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  #11  
Old 05-01-2018, 05:15 AM
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agirard7a agirard7a is offline
 
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I think the point here is training and understanding the limits of your plane will hopefully help to recognize or prevent from getting into these dangerous situations. Isn’t that why we train. Wether it’s stall recovery, prevention or emergency procedures, we all benefit from the knowledge we gain through practice.

I for one have not trained for these stalls with an experienced instructor and would like to. If the pilots that died from this had trained, I would venture to say it would have been a different outcome as they would have known what not to do in the first place.
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Last edited by agirard7a : 05-01-2018 at 06:03 AM.
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  #12  
Old 05-01-2018, 06:36 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Am 79, flying since 18, and still alive....
How many times does one have to stall an airplane or induce an unusual attitude to know it can kill you?
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  #13  
Old 05-01-2018, 06:54 AM
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agirard7a agirard7a is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaziza View Post
And you were an airline pilot?? You never practiced stalls in the sim, so you wouldn't do it for real??
Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
Am 79, flying since 18, and still alive....
How many times does one have to stall an airplane or induce an unusual attitude to know it can kill you?
David. You’re an experienced pilot and know what not to do. We have all been trained in power on and power off stalls and recovery. How many of us have been trained in skidding, slipping, accelerated, stalls? Obviously the people that died from these were most likely not and did not know their enemy. Knowledge is power. We can all make bad decisions from lack of training.
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Last edited by agirard7a : 05-01-2018 at 07:13 AM.
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  #14  
Old 05-01-2018, 06:57 AM
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flightlogic flightlogic is offline
 
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David, I will have to respectfully disagree with you. I am coming up on eligibility for my 50 year FAA pin as well.... but I practice all the maneuvers and mistakes at a safe altitude when training. This knowledge has gotten me out of difficult spots more than once. I am glad you are alive as well. There is always room for divergent opinions in my world Cheers.
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  #15  
Old 05-01-2018, 07:17 AM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
Am 79, flying since 18, and still alive....
How many times does one have to stall an airplane or induce an unusual attitude to know it can kill you?
You are missing the point. Those pilots with a high level of awareness, knowledge, practical experience, comfort, and skill within the FULL range of the envelope are the ones who are diminishing their likelihood of ever needing to utilize this skill. Those who lack this experience and who display an exaggerated level of trepidation in this area are the ones more at risk. Plus, the OP is just talking about going to altitude and spinning the airplane as a demo. Not sure what you find so controversial about that. Are you an advocate of abstinence education and stall avoidance only training?

Last edited by luddite42 : 05-01-2018 at 07:20 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-01-2018, 07:24 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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All good stuff to think about, whatever works, works.

I just feel no one would attempt this in transport airplane because end would not be nice, why not fly same in small airplane?

I am concern about such loads on home built structure. How does one know the tail will not leave? To do it over and over for whatever reason doesnít work with me.

Flying safe is not difficult, know limits of your self, the airplane and donít do dumb things.

I had about 30 hours total time when stalled T-34 on top of loop during a progress check ride, will never forget it. Donít let yourself get into such situations is what I learned.
The outcome was a success nevertheless, for lack of knowing what to do, let go of stick and trusty T-34 righted itself, I grabbed stick and recovered, check airman said great recovery!! Little did he know.

My point is not to belittle practice, but to disagree with philosophy of seeing what you could get away with at pattern altitude.
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  #17  
Old 05-01-2018, 07:33 AM
NavyS3BNFO NavyS3BNFO is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaziza View Post
So-o-o-o-o-o-o, I had to go out and practice this, but at 7000 FT vs 300 FT. Mine is an RV 8. I first did them clean at about 71 KTS, and then dirty at about 64 KTS. I put in about a 25 degree bank angle and kicked tons of rudder. I'm happy to report that at least with "my" 8, both dirty and clean, I got a whole lot of stall buffeting with no tendency to roll upside down.

SO---I'm glad for that guy's video, and checked my plane out for itself. BUT---ya'll who read this---do go out and practice in your own planes, just to be sure. I got this demonstrated to me, when I was learning how to fly in a T-34. You were on your back so fast, it wasn't even funny.

Blue side up on finals.
I too learned these in the T-34. The instructors weren't too crazy about demoing them but it taught me a valuable lesson as a student. There is a tendency for students to be afraid to roll in enough bank when turning final and instead try to use rudder to make the turn to final. This can lead to a cross controlled stall low and slow.

Being able to recognize and resist the temptation to use rudder instead of bank to line up on final and stay coordinated kept many a student pilot alive. Also knowing what the consequences were is pretty sobering.

Every plane is different but the T-34 flipped on its back just like the video. It's interesting that the -8 doesn't have the same tendency.
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Last edited by NavyS3BNFO : 05-01-2018 at 09:10 AM.
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  #18  
Old 05-01-2018, 07:47 AM
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donaziza donaziza is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyS3BNFO View Post
I too learned these in the T-34. The instructors weren't too crazy about demoing them but it taught me a valuable lesson as a student. There is a tendency for students to be afraid to roll in enough bank when turning final and instead try to use rudder to make the turn to final. This can lead to a cross controlled stall low and slow.

Being able to recognize and resist the temptation to use rudder instead of bank to line up on final kept many a student pilot alive. Also knowing what the consequences were is pretty sobering.

Every plane is different but the T-34 flipped on its back just like the video. It's interesting that the -8 doesn't have the same tendency.

It might be just "my" 8. Other 8's could be different. I hope I got that across in the original post when I said "my" 8. Since these airplanes aren't standard all off the same jig, everyone has to check "their own" airplanes.

(My T 34 was Navy. The instructors just did it at altitude and had us do one also---just to show us what "not" to do in the landing pattern.)
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  #19  
Old 05-01-2018, 08:21 AM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
I am concern about such loads on home built structure. How does one know the tail will not leave? To do it over and over for whatever reason doesn’t work with me.
Surely you are not suggesting the RV structure, designed for aerobatics, has questionable ability to be repeatedly subjected to spins. Is your only aerobatic/spin/upset experience the limited exposure you received way back in the military?
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  #20  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:09 AM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyS3BNFO View Post
There is a tendency for students to be afraid to roll in enough bank when turning final and instead try to use rudder to make the turn to final. This can lead to a cross controlled stall low and slow.
This statement is the key to this discussion. Whether an inexperienced student, or an experienced pilot faced with an engine-out situation and not quite enough altitude to make the emergency landing field, we are humans who make mistakes. I believe the intention of the OP was to raise awareness of the issue that causes many pilots to die in smoking holes not far from the end of the runway.

The OP and others have learned two things by training for this maneouver. How to induce an unusual attitude, and how to recover from it.

Let's agree that flight training is good. More flight training is better. More flight training in our own aircraft so we can understand its peculiar handling characteristics is the best way to prepare ourselves so we know enough to avoid those most dangerous situations. This prevents us from ever having to use our hard-learned unusual attitude recovery skills.
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