/displacement roll to your left. This will force the Mooney to overshoot while preserving your energy state and putting you in an offensive position. Depending on his experience, the Mooney driver will likely extend and disengage. Be prepared for a rolling scissors however if the Mooney driver possesses the spirit of attack.

Not sure how ADS-B is of any help in this scenario. ;)
 
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Not a pleasant surprise . . .

David-aviator said:
I fly locally a lot and never see another airplane - yesterday had 2 close encountered. One guy a Mooney, appeared to have jumped me from 5 o'clock, I broke the other way in a 180 and he kept on going. The others was a Cherokee minding his own business.

I hate to spend more money on this airplane but it looks like ADS-B is a coming necessity. I don't like in flight surprises.
Click to expand...

A Mooney caught you? Flying around the Gulf Coast, there was a lot of traffic below 4000, so I tended to fly higher (or lower along the beach :roll eyes:).

Were you . . .climbing, cruising, landing, maneuvering?
 
PCAS

Have you flown with a simple PCAS device, Xaon or Monroy? They aren't 100% effective and are certainly no replacement for prudence, but they can provide a nice tap on the shoulder from time to time. I intend to keep mine in place even after adding adbs traffic. I'm sure it would have given you a few extra moments notice on at least one of your targets!

-jon
 
ChiefPilot said:
I don't think ADS-B will help.

If a Mooney is jumping you from five o'clock, then that implies he already has a serious energy advantage. If he was set up for a close-in flight path overshoot, a break turn may temporarily neutralize his attack but he will still have a net energy advantage while you've just used more of your energy in the turn.

One option might be a lag/displacement roll to your left. This will force the Mooney to overshoot while preserving your energy state and putting you in an offensive position. Depending on his experience, the Mooney driver will likely extend and disengage. Be prepared for a rolling scissors however if the Mooney driver possesses the spirit of attack.

Not sure how ADS-B is of any help in this scenario. ;)
Click to expand...


This... This reply right here.. is why the internet is awesome =)
 
BillL said:
A Mooney caught you? Flying around the Gulf Coast, there was a lot of traffic below 4000, so I tended to fly higher (or lower along the beach :roll eyes:).

Were you . . .climbing, cruising, landing, maneuvering?
Click to expand...

Cruising 6 gph at 1500 AGL - a sitting duck for sure. :)
 
mosquito said:
Have you flown with a simple PCAS device, Xaon or Monroy? They aren't 100% effective and are certainly no replacement for prudence, but they can provide a nice tap on the shoulder from time to time. I intend to keep mine in place even after adding adbs traffic. I'm sure it would have given you a few extra moments notice on at least one of your targets!

-jon
Click to expand...

Xaon or Zaon is dead, out of business, only collision avoidance devices with ACS and Sporty's are ADS-B. Will check out Monroy, I've used the other and it is better than nothing.
 
ChiefPilot said:
I don't think ADS-B will help.
One option might be a lag/displacement roll to your left. This will force the Mooney to overshoot while preserving your energy state and putting you in an offensive position. Depending on his experience, the Mooney driver will likely extend and disengage. Be prepared for a rolling scissors however if the Mooney driver possesses the spirit of attack.
Click to expand...

I disagree. ALWAYS break into the threat. In this case, a right break with chaff and flares into the bandit Mooney, in plane, but prepared to immediately and violently rudder out of plane if he attempts a guns track or snapshot. But then I too would anticipate an overshoot reversal opportunity if he doesn't arrest his energy surplus. Like you said, if his fangs are out, be ready for a rolling scissors. If he extends, he's giving you his 6, but your WEZ will be momentary: His energy advantage will set up his separation. :cool:
 
Personally, I make it a point to never fly slowly enough to be overtaken by a Mooney.

Push it up to 8 GPH... That should do it.:)
 
scrollF4 said:
I disagree. ALWAYS break into the threat. In this case, a right break with chaff and flares into the bandit Mooney, in plane, but prepared to immediately and violently rudder out of plane if he attempts a guns track or snapshot. But then I too would anticipate an overshoot reversal opportunity if he doesn't arrest his energy surplus. Like you said, if his fangs are out, be ready for a rolling scissors. If he extends, he's giving you his 6, but your WEZ will be momentary: His energy advantage will set up his separation. :cool:
Click to expand...

For sure. Re-reading, I wasn't very clear - the roll would happen after the break not instead of. And it's also dependent on how close-in the bandit is. If the Mooney is two turn radii away, that's a different scenario than if he's 1000yds out of course.

I hadn't considered chaff/flares at all, which could be fatal depending on what the Mooney was armed with :eek:
 
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If you can meet him neutral, you may have the chance to assess his energy then decide on a one- vs two-circle fight. Your RV's wide max-G maneuvering range makes it a natural for the radius fight if he decides to engage (the Mooney bandit will be a rate fighter).
 
Goose, I'm bringing him in closer, ( your doing WHAT?) I'll hit the breaks and he will fly right by!
 
DR, are you on? we need a new Forum - TACTICS!

this is great stuff! although most goes right over my head, it's amazing to read what goes thru the minds of those who are truly trained in 'situational awareness'.
The real take-away, is that some of the mindset and skills that will save your bacon in a situation with 'guns', also is very applicable ( energy, vector, radii, etc.) in a dangerous VFR close encounter!

thanks guys! ( even those Mooney bandits!...gotta have a target, right?)
 
I had a Cessna appear in the windshield the other morning at my 1 O'clock. The Zaon had chirped, indicating 3 miles (note: Zaon units are REALLY bad at assessing distance) and then blinked off, only to blink back on at about the same time it appeared less than a quarter mile away.

I always get mad at myself when I don't pick up the traffic, but I get more angry when I think that AGAIN, I didn't bother picking up flight following for a short flight. And I LIKE talking to MSP controllers.

As for Brad, well, it amazes me sometimes he ever got a first date. :D
 
I don't know about the rest of you, but I have had plenty of near misses while on flight following. ...Like "less than 100 feet, evasive action required" near misses. FF is a great tool, but don't relax your scan just because you think the guy on the ground "has your six"... Because he doesn't.
 
flyboy1963 said:
this is great stuff! although most goes right over my head, it's amazing to read what goes thru the minds of those who are truly trained in 'situational awareness'.
The real take-away, is that some of the mindset and skills that will save your bacon in a situation with 'guns', also is very applicable ( energy, vector, radii, etc.) in a dangerous VFR close encounter!

thanks guys! ( even those Mooney bandits!...gotta have a target, right?)
Click to expand...

I think my instincts to roll right ASAP with him rolling in at 4-5 o'clock were correct but beyond that he had me. I may have slipped away as he appeared to be an overshoot to the left. I followed him a ways until he did a sharp left turn, I had no desire to tangle so did likewise to the right and departed the area.

Many years ago I was trained in the F-86L in all weather intercept, mostly night IFR type flying under radar control. We had one lesson on day fighter tactics - and that probably was thrown in because our flight commander had been a fighter pilot in Korea in F-80's and the 86. He was lead in that lesson which was nothing compared to what day fighter guys experienced, a roll in from perch and as he commented on my effort, good job you rolled your socks down on that one.

What really matters today, in our environment, is the same as always, see and be seen - preferably to see before being seen. It is so important!! The aids we have with flight following, ADS-B and whatever else there is are great but there is no substitute for situational awareness and a visual scan IMHO.

Long live aviators - at least as long as possible. :)
 
David-aviator said:
Xaon or Zaon is dead, out of business, only collision avoidance devices with ACS and Sporty's are ADS-B. Will check out Monroy, I've used the other and it is better than nothing.
Click to expand...
The Xaon XRX is really quite good at detecting traffic. Presently I am running a Xaon XRX on my GRT moving map while running a Garmin GDL-39 on my 695 GPS. The Xaon almost always reports traffic long before the GDL-39 does (if it ever does).

I don't think I would disregard buying a used Xaon unit. I have seen several for sale on this forum in the past few months. I know the company is out of business but as long as the unit is operational I cannot see why it would not continue working for many many years. The electronics in the unit really don't care that the manufacturer is no longer making new ones. It will still work as long as electricity and data signals flow through it.
 
Trolling anyone?

Troll the guy. If he had missiles you'd already be toast or he's just a 'gunner'. Max power and turn into him with just enough 'G' to prevent a firing solution. Trade off some altitude to maintain your energy. He'll think you haven't seen him. If he dissipates energy (slows down) to saddle up for the shot, you can then apply the rest of your available 'G' to force an overshoot. Now it's your turn!! If he keeps his energy and pitches up (high yo-yo) it may be time to 'bugout' while he is nose high. A high wing (C-180) vs low wing (Mooney) in a turning fight is not a good idea. Always watch out for dash 2!
****This all is assuming his aircraft has a performance advantage.
 
jdearborn said:
Troll the guy. If he had missiles you'd already be toast or he's just a 'gunner'. Max power and turn into him with just enough 'G' to prevent a firing solution. Trade off some altitude to maintain your energy. He'll think you haven't seen him. If he dissipates energy (slows down) to saddle up for the shot, you can then apply the rest of your available 'G' to force an overshoot. Now it's your turn!! If he keeps his energy and pitches up (high yo-yo) it may be time to 'bugout' while he is nose high. A high wing (C-180) vs low wing (Mooney) in a turning fight is not a good idea. Always watch out for dash 2!
****This all is assuming his aircraft has a performance advantage.
Click to expand...

I'll second that. Chief Pilot may actually have seen that before... Not sure, Hmmm... :)
 
Need to Turn the Transponder on

David-aviator said:
I fly locally a lot and never see another airplane - yesterday had 2 close encountered. One guy a Mooney, appeared to have jumped me from 5 o'clock, I broke the other way in a 180 and he kept on going. The others was a Cherokee minding his own business.

I hate to spend more money on this airplane but it looks like ADS-B is a coming necessity. I don't like in flight surprises.
Click to expand...

The problem is that for ADS-B to work the other guy has to have a transponder installed and ON. I fly under the DFW Class B shelf (obviously within the Mode C veil) where use of a transponder is mandatory. I am surprised how many planes I see that are not showing up on the ADS-B in (such as the traffic patterns at local airports).

Please, please if you have a transponder, turn it on every time you fly, even where it is not "required".
 
ChiefPilot said:
I don't think ADS-B will help.

If a Mooney is jumping you from five o'clock, then that implies he already has a serious energy advantage. If he was set up for a close-in flight path overshoot, a break turn may temporarily neutralize his attack but he will still have a net energy advantage while you've just used more of your energy in the turn.

One option might be a lag/displacement roll to your left. This will force the Mooney to overshoot while preserving your energy state and putting you in an offensive position. Depending on his experience, the Mooney driver will likely extend and disengage. Be prepared for a rolling scissors however if the Mooney driver possesses the spirit of attack.

Not sure how ADS-B is of any help in this scenario. ;)
Click to expand...

But if he [the RV driver] went into a right cross he could immediately go to guns on him. Oh wait, maybe that's too aggressive... :D
 
Flying again! said:
The problem is that for ADS-B to work the other guy has to have a transponder installed and ON. I fly under the DFW Class B shelf (obviously within the Mode C veil) where use of a transponder is mandatory. I am surprised how many planes I see that are not showing up on the ADS-B in (such as the traffic patterns at local airports).

Please, please if you have a transponder, turn it on every time you fly, even where it is not "required".
Click to expand...

I'm in a hangar with 3 other planes near the interior rings of a Class B area. I'm the only plane in that hangar that has an electrical system and is required to have a transponder. Of course it's on all the time, but those other guys don't even have them. Best not rely on anything but keeping a good lookout. I fly planes with TCAS at work and they are great, but we never completely trust it. Every once in a while we have one of those moments... "where did that guy come from?"
 
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GIB?

I thought it was the backseater's job to look out for traffic from the rear.

While this is a side-by-side, it illustrates the concept.
 
Flying again! said:
The problem is that for ADS-B to work the other guy has to have a transponder installed and ON. I fly under the DFW Class B shelf (obviously within the Mode C veil) where use of a transponder is mandatory. I am surprised how many planes I see that are not showing up on the ADS-B in (such as the traffic patterns at local airports).

Please, please if you have a transponder, turn it on every time you fly, even where it is not "required".
Click to expand...

Well, in fact, if you have one installed, it is "required" that it be turned on, even where it is not "required", except in the fairly rare case of Class G airspace. See 91.215(c)
 
ChiefPilot said:
I don't think ADS-B will help.

If a Mooney is jumping you ...
One option might be a lag/displacement roll to your left. This will force the Mooney to overshoot while preserving your energy state and putting you in an offensive position. Depending on his experience, the Mooney driver will likely extend and disengage. Be prepared for a rolling scissors however if the Mooney driver possesses the spirit of attack.

Not sure how ADS-B is of any help in this scenario. ;)
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the ADS-B be an asset for keeping track of where the Mooney is?
One thing I've never quite grasped is how you can keep sight on the opponent as both aircraft maneuver after a neutral break.
 
scsmith said:
One thing I've never quite grasped is how you can keep sight on the opponent as both aircraft maneuver after a neutral break.
Click to expand...

Especially at jet speeds and low vis paint schemes. Very sore necks the next day. :D

Bevan
 
scsmith said:
Wouldn't the ADS-B be an asset for keeping track of where the Mooney is?
One thing I've never quite grasped is how you can keep sight on the opponent as both aircraft maneuver after a neutral break.
Click to expand...

No time to look at ADS-B. Regarding how you do it, kind of like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZ0FivVPsU

...and yes, if your neck isn't somewhat sore the next day, you didn't do a great job. This was at no more than about 5G; I can't imagine how painful 9 would be.

Full Disclosure: I've learned from professionals, but am only a hobbyist and not a military-trained pilot.
 
I was talking with approach not too long ago, had a squawk code and was being vectored to the final approach coarse (VFR conditions and no hood). Had just centered on the localizer and was about to cross the FAF. They called traffic two miles at my 2 o'clock. Um, no, it's directly in front of me my altitude. I climbed a few hundred feet to go over it - a Cessna 172. I'd been watching him for ten seconds or so before they called it...

Paraphrasing Jurassic Park......traffic finds a way.

And that A2A dogfight talk, what parts I understood, was pretty funny <g>.
 
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Steve51B said:
I'm in a hangar with 3 other planes near the interior rings of a Class B area. I'm the only plane in that hangar that has an electrical system and is required to have a transponder. Of course it's on all the time, but those other guys don't even have them.
Click to expand...

I think I am at the same airport so thanks for the heads up. Do they have a radio?
 
"Scroll" speaketh the truth. As only an F-4 pilot can speaketh it.

Been there, done that, and even taught it!!

BTW, a classic rolling scissors in two RV's can be done inside a small indoor stadium! Canopy to Canopy is scary when you are used to jet speeds!! :eek:



scrollF4 said:
I disagree. ALWAYS break into the threat. In this case, a right break with chaff and flares into the bandit Mooney, in plane, but prepared to immediately and violently rudder out of plane if he attempts a guns track or snapshot. But then I too would anticipate an overshoot reversal opportunity if he doesn't arrest his energy surplus. Like you said, if his fangs are out, be ready for a rolling scissors. If he extends, he's giving you his 6, but your WEZ will be momentary: His energy advantage will set up his separation. :cool:
Click to expand...
 
scrollF4 said:
I disagree. ALWAYS break into the threat. In this case, a right break with chaff and flares into the bandit Mooney, in plane, but prepared to immediately and violently rudder out of plane if he attempts a guns track or snapshot. But then I too would anticipate an overshoot reversal opportunity if he doesn't arrest his energy surplus. Like you said, if his fangs are out, be ready for a rolling scissors. If he extends, he's giving you his 6, but your WEZ will be momentary: His energy advantage will set up his separation. :cool:
Click to expand...

Interesting. I did instinctively roll into him, he in fact zoomed by and quite by accident I found myself at his six. He must have wondered where I was when he suddenly broke left in a steep turn. That's when I broke right and departed the area not knowing for sure where this might lead too. :)

Looking back, maybe I could have been a fighter pilot except that SAC drafted our entire F-86 class due to a shortage of bomber and tanker pilots. it was fate, as they say, quite a number of guys did not survive VN in fighters, no tanker pilots bit the dust that I know of although we did see a MIG one day. He high tailed it when he saw the 2 F-4's escorting us. The KC-135 had no defense except to go full throttle and depart the area. The 135 would go through Mach 1 straight and level although is was forbidden due to mach meter error.

Those were days of uncertainty - seemed like that conflict would never end. One of my friends in the tanker outfit volunteered for 105's, the shortage was reversed now due to Thud losses, he was killed on his first mission up north. We set up a tanker cross country from Texas to California to get him on his way to VN after 105 training that November. Three months later we attended a funeral service in OK, his body was never recovered. War is ****, don't ever think it isn't and that one was awful with its politically imposed limitations. Over 59,000 body bags and no victory, what a mess it was.
 
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David-aviator said:
Interesting. I did instinctively roll into him, he in fact zoomed by and quite by accident I found myself at his six. He must have wondered where I was when he suddenly broke left in a steep turn. That's when I broke right and departed the area not knowing for sure where this might lead too. :)

Looking back, maybe I could have been a fighter pilot except that SAC drafted our entire F-86 class due to a shortage of bomber and tanker pilots. it was fate, as they say, quite a number of guys did not survive VN in fighters, no tanker pilots bit the dust that I know of although we did see a MIG one day. He high tailed it when he saw the 2 F-4's escorting us. The KC-135 had no defense except to go full throttle and depart the area. The 135 would go through Mach 1 straight and level although is was forbidden due to mach meter error.

Those were days of uncertainty - seemed like that conflict would never end. One of my friends in the tanker outfit volunteered for 105's, the shortage was reversed now due to Thud losses, he was killed on his first mission up north. We set up a tanker cross country from Texas to California to get him on his way to VN after 105 training that November. Three months later we attended a funeral service in OK, his body was never recovered. War is ****, don't ever think it isn't and that one was awful with its politically imposed limitations. Over 59,000 body bags and no victory, what a mess it was.
Click to expand...
Mr. Domeier, no words can express the feelings I have when talking with true battle honed veterans. I am a veteran but will openly admit that I was in the military during peace time and not for very long at that. For those of you who experienced the horrors of war I have great respect for all of you. Your post puts an exclamation on the mental pictures of a small glimpse of what you must have experienced during that time. Thank you sir for your service. And thank you goes to all who endured combat in past conflicts.

To all of you:
Live Long and Prosper!
 
David-aviator said:
Xaon or Zaon is dead, out of business, only collision avoidance devices with ACS and Sporty's are ADS-B. Will check out Monroy, I've used the other and it is better than nothing.
Click to expand...

RVbySDI said:
The Xaon XRX is really quite good at detecting traffic. Presently I am running a Xaon XRX on my GRT moving map while running a Garmin GDL-39 on my 695 GPS. The Xaon almost always reports traffic long before the GDL-39 does (if it ever does).

I don't think I would disregard buying a used Xaon unit. I have seen several for sale on this forum in the past few months. I know the company is out of business but as long as the unit is operational I cannot see why it would not continue working for many many years. The electronics in the unit really don't care that the manufacturer is no longer making new ones. It will still work as long as electricity and data signals flow through it.
Click to expand...
Here is the latest unit for sale on the forum (although I see now it might already be taken):
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=131172
 
RVbySDI said:
Mr. Domeier, no words can express the feelings I have when talking with true battle honed veterans. I am a veteran but will openly admit that I was in the military during peace time and not for very long at that. For those of you who experienced the horrors of war I have great respect for all of you. Your post puts an exclamation on the mental pictures of a small glimpse of what you must have experienced during that time. Thank you sir for your service. And thank you goes to all who endured combat in past conflicts.

To all of you:
Live Long and Prosper!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kudos. I don't deserve them. The cushiest job over there was being on a tanker crew and we knew it. The days and nights were long, we flew upwards of a 100 hours a month, but we slept in a real bed, had hot food and cold beer every night.

Our crew slept in a tent just one night after a day when 2 of 4 105's were shot down. We topped off all of them going in and then the 2 still flying again, again and again as they kept going back in to cover the downed guys until a chopper could pick them up. We ran very low on fuel and spent the night at the 105 forward base. The only concrete at the place was the runway and ramp, the rest of it was water, floating walk ways, bugs, snakes and tents.

If the moderators will be patient with this digression, I'd like to mention a real hero I met a couple weeks ago at young eagles rally, his grandkids were getting a ride.

He is a retired Marine Sargent. His job was to trek into the Ho Chi Min Trail through the jungle and plant seismic sensors along it. These guys carried rations, weapons, and the devices through enemy territory, slept on the ground, planted the devices along the trail and made there way out same as coming in. The operation was classified until just recently so he could talk about it. These devices were very high tech back then, picked up traffic on the trail, transmitted it to receivers somewhere and were programmed to self destruct by an explosive charge after so many days. He said it was really tricky to get in there, not have them blow up while going through the jungle and not being detected by the Vietcong. This guy was tough, even at age 70+ he was impressive.

We all serve when called, some of us just serve a little more intensely than others, like the Marine Sargent.

Flew again today with absolutely no traffic sighted. It was so quiet tower cleared me to land six miles out...go figure, but it sure is not reason to relax the scan. The enemy is out there.
 
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ok you got overtaken by a Mooney and you are admitting it?:confused: I'd sooner admit to bed wetting or the clap.

Oh wait... 7A.... never mind.
 
David-aviator said:
...I'd like to mention a real hero I met a couple weeks ago...
Click to expand...

Similar story, while working the concessions stand at my son's school basket ball game a couple of years ago. I met an older gentleman, who was the grandfather of one of my son's classmates and raising his granddaughter. We got to talking and he mentioned he was also an Air Force vet and Thud driver. I later learned he earned one of theses...

$_35.JPG


Great guy, you'd never know he was a real life patch wearing Thud Driver. He was very humble and just said that he was "just doing his job". Although I do think since he knew I am a 24 year AF vet & I understood what it took to earn that patch, he appreciated the thanks I offered him.
 
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