Plane Power Failure (or: "Why I didn't make OSH")

My plan was to launch for OSH on Wednesday. Weather was absolutely horrible here on Wednesday so we loaded up on Thursday and launched. Half-way across Tennessee my alternator "idiot" light came on and I observed a corresponding drop in main buss voltage to 12.2 volts. The idiot light was actually intermittent and was erratically flashing, from which I surmised I had a broken wire.

I shut down the alternator, energized the e-buss then shut down the master switch. I shed some additional load by shutting off my GX-50 GPS (I have a 496 in the panel). We made it back home (80nm) and I never saw the main buss voltage drop by even a one tenth of a volt (those little PC-680 batteries are awesome).

Back at home, I pulled the cowl and started tracing alternator wires. The alternator failure light I have mounted on my panel will illuminate with the master switch on, but if the alternator is ON (but no engine turning) the light will get noticeably brighter. I cycled the alternator off and on and observed the light changing brightness. I push and pulled on all the wires and tried cycling the alternator power again....this time the light stayed dim. I noticed a faint buzzing noise coming from the alternator when I would wiggle the wires going into the plug on the back. I pulled on those wires and the center wire (field wire) pulled out of the back. The pin had broken in two and the buzzing sound was arching. The wire was properly vibration isolated.

I went everywhere looking for a pin so I could do a repair and launch us for OSH. Everyone was clueless. I've gotta tell you, Autozone, Advance Auto Parts, and even NAPA are useless unless you can give them a make and model of a car. I even found an alternator rebuild shop. They had the male pins but no female ones.

So basically I was stuck.

I called Plane Power on the phone and they told me they would send me new pins but I would have to pay for shipping. I spoke with one of their guys for quite a while and he explained to me how to remove the broken pin from the plastic shell. I managed to sufficiently bugger up the plastic shell that I felt as though I needed a new one. They told me they would sell me one for 7 bucks and some change, which was fine by me. The shipping was going to be astronomical, and they even agreed to pay overnight shipping for the new connector and pins. This for an alternator that was out of warranty about 6 months. That's GREAT customer service!

I received the package on Friday, crimped the new pin and installed it and test flew the airplane. Everything was back to normal.

I think part of the problem is the center connector is the field wire plus a jumper in one pin. I think it may simply be too much strain on the pin. If it breaks again I will probably try splitting the wires outside of the shell instead of feeding two wires into one pin.

Too bad I missed OSH this year. I really would have liked to have seen the A-380 and other things, but there's always next year I suppose.

Jamie,
An excellent example of why the use of widely available automotive alternators has its advantages. These custom alternators and mounts that are available for RV's, while may or may not be more reliable than automotive ones, can leave you stranded at home, or on the road.

Alternators fail regularly. Everyone has their "mine still running after 1000 hours, mine died in 5" etc. But I can tell you after having spent 10 years and thousands of RV hours traveling with lots and lots of RV's, its a part that routinely fails. When they fail, there is nothing better than landing in any small town America, finding any auto parts store, and picking one up. I even keep my receipt in my plane for when mine fails. I've replaced it on the road (Was in Denver the last time), swapped out with a new one with my receipt and lifetime warrantee, and was back in business in no time.

We had one fail during the 37 ship practice last week. We went to Autozone and got another one, bolt on, back in the air in an hour. Pretty simple.

Sorry you could not make it. I personally would not launch across country with an alternator I could not easily replace anywhere. Its just one of those parts that seems to quit often.
Best,

Kahuna:

I get what you're saying (and I can certainly see advantages to using an off the shelf alternator), but my failure was not on the alternator itself...it was on the connector. A new alternator wouldn't have helped my situation.

The oval 3-wire plug/pins I needed was a standard ND part, but apparently no one carries it. In fact, Autozone had a blister pack with the correct connector in it but it had leads on it that would have required that I cut my wires and use butt-splice connectors or solder sleeves. In retrospect I could have done that but I like to leave the least number of breaks in the wire as possible.

I side with Kahuna on the "easy replacement" alternators (I have gone that way on both planes we have, with great results), but also agree with Jamie on the difficulty in finding that dang plug! They are just about impossible to buy in a hurry - when I needed one to rewire Mikey awhile back, even Van didn't have them in stock - they were back-ordered for a long time. If you find them available, buy a few!

Jamie - you talk about "pins" - the plugs on the automotive alternators are really blade-style connectors (that is the plug I am talking about, with three "slots" in the plug) - is it the same thing for Plane Power, or different? With the blade-style connector, you can get away with individual blade conectors on wires if you have to - just be careful to hook them up the right way!

Paul

Tip regarding alternator connectors

My ND automotive alternator failed intermittently because of a loosened connector, and I had the same problem with not being able to find a replacement connector.

However, the "pins" on my alternator are actually blades that accept a standard Fast-on terminal (the same as used in the rest of my electrical system). I threw away the cheap plastic shell and just connected the control wire with a Fast-on, and no problems since (need to secure the wire to protect the connection from vibration).

Perhaps this works with the Plane Power alternator as well?

Jamie said:

Kahuna:

I get what you're saying (and I can certainly see advantages to using an off the shelf alternator), but my failure was not on the alternator itself...it was on the connector. A new alternator wouldn't have helped my situation.

The oval 3-wire plug/pins I needed was a standard ND part, but apparently no one carries it. In fact, Autozone had a blister pack with the correct connector in it but it had leads on it that would have required that I cut my wires and use butt-splice connectors or solder sleeves. In retrospect I could have done that but I like to leave the least number of breaks in the wire as possible.

Click to expand...

As you correctly pointed out in your subject, its a Plane Power failure. Meaning that since you have an alternator with a connector and pins that are not easily and readily available at even an alternator repair house, you were stuck. Alternator failure or not, the use of the plane power system resulted in you not being able to easily repair in the field.

Had this been a connector or pin or alternator failure of an automotive installation, any or all of those could have been repaired/replaced anywhere.

Ironflight said:

Jamie - you talk about "pins" - the plugs on the automotive alternators are really blade-style connectors (that is the plug I am talking about, with three "slots" in the plug) - is it the same thing for Plane Power, or different? With the blade-style connector, you can get away with individual blade conectors on wires if you have to - just be careful to hook them up the right way!

Click to expand...

Interesting. These pins were actually rectangular in profile and most closely resembled molex-style connectors in size. I have the old Van's 70amp alternator in a box at home and it has a round connector which you could you could use the spade connectors on.

Here is the connector on the plane power unit. If you used an off the shelf alternator from certain Toyota models you would be using the same connector, hence you would have been in the same situation as me with regard to finding replacement parts.

I agonized over a connector for my alternator a few years back. Then I realized I could simply put terminal connectors on the ends of the 3 individual wires; plug them into the alternator; tie-wrap them for both security (so they don't pull loose) and strain relief; and voila'.

Might not be as pretty, but if it meets the need...

plane power

A lot of people have had trouble with Alternators from plane power. I will be selling a replacement kit soon . It is in testing now and will sell for 70-100 dollors less.

Jamie said:

If you used an off the shelf alternator from certain Toyota models you would be using the same connector, hence you would have been in the same situation as me with regard to finding replacement parts.

Click to expand...

Ahh. I should have been clearer. I meant to say that had this been a connector or pin or alternator failure of an automotive installation that we commonly use in RV's, any or all of those could have been repaired/replaced anywhere.

Ive not seen anyone use a Toyota alternator. The ND unit used by Vans and other auto manufacturers do have readily available pins, connectors, and replacement parts in the field.

Food for thought

Now this kind of peaked my interest. I have just ordered my engine and am finalizing my vans fwfd kits additions and deletions. I have heard lots of good things about plane power. Mattituck has a mitsubishi internally regulated at a good price...
I had just expected to go plane power and pay the diff for what i thought was quality. I guess it is quality but a pita to service if needed. I am only building a vfr ship, glass will all have back up batteries and mags on one side of engine. Seems maybe the cheaper, possibly less reliable but easier to fix/replace unit might just be the better choice. Hmmmm. I am hoping to do a fair bit of xcountry to places UPS doesnt visit often.

Always more to think about...

Hmm

Well purely personally I have not heard of a single PP failure, other than this one so I don't regret the purchase.

Now, a good idea would be to find out where to get those pins..Anyone know?

These will be added to the XC toolkit along with Skytech starter solenoid, a Pmag (you never know), two spare tubes, a spare electric fuel pump..And maybe an engine..

Frank

which one are you using?

Kahuna,
Can you post the type of alternator you're using? (what kind of car do you tell the guys at the auto parts store that you have)

Is it internally or externally regulated? (not to start that war.. I've had both)

jeffrj2007 said:

A lot of people have had trouble with Alternators from plane power. I will be selling a replacement kit soon . It is
in testing now and will sell for 70-100 dollors less.

Click to expand...

Everyone that reads this with little knowledge is now going to go off the deep end and say that PP alternators are bad voodoo....

Well that just ain't true, the PP alt's have a well proven background of being a fine alternator.

Show me the post that constitute "A lot of people" reporting failures of the PP alternators????????

I for one have rarely even thought of my plane power alternator in 280 hours (which is a good thing). It hasn't skipped a beat. Perhaps the title of my post was a little unfair, since the failure wasn't internal to the alternator.

Plane power

Hey Brian.

I have talked to lots of people way more knowledgeable then me who swear by plane power. No question they make a great product..heard of little in the way of issues and always quickly resolved with great service. Kahuna made a good point...and based on my mission...well worth consideration. No knock on Plane Power...likely the best quality alt.

Jamie said:

I for one have rarely even thought of my plane power alternator in 280 hours (which is a good thing). It hasn't skipped a beat. Perhaps the title of my post was a little unfair, since the failure wasn't internal to the alternator.

Click to expand...

Yep, it was a broken wire and nothing more.

Could happen anywhere in the airplane like the broken wire I found at one headset jack a day before blasting off for the big show, about went nuts trying to find what was causing the problem which was easily fixed once discovered.

Thanks for posting your experience, some of us will be checking the wire attach at the unit to make sure it is secure. I have the PP unit and so far it is working fine although it is just since January.

ClayR_9A said:

Kahuna,
Can you post the type of alternator you're using? (what kind of car do you tell the guys at the auto parts store that you have)

Is it internally or externally regulated? (not to start that war.. I've had both)

Click to expand...

Stolen from another post. Lost of discussiosn on it. Nippon Denso 14684, and the more modern # 14870 which crosses to quite a few other manufacturers in the field.
====
Lester Nos: 14684


The alternator you want is Used On:
(1988-87) Chevrolet Sprint 1.0L
(1995-86) Suzuki Samurai 1.3L
(1989) Suzuki Sidekick 1.3L

Replaces:
Nippondenso 100211-141, 100211-155, 100211-407

It is a 12 Volt, single grove, IR/IF (internal Regulator / internal fan) 55 amp*** alternator

Plane Power supporter

I had 2 alternator failures with Vans internally reg. units within 50 hours. Plane Power for me. Maybe I'll buy an extra one of those connectors, but I will never go back to the Vans unit after 400 hrs of reliable PP service.

Jamie said:

We made it back home (80nm) and I never saw the main buss voltage drop by even a one tenth of a volt (those little PC-680 batteries are awesome).

Click to expand...

Timely post. My alternator just failed yesterday while returning to Corpus from Osh. Flew THREE HOURS on battery alone before it finally gave it up. For point of reference, it took about 3hrs for the battery to go from 12.4 volts to 10.0 volts, at which time it began to rapidly fall below 8.0 volts (I have the Van's volt gauge, only shows as low as 8.0). I have LSE ignition, and at this point I pulled the LSE breaker and the volts rose back to about 9.5. Limped the rest of the way home (12 minutes) on my one mag. This is my 2nd Van's alternator failure in just under 700hrs, so I'm done with those. Someone with over 2,500hrs in RVs has highly recommended B&C to me, which I'm seriously considering even though they cost a lot more.

tobinbasford said:

Someone with over 2,500hrs in RVs...

Click to expand...

Well, I believe Kahuna has close to 3000 hrs now, so I at least listen to what he has to say, even if I completely choose to ignore him afterward.

Not to start another war but how many of you who have had failures pull the breaker on the alternator excite field as part of your preflight test?

This is bad for the alternator and can cause failures. A better way to check to see if it is working is to look at your gauges as you add load.

tobinbasford said:

Someone with over 2,500hrs in RVs has highly recommended B&C to me, which I'm seriously considering even though they cost a lot more.

Click to expand...

Over 1000 on our B&C with no problems (at least none in the logbook--I've had it only over 150.) You get what you pay for.

Bob Kelly

Not to start another war but how many of you who have had failures pull the breaker on the alternator excite field as part of your preflight test?

This is bad for the alternator and can cause failures. A better way to check to see if it is working is to look at your gauges as you add load.

Click to expand...

Bill-

I have purchased a B&C SD20 to back up the Plane Power Alternator that comes with FW FWD kit. Since I will have the SD20, I need to stop the primary Plane Power unit to make sure the back up is running.

I asked both B&C and Plane Power this question last week at Oshkosh. They both said stopping the field wire would have NO effect on the life of the alternator. Should I not believe this?

pmccoy said:

Bill-

I have purchased a B&C SD20 to back up the Plane Power Alternator that comes with FW FWD kit. Since I will have the SD20, I need to stop the primary Plane Power unit to make sure the back up is running.

I asked both B&C and Plane Power this question last week at Oshkosh. They both said stopping the field wire would have NO effect on the life of the alternator. Should I not believe this?

Click to expand...

Peter,

I don't know about the B&C and PP units. If they say it is OK, then it should be just fine.

The ND that Van's sells seems to go Tango Uniform with this test. My Van's IR alternator was lent to a friend who burned his up, had it rebuilt, burned it up again, and when he tried mine it died before he even took off. It turns out he was pulling the breaker, which killed them. BTW, he had mine rebuilt and I didn't have any issues with it until it hit that trailer back in June. At that time it had around 250 hours of trouble free operation.

PP Connector

I just got my new PP alternator and the plug does not look anything like the one in the pictures above. The contacts are blades. Big ones. Just data.

Here we go with every ones mine is bigger than yours stories. All of the antidotal evidence does nothing to advance anyone's cause since we neither know the install base, nor the failure rates. It does not move the ball forward one bit for there to be 100 posts on one persons experience with their alternators. Why all the defense of YOUR alternators?
Mine failed twice.
Mine lasted 800.
Mine did this.
Mine did that.
No one can make decisions on this since the required data for comparisons are not released by the manufacturers.

Generally speaking, none of these businesses (Vans, Plane Power, B&C, stick your company here) would survive long selling these units if there were not some reasonably low field failure rate. These are low margin items.

These mechanical devices will fail. When it does, where will you be and how will you be able to get back in the air again?

I find most RV'ers really dont go far from home for the most part. Having a difficult to replace unit, plug, pulley, or connector, is no big deal for them.

I find that for the most part I am away from home. Its critical for me that I be able to replace mine in the field and get going fast. All of my 7 alternators have failed far away from home. Murphys law I suppose. I have experienced an average MTBF of ~400hrs. That is at least some measure of realibaility.

Since I generally fly in flocks, I get to see failures of others too. Some of the units listsed above are not servicable in the field. Ive seen the consequences of that too. I choose to use one I can swap anywhere, including foreign countries, where we are also in our flocks and have had alternator failures.

Since none guarantee time in service, or will produce any data for us, and since none will repair mine for me, I have to choose ease of service in the field. Whether or not I sacrifice time in service, it matters not to me.

Ive seen em all go. Its just a matter of time.

B&C for me.

Just about to hit 1000hrs with BC, no problems. I also have the BC SD20 just in case and it still works too

Kahuna said:

The alternator you want is Used On:
(1988-87) Chevrolet Sprint 1.0L
(1995-86) Suzuki Samurai 1.3L
(1989) Suzuki Sidekick 1.3L

Replaces:
Nippondenso 100211-141, 100211-155, 100211-407

It is a 12 Volt, single grove, IR/IF (internal Regulator / internal fan) 55 amp*** alternator

Click to expand...

Do these alternators come with the appropriate v-groove pully?

Suzuki does

Jamie said:

Do these alternators come with the appropriate v-groove pully?

Click to expand...

The 93 Suzuki does. Bosch Model 14824.

My Van's alt survived..

N941WR said:

Peter,

I don't know about the B&C and PP units. If they say it is OK, then it should be just fine.

The ND that Van's sells seems to go Tango Uniform with this test. My Van's IR alternator was lent to a friend who burned his up, had it rebuilt, burned it up again, and when he tried mine it died before he even took off. It turns out he was pulling the breaker, which killed them. BTW, he had mine rebuilt and I didn't have any issues with it until it hit that trailer back in June. At that time it had around 250 hours of trouble free operation.

Click to expand...

I took my alternator field off line by accident. Just didn't realize that I had knocked the red alt switch during flight. Voltage had dropped to 11.2 before I noticed.

At the same time, this also disconnected the B-lead from the alternator, because I still had the relay from an over voltage setup that has been discontinued...........thanks to the possibility of destroying the "Van's" 60 amp internally regulated alternator (as you've mentioned).

Happily, nothing happened; and it still works fine.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

another try

Kahuna said:

All of the antidotal evidence does nothing to advance anyone's cause since we neither know the install base, nor the failure rates. It does not move the ball forward one bit for there to be 100 posts on one persons experience with their alternators. Why all the defense of YOUR alternators?
.

Click to expand...

Here's my take on this. I agree with Kahuna that personal preferences don't say that much about failure rates, etc. He certainly has more experience and a much different mission than I have.

I'll try to be a little more specific. I'm a first time builder and electrically challenged. Two failures in the first 50 hours may have just been the luck of the draw. Vans replaced the first one, but my evaluation and conclusion took me another direction, to Plane Power for the third one. I will point out that several of my friends have been very satisfied with the Vans units. Plane Power's customer service is good and you can send a bad alternator back to them and they can check it out, fix it, talk you through a problem, etc. I can't do the turnaround quickly at an auto store like Kahunas example and I may run into serious delays someday. However, I was able to call them when I was wiring and fitting their simple installation and was able to talk to someone who knows and specializes in alternators. At Vans, I could get a replacement period. I didn't have the experience or knowledge of alternators to go to the auto store and work through this. And my wife who was a little unsure of this whole experimental thing was starting to get more nervous. So I guess someday I might be stranded for awhile. It's just one of those 100s of decisions and compromises that we all have to make. As I learn more and get more electrical experience I might be back here on the other side of this issue some day.

AutoZone Alternators

You get what you pay for. I've been in the auto parts business for 43 years and you don't want a krylon rebuilt from AZ. If you are going to use automotive find a better place to shop. It's you life you are playing with.

Jamie said:

Do these alternators come with the appropriate v-groove pully?

Click to expand...

The pulley is easily removable / swappable. Just steal it from your current alternator. I can help, or you can ask your favorite Pitts Model 12 flier...



By the way - I'm flying again, and owe you a ride.

N941WR said:

The ND that Van's sells seems to go Tango Uniform with this test. My Van's IR alternator was lent to a friend who burned his up, had it rebuilt, burned it up again, and when he tried mine it died before he even took off. It turns out he was pulling the breaker, which killed them.

Click to expand...

We had a brand new (~50 hours) Van's ND alternator fail on its way to Osh. It would suddenly start overcharging, 19-20 volts. The field was wired up the usual way, thru it's own toggle breaker, to the main bus, so that the alternator circuit could be switched on and off during startup and shutdown procedures.

We brought the alternator to an alternator shop and it seemed to test fine on the bench, but in the plane, it would spazz out and start overcharging on climb-out as soon as the engine started making a lot of heat (exhaust header of #1 cyl is pretty close to the back of the alternator). The alternator shop was able to take the innards out of a rebuilt automotive (Suzuki Sidekick/Samauri?) ND alternator and use the case halves and pulley off the Van's alternator and make a good one from the two since the Suzuki alternator's stock cases were different enough to make the pulley stick too far forward when trying to just use the Van's pulley on this alternator out of the box. They also discovered that the Van's original unit had a very large amount of fore/aft end play on the armature shaft due to something being wonky with the bearings and was enough slop to possibly be shorting one of the brushes into both collector rings at the same time as the shaft moved in and out.

The newly rebuilt ND alternator is now working fine, and we're keeping the field toggle breaker on all the time now, even during startup/shutdown, to avoid the suspected failure mode mentioned above. The breaker can always be switched off in an emergency if need be.