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instrument check ride has to be in certificated?

brian

Well Known Member
I have been thinking of equipping my plane for IFR and getting the instrument training. However, as part of trying to find out just what equipment I'd need for the plane, I read the instrument PTS on the FAA web site. Most surprising to me was the fact that it said the checkride has to be in a certificated plane.

Really? I had no idea about that. I'm sure there are plenty of instrument-rated pilots of RVs and other experimentals out there. Can any of you tell me how is that done? Do people go out and rent a Cessna for the checkride? Or do such pilots rent a Cessna for the entire training?

While I'm sure the principles of instrument flying would be the same between a glass panel RV and a rental Cessna, it seems to me that the checkride would be an extra challenge in a relatively unfamiliar plane, with perhaps entirely different instruments.. It also seems to me to be rather pointless to prove proficiency in one plane that may have entirely different instrumentation than the one the pilot would be using for every flight after the checkride. Is that really how it works for pilots who are currently VFR and their plane is an experimental?

Can pilots who've gotten instrument training & certification while owning an RV or other experimental shed some light on how all this actually works?
 
Certificated

I have been thinking of equipping my plane for IFR and getting the instrument training. However, as part of trying to find out just what equipment I'd need for the plane, I read the instrument PTS on the FAA web site. Most surprising to me was the fact that it said the checkride has to be in a certificated plane.

Really? I had no idea about that. I'm sure there are plenty of instrument-rated pilots of RVs and other experimentals out there. Can any of you tell me how is that done? Do people go out and rent a Cessna for the checkride? Or do such pilots rent a Cessna for the entire training?

While I'm sure the principles of instrument flying would be the same between a glass panel RV and a rental Cessna, it seems to me that the checkride would be an extra challenge in a relatively unfamiliar plane, with perhaps entirely different instruments.. It also seems to me to be rather pointless to prove proficiency in one plane that may have entirely different instrumentation than the one the pilot would be using for every flight after the checkride. Is that really how it works for pilots who are currently VFR and their plane is an experimental?

Can pilots who've gotten instrument training & certification while owning an RV or other experimental shed some light on how all this actually works?

I think in the context you?re referring to:

The instrument rating applicant is required by 14 CFR part 61 toprovide an airworthy, certificated aircraft for use during the practical test.​

this simply means you have to provide an aircraft with a valid airworthiness certificate, which would include EAB aircraft. Note that I haven?t gone to read part 61 itself...

Skylor
 
Experimentals are included in that broad category.

We generally have a special airworthiness certificate, usually Experimental/Amateur Built. If it said a Standard Airworthiness Certificate, as some FAR's do, then we would not be able to use an experimental.
 
Checkride

I did all my IFR training and checkride in my RV-7A. I had an instructor willing to teach me in my plane and an FAA examiner that was willing to do the checkride in my plane also.
 
Our airplanes are "certificated", they are certificated in the Experimental - Amateur Built category but they are certified.
 
Since I have my shiny, new 2019 FAR/AIM handy, I looked up part 61.45. It says the applicant must furnish an aircraft which:
(ii)Has a standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate in the limited, primary, or light sport category.
So the experimental category is not included, BUT, it goes on to say:
(2)At the discretion of the examiner who administers the practical test, the applicant may furnish--
(i)An aircraft that has an airworthiness certificate other than a standard airworthiness certificate in the limited, primary, or light-sport category, but that otherwise meets the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section.
So it's up to the examiner.
 
I did all of my instrument training in my RV-7. Contacted the local DPE to arrange a checkride and he told me that he had just completed a checkride in an RV-7A. He did my checkride in my RV-7.
 
I also took all instrument training and the checkride in my RV9A. It's just a matter of finding an experimental-friendly examiner. Some are very willing, even excited, to fly in an RV.
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I'm glad to hear my interpretation was wrong. To me, "certificated" has always been the term I used to refer to a factory plane.
 
141 school

Started instrument training in a 141 school a couple years ago. Got about 75% finished and then took a break to finish my RV10 build. Wondering if anyone knows of a regulation against instrument training being done in an experimental under part 141?
 
+1 on it can be done in an RV.

I asked the DPE that did my PPL if he would do an IFR ride in an RV. He said, "It depends on the RV."

I showed him mine. (we're on the same field)

He said, "Call me when you're ready to go."
 
Started instrument training in a 141 school a couple years ago. Got about 75% finished and then took a break to finish my RV10 build. Wondering if anyone knows of a regulation against instrument training being done in an experimental under part 141?

I don?t know about ?regulations?. But you need to talk with the school; there may be some practical difficulties, e.g.:
They may have no cfii?s familiar with your RV.
They may have a designated examiner on-staff who declines (as is his right) to fly in an RV.
 
When I was last involved in 141 stuff, the program was very rigid, including defining what A/C type was to be used for the program. You couldn't freely substitute a different type and still be in compliance with the approved lesson plan.


Now, that said, I also took classes from a 141-approved school (U. of Okla.) that I used to complete a rating under Part 61 (I got Commercial and CFII that way--I had substantial experience outside of the program that made it easier to skip large segments of the 141 program and just do it based on total time). You could potentially do the same, but you'd have to meet all of the Part 61 requirements, which may involve more total flight hours than the 141 program (one of the advantages of 141).
 
..... You could potentially do the same, but you'd have to meet all of the Part 61 requirements .... .

This is what I'll be doing. I called the local FSDO this morning to ask about it. A special airworthiness certificate on a light sport aircraft can be done under 141 but not an RV10. .... Not a big issue. I was planning to finish under part 61 anyway. This was more a question to satisfy curiosity.
 
I just went through this...

With my RV-7A. I?m planning on finishing my instrument rating so I wanted to make sure I was legal to receive training in my airplane but also to take the practical exam. I contacted a local DPE who indicated he would be willing to give my exam in my airplane. I then contacted the Tampa FSDO about this. He pointed me to my special airworthiness certification where it indicates that if it is equipped with appropriate instruments to allow instrument flight then it?s legal. It doesn?t need any specific inspections or certification by the FAA. If it complies with 14 CFR 91.205(d), it?s legal.
 
Brian, I thought that you were selling your plane?

Didn't I see an ad for it recently?

BTW... I did my Instrument Checkride in my -7 also. I guess that would be a hashtag me too! hahaha

:D CJ
 
Hi John,
Yes, I was/am. But I got no takers, even at what seems like a pretty fair price. I just renewed the ad. There are several others for sale here, too, and none seem to be moving or generating any interest. Maybe it's a bad time? I don't know.

My plan is to sell it if I can and then sell the Challenger and the hangar. If I don't sell it, then I need to equip it for IFR and go for the license. Going for the IFR license ticket has been an on-again, off-again thing for several years, ever since we got stuck in Indiana and West Virginia for several days trying to go to the 2011 Copperstate fly-in.

The reason I'm wanting to sell is because I never fly it. I keep telling myself I WILL fly it more, but then I don't. One reason we don't take any trips in it is because we either have to cancel most trips at the last minute due to weather, or we get out OK and inevitably get stuck somewhere. We just got back from a very harrowing week-long effort trying to get home from Triple Tree (which was just WONDERFUL!) and not get stuck in Hurricane Florence. My wife is leaning more toward wanting the other type of RV, instead of this one and getting stuck everywhere.

The plan is to base the panel & IFR readiness on a Garmin GTN 650. I'm still working on finding out just what, if anything, I need besides the GTN650.

So it's a flexible plan, and I'm still working on it ;-)
 
Since I have my shiny, new 2019 FAR/AIM handy, I looked up part 61.45. It says the applicant must furnish an aircraft which
...special../QUOTE]

Wait! It clearly says "special " certificate, which IS experimental, so it clearly allows it. Right,???
 
After I was flying my RV-10, I needed an IPC. I had a problem finding a CFII that was willing to fly in an experimental. Then those that were willing, I had to find one that was comfortable will glass panels in IMC. Then I had to find somebody that was will to learn my AFS panel.

It took me awhile, but I did find a great instructor. He was a local corporate pilot that built an experimental. I was able to locate him through the local IMC chapter.

While he wasn't familiar with AFS, he had no issues learning the buttons. The aircraft that he flies in his day job had different vendor's glass panels. I liked his perspective on training. It was more here is want we want to do, the glass panel is going to do this, so now what's the AFS buttonology. After flying for a couple years, I learned a lot during that IPC.
 
After I was flying my RV-10, I needed an IPC. I had a problem finding a CFII that was willing to fly in an experimental. Then those that were willing, I had to find one that was comfortable will glass panels in IMC. Then I had to find somebody that was will to learn my AFS panel.

Why would they have to fly imc? Ipc and check rides are supposed to be in vmc by the regs. Well, I guess specifically the ipc doesn?t have to be vmc by the regs but it doesn?t have to be imc. Check ride has to be vmc by the regs due to the fact that the testee is pic and before passing he/she wouldn?t be able to be pic in imc.

As for myself with a thorp I trained for a week in a Cessna prior to my check ride and took my check ride in a 172. My thorp is not ifr certified so I couldn?t do my ride in it despite the check ride being in vmc.
 
Why would they have to fly imc? Ipc and check rides are supposed to be in vmc by the regs. Well, I guess specifically the ipc doesn?t have to be vmc by the regs but it doesn?t have to be imc. Check ride has to be vmc by the regs due to the fact that the testee is pic and before passing he/she wouldn?t be able to be pic in imc.

As for myself with a thorp I trained for a week in a Cessna prior to my check ride and took my check ride in a 172. My thorp is not ifr certified so I couldn?t do my ride in it despite the check ride being in vmc.

Going through this right now with my DPE, trying to get my IFR but there has been very low weather lately. He told me the FAA encourages the DPE's to not be PIC but it's ultimately the DPE's choice. Mine told me he was OK with minor IMC (puffies, thin layers) etc but not low overcast on an approach - so I'm now on my second reschedule for better weather.

This is in my glass-panel 9A, by the way.
 
Just passed my IFR Check-ride in my 10

My RV 10..has 3 3GX, G750, 307 Autopilot etc...I did all my training and check ride in it w/o any issue. In fact, 2 CFIIs said they never want to do any more training in a steam gauge plan again after flying w me. I live in Seattle area..and had 9hrs of actual of my 42 hrs of training. "the situational awareness is amazing in your plane..' both CFII said.
When you go to do your IACRA, and look for the model/make of your plane...look under KIT build for what plan you have been flying. Took me a bit to figure this out...as Van's RV isn't listed on the IACRA website.

IR is awesome, so glad its done, but learned a ton!
 
My RV 10..has 3 3GX, G750, 307 Autopilot etc...I did all my training and check ride in it w/o any issue. In fact, 2 CFIIs said they never want to do any more training in a steam gauge plan again after flying w me. I live in Seattle area..and had 9hrs of actual of my 42 hrs of training. "the situational awareness is amazing in your plane..' both CFII said.
When you go to do your IACRA, and look for the model/make of your plane...look under KIT build for what plan you have been flying. Took me a bit to figure this out...as Van's RV isn't listed on the IACRA website.

IR is awesome, so glad its done, but learned a ton!

Either KIT or HOME will show our experimental class on IACRA.
 
Why would they have to fly imc? Ipc and check rides are supposed to be in vmc by the regs. Well, I guess specifically the ipc doesn?t have to be vmc by the regs but it doesn?t have to be imc. Check ride has to be vmc by the regs due to the fact that the testee is pic and before passing he/she wouldn?t be able to be pic in imc.

As for myself with a thorp I trained for a week in a Cessna prior to my check ride and took my check ride in a 172. My thorp is not ifr certified so I couldn?t do my ride in it despite the check ride being in vmc.


Because I wanted some IMC experience with a CFII.
 
A related IPC comment/question. Forgive me if this is too much drift.

My 9A has a Garmin 625 which means RNAV approaches only. The IPC requires three different approaches. My sense is that a choice of LPV, LP+V, VNAV, LNAV should work.
 
A related IPC comment/question. Forgive me if this is too much drift.

My 9A has a Garmin 625 which means RNAV approaches only. The IPC requires three different approaches. My sense is that a choice of LPV, LP+V, VNAV, LNAV should work.

The appendix of the ACS (nee PTS) says the two non-precision approaches must use different types of nav aides.
The same ACS encourages emergency procedures, e.g., failed equipment. So for gps-only aircraft I usually ‘fail’ the gps, hand the pilot a portable vor radio, and have him shoot a VOR approach. IMHO meets the spirit, if not the letter, of the regs.
Which of course begs the question: If you’re flying in IMC and your 625 fails, what are your plans?
 
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Backup

I think the same question applies if a Garmin 650 or 430 fails, you?ve lost instrument approach capability. In this particular 9A at least, there is a Dynon Touch with independent GPS (not legal approach) to navigate with, there?s a Dynon Comm and Garmin SL40 to communicate with, a Dynon EFIS and Garmin G-5 to help keep the oily side down.
Still no instrument approach but some decent options especially if there?s ?spare? fuel.
 
Very good question Bob, especially with the one-screen-wonder out there. It?s amazing how bright everything gets when that one high-dollar screen goes blank for no reason at all when in the clouds. If you survive, then you attempt to vent your frustration on the mfg and you get a reply that we should have rebooted, or it was a ?glitch?, or it?s a known problem that will be addressed in next software update in two months. Nevertheless, a lot of thought on alternate options is very good advice especially when IFR. Backup steam gauges is old technology but maybe a simple backup plan for the near term.

The appendix of the ACS (nee PTS) says the two non-precision approaches must use different types of nav aides.
The same ACS encourages emergency procedures, e.g., failed equipment. So for gps-only aircraft I usually ?fail? the gps, hand the pilot a portable vor radio, and have him shoot a VOR approach. IMHO meets the spirit, if not the letter, of the regs.
Which of course begs the question: If you?re flying in IMC and your 625 fails, what are your plans?
 
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