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I think I need another demo ride...

aviator9587

I'm New Here
I just sold my beloved V tail Bonanza a few days before Oshkosh, I ended up borrowing a friends F33A Bonanza to fly up the the show and camp for a few days. My short list for a next airplane is save up for a used SR22 (I have 600hrs in type) or this winter start a RV10. I grew up in my dads maintenance shop and feel this is something I can tackle. I quickly signed up for a demo ride when I got to Oshkosh. We sat in the airplane and it was a great fit. For the next few days I was going to numerous vendors, talking with builders, and doing research. The more I looked at it the more I got excited. My fianc? had some concerns and was pro SR22. We went to a little workshop, she deburred, dimpled, and squeezed her first rivet. She became very interested after that because she looked at it as something we can do together. Her biggest concern is the interior, Vans is not huge on nice interiors. I assured her we can make it as nice as a SR22. We also want a parachute, I lost my dad in a plane crash and I want more options.

So the demo ride came...
We arrived 20 minutes early and the appointment before mine was a no show. So we strapped in and we were ready to go. They start the engine and it ran very rough. I noticed the mixture was full forward and asked why it ran so rough. (Ive never flown in a RV10 or 6 cylinder lycoming). He leaned it a little bit, not near what i do in the Bonanza. On the mag check of course it ran worse because of the fouling plugs. He asked if we felt comfortable taking off. We went ahead and took off. On take off at 2700RPM it was deafening loud, I was looking to see if the headsets were on. As soon as we broke ground he pulls it to 24' 2400RPM, goes against every engine management program I have ever learned from. I asked if we can do a full power climb and he said this is how they climb. The fuel pressure was in the bottom of the yellow, I asked if that was normal and he said it was in the climb, fuel pump was off. We leveled out and the demo pilot was adamant about showing me slow flight. I was more interested in seeing its cruise performance. I asked if we could climb to altitude and do some cruise configurations and he declined due to time constraints, I looked at my watch and it was 9:55. We had been in the air 10 minutes. So about 5 minutes later he said we need to turn back. He takes the controls and begins jockeying the throttle to come in, from idle to 20 inches. Every time he goes to idle the engine begins to back fire and run rough. Im a corporate pilot and every airplane I fly has an approach power setting, Bonanza 15-17 inches, PC12 9-11PSI, Helicopter I fly, 20% Torque. This gentleman did not know that power setting. When we landed there was considerable shimmying in the landing gear, he says thats normal and we taxied in. We got out and began walking off and my fianc?, who is a non pilot but flies with me all the time, was not comfortable at all after with the RV10. We were walking away from the airplane at 10:15.

So my question is, is there someone that can give me a real demo ride, max performance climbs, LOP cruises, ROP cruises, in an airplane that is comfortable and quiet? We live about 45 minutes outside of New Orleans and are willing to travel for this experience. Help me seal the deal!!!! :D
 
Too bad

While I can't offer a demo ride, it's very disappointing to hear that Vans treated you that way. Sounds like they need to revisit their demo ride experience and staff the rides with someone who knows how to fly right and treat a prospective customer correctly. Makes you wonder...
 
I'm not near (2J3) you but you're more than welcome to fly left seat in my -10...do all the cruise you want and full power climbs..cruise-climb is around 145 MPH and 1400+ FPM...this is a dream machine that I've been flying for six years now.

You'll never regret the -10...it's more loved every time I strap her on.

Best,
 
I think you need to somehow hook up with Brian and Brandi Unrein. Sounds like what you want to do is similar to their experience and I just have a feeling that your fiance might hit it off with Brandi. Just a feeling
 
There would have been several RV-10 owners willing to give you a ride a OSH. Mine was there in HBC until yesterday. There are many well finished interiors thanks to companies like Aerosport Products. Geoff's 10 was in HBP until this morning.

With the side panels and a little insulation, the RV-10 can be quite a nice and quiet ride.

There was a RV-10 located just outside of Baton Rouge. It was put up for sale a couple months ago. I don't know the current state of the sale. If interested, drop me an email and I can provide the contact information.
 
We sat in Geoffs RV10 and talked to him for about a half hour. We really like his airplane. She kept saying, they would sell more kits if their demo looked like this....
 
vans

You should get in touch with a big shot at vans and give them your impressions of the demo pilot. I doubt they want a jerk representing the company.
 
Atlanta

I'm in LZU if you make it up this way will give you a ride anytime. Gave 2 rides to people at Osh on Tuesday. One building the wings that had never had a ride and the other thinking about building. Both were surprised how quiet it was.

I did put sound insulation in the floor and have flight line interiors seats and carpet, and aerosport side panels.
 
I just sold my beloved V tail Bonanza a few days before Oshkosh, I ended up borrowing a friends F33A Bonanza to fly up the the show and camp for a few days. My short list for a next airplane is save up for a used SR22 (I have 600hrs in type) or this winter start a RV10. I grew up in my dads maintenance shop and feel this is something I can tackle. I quickly signed up for a demo ride when I got to Oshkosh. We sat in the airplane and it was a great fit. For the next few days I was going to numerous vendors, talking with builders, and doing research. The more I looked at it the more I got excited. My fianc? had some concerns and was pro SR22. We went to a little workshop, she deburred, dimpled, and squeezed her first rivet. She became very interested after that because she looked at it as something we can do together. Her biggest concern is the interior, Vans is not huge on nice interiors. I assured her we can make it as nice as a SR22. We also want a parachute, I lost my dad in a plane crash and I want more options.

So the demo ride came...
We arrived 20 minutes early and the appointment before mine was a no show. So we strapped in and we were ready to go. They start the engine and it ran very rough. I noticed the mixture was full forward and asked why it ran so rough. (Ive never flown in a RV10 or 6 cylinder lycoming). He leaned it a little bit, not near what i do in the Bonanza. On the mag check of course it ran worse because of the fouling plugs. He asked if we felt comfortable taking off. We went ahead and took off. On take off at 2700RPM it was deafening loud, I was looking to see if the headsets were on. As soon as we broke ground he pulls it to 24' 2400RPM, goes against every engine management program I have ever learned from. I asked if we can do a full power climb and he said this is how they climb. The fuel pressure was in the bottom of the yellow, I asked if that was normal and he said it was in the climb, fuel pump was off. We leveled out and the demo pilot was adamant about showing me slow flight. I was more interested in seeing its cruise performance. I asked if we could climb to altitude and do some cruise configurations and he declined due to time constraints, I looked at my watch and it was 9:55. We had been in the air 10 minutes. So about 5 minutes later he said we need to turn back. He takes the controls and begins jockeying the throttle to come in, from idle to 20 inches. Every time he goes to idle the engine begins to back fire and run rough. Im a corporate pilot and every airplane I fly has an approach power setting, Bonanza 15-17 inches, PC12 9-11PSI, Helicopter I fly, 20% Torque. This gentleman did not know that power setting. When we landed there was considerable shimmying in the landing gear, he says thats normal and we taxied in. We got out and began walking off and my fianc?, who is a non pilot but flies with me all the time, was not comfortable at all after with the RV10. We were walking away from the airplane at 10:15.

So my question is, is there someone that can give me a real demo ride, max performance climbs, LOP cruises, ROP cruises, in an airplane that is comfortable and quiet? We live about 45 minutes outside of New Orleans and are willing to travel for this experience. Help me seal the deal!!!! :D
I really wish I were close enough to give you a ride. I just returned from Osh and have it parked in my home hangar in Durham NC.

I would be particularly interested in getting your impressions as a former Bo' owner and SR22 flyer. I've never flown either but consider them the best of class based on what I've heard from whom over the years. (I think Mooneys are great too)

I love my '10 and never operate it as you saw it operated. Yesterday I took off from Oshkosh and climbed it up to 11,500 with throttle and prop full forward. I leaned on the way up. At cruise I bring the prop back to MP -1 (say 23" and 2200) which is nice and quiet. When I got it back down to 11,000 I ran home at about 155 TAS and 9.6gph. Normally I like 8k to 10K at 155 to 160 knots and 10.5 to 11.6, always LOP. However, I've done little ROP work so can't talk to it.

My interior is from Flightline and quite nice to my eye. Not up to Geoff's but probably a bit lighter and a lot nicer than the basic Van's approach.

If you have an excuse to be in or around NC in the near future, drop me a line and we'll do it. My building log is here http://www.mykitlog.com/MauleDriver/
 
I'm at X35 in northern FL. You're welcome to come by for a demo if you can make it to my neck of the woods.
 
Shawn
I would be glad to spend a day with you flying my 10. I am not as close as
many other 10's but you will not be disappointed. My 10 is very quite but good headsets are very important in the 10.
I remembered you and your fiance`. I enjoyed talking to you. If I knew you had never been in a 10 I could have taken you up at Oshkosh. Contact me if you are interested.


Geoff
 
Shawn,
I too would be happy to give you a ride and talk about the plane. I am up in St. Louis. If you feel like coming up, send me a PM. In the meantime, take a look at my kit log for a preview of what you may want to do http://www.mykitlog.com/users/displ...ers&project=2107&category=0&log=156852&row=11 , and how you can control the outcome of the appearance. I too had a bad experience with the Vans demo ride. Combine a pair of cheap $20 headsets, a lack of any semblance of an interior or any insulation whatsoever, and there you have it, a bad sales pitch. If it wasn't for a subsequent ride with Scott Schmidt I would have walked away at that point.
Bill
 
I am at KGDW in Gladwin MI if you need a ride and are in the area. Just completed a 3 day, 1000 mile plus journey in my -10 loaded up to the gills today. I have the complete interior package from Flightline Interiors. It is very quiet and I use good headsets. The -10 is a very impressive aircraft properly equipped. I averaged 168-171 KIAS & 11.5 gph @10,000' msl.
 
Shawn,

With your experience you know Beech builds rock solid quality airplanes. The RV-10 is very satisfying to the guys who have one, but not everyone has the opportunity to compare it to a Bonanza as you have.

The bad demo ride is not going to convince you to order the 10 and a good ride might not either. They are not in the same league. What does a new Bonanza cost compared to a well equipped RV-10, that's where they part company.

Don't get me wrong, I am a "rock solid" RV fan and love flying them, but I've been to the Beech King Air school and know they are very fine airplanes. Vans airplanes are more performance orientated - total performance. The Bonanza is more total comfort with good performance.

The mission is not the same.
 
Shawn,

With your experience you know Beech builds rock solid quality airplanes. The RV-10 is very satisfying to the guys who have one, but not everyone has the opportunity to compare it to a Bonanza as you have.

The bad demo ride is not going to convince you to order the 10 and a good ride might not either. They are not in the same league. What does a new Bonanza cost compared to a well equipped RV-10, that's where they part company.

Don't get me wrong, I am a "rock solid" RV fan and love flying them, but I've been to the Beech King Air school and know they are very fine airplanes. Vans airplanes are more performance orientated - total performance. The Bonanza is more total comfort with good performance.

The mission is not the same.

David,

I have to disagree with your assessment. Many RV-10 builders mission is to build a comfortable cross country cruiser. While the plans don't take into account comfort, it is easily obtainable. Taking a look at many of the RV-10s in HBC and HBP will make it quickly apparent on how luxurious a RV-10 can be finished. Fortunately, the OP was able to sit in on of the nicer ones (Geoff Combs of Aerosport Products). There were at least a dozen more on the field of a similar caliber of interior. The best part is that the RV-10 is probably about half the cost of a new Bonanza or Cirrus.

Bob
 
The best part is that the RV-10 is probably about half the cost of a new Bonanza or Cirrus.

Bob

Which may explain why Van does not waste money on a fancy demo airplane. Their motto is keep the cost down and that sells more airplanes than anything else.

The G36 Bonanza starts at $691,360 according to one source on the internet. That price may well include a check out at the factory school.
 
We built our IFR equipped 10 with a painted interior. Yes, without ANR's, it is very noisy. We would have liked the nice interior, but an IFR panel, dual batteries/ebus, ease of maintenance and useful load were much more important to us since we fly as a family everywhere and near gross weight with full fuel/baggage. I had a great demo ride with Van's at SnF 2009. Sorry for your bad experience.
 
So my fianc? and I were able to take another demo ride yesterday. We flew a friends Bonanza up to Atlanta to meet Brian and Brandi Unrein. Brians airplane is a fantastic example of what an RV10 can be. He allowed me to take off, fly the airplane and land the airplane. These things are pretty quick. As a previous Bonanza owner, I will say a stock 260hp RV10 will take a 285hp STRAIGHT TAIL Bonanza. But doing 173TAS on just over 14 and 170TAS on 11.5 is fantastic. As with anything there are advantages and drawbacks. The RV10 has the advantage of building a brand new airplane at the price of a used. Doing your own maintenance and upgrading avionics inexpensively is huge. A big drawback is the baggage compartment is quite a bit smaller than the Bonanza. So tomorrow I will meet with a contractor to see just what it will take to build an addition on to our house to build this thing. But I think I'm going to do it, it will have to wait until after we get married in November, after that I think its game on!!!
sXhwzqQl.jpg


P.S. the baby is not ours, that is Lucy, Brian and Brandis newborn..
 
I owned a turbo saratoga until recently. With a move from the West Coast to the East Coast and the down sizing of the family, the RV 10 was the hands down replacement for us. Get in one where there was pride of ownership by the builder and you will be sold on one.
 
I'm sad to hear that your experience with a Van's rep was as sour as mine was last year. I keep coming back to the RV-7 for a number of reasons but that experience that I chronicled here was something that keeps playing back as I get closer to pulling the trigger. I don't know if it was my age, or questions (I'm new to the experimental world and have learned a lot since then) but I feel like they (as well as many in aviation) need to do something about their approach and do more to welcome new people rather than pushing them away.

Good luck, and congrats on your impending marriage! My wife and I will be celebrating a year in a few weeks and after a couple rides in an archer she's starting to warm up to this airplane idea.
 
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I'll vouch for bill's rv10

I was one of the people Bill was kind enough to for a ride at osh and I have to say I found it very comfortable and the sound level quiet good (wearing A20's) thanks again Bill

James "Mac" McElvaney
 
I'll also vouch for Bill :)

I'm in LZU if you make it up this way will give you a ride anytime. Gave 2 rides to people at Osh on Tuesday. One building the wings that had never had a ride and the other thinking about building. Both were surprised how quiet it was.

I did put sound insulation in the floor and have flight line interiors seats and carpet, and aerosport side panels.

Sarah and I were the other couple that Bill was generous enough to give a ride to. It was indeed considerably quieter than we had imagined it would be, even when removing the A20's to listen, and the demonstration we got with him was 10x the demo we got from the Van's demonstrator the next morning (thanks again Bill!). What an airplane! Incredibly easy and fun to fly, not twitchy at all, but responsive and very light control pressures. Very comfortable with TONS of room, both up front and I'd say even more in back! (I'm 6'3" and 250lb)

That being said, we didn't have quite the same negative impression of the Van's flight, although a few of your points align with our experience as well (backfiring, shimmy on rollout once the nose comes down) neither of which happened with Bill's plane. Both Sarah and I actually got to take turns flying the Van's plane, and we each had a different staff member pilot the flight. Yes, we didn't have time to do much other than a few turns and a stall or two over the lake before heading back, but it was still a fun experience for us and we at least were able to get a feel for what it flies like. We were still pretty impressed with the noise level, given that N410RV isn't really all that well insulated or spruced up like most of the builders' 10's that we've <strike>drooled on</strike> looked at. ;) I guess I'm speaking up here to give advice to anyone who might want to get a demonstration ride from Van's... you'll probably still get a good impression of the plane, but finding a willing private builder who has a much nicer and better equipped one is the way to go!

The only thing I noticed on both planes, which has been well documented, is that the elevator trim is indeed quite snappy, even with the voltage reducer in place. If you're used to flying something like a Cherokee (like me) with electric trim and holding the switch for any period of time to notice a change, this is not like that at all. I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily, just something to get used to, and I guess be aware of where the cutoff is in case a relay or button gets stuck.

I'm glad you finally got a chance to take a "real" ride, and from the sounds of it you're pretty well sold! It's nice to be part of a community with so many generous, encouraging, and helpful folks, isn't it? It's part of why we love flying in general so much, and we're just now finding out that the builder's community exhibits even more of that. We can't wait to do the same for others once we get our bird up into the sky :D

10463612_10102343350678399_1037471688017489627_o.jpg
 
SHawn,

It's great to hear that you got a good demo ride and liek the airplane (post #19) - and that you want to join the family of RV builders! I would caution you about one thing though - before you pull the trigger on the kit, realize tat you are going to spend a couple of years and a couple thousand hours of building the plane - then years enjoying it. ANd all that time, you will be intertwined with Vans Aircraft - there is simply no choice. For your own peace of mind, I'd suggest further contacts with the company to talk about your bad experience and make sure that you can have a good relationship - or you could end up being unhappy a lot of the time with a previous bad taste in your mind.

When you commit to an airplane kit, you are marrying the company. It can be a fun, wonderful relationship, or an ugly one - figure out which it is going to be in advance!

Paul
 
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