Van's Air Force
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Insurance Input
- Thread starter cardinal285
- Start date
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
I think I might find out what age does to rates in a day or so from Shanna. It is all in the perspective, I am proud to say I have been flying 46 years this week without ever an accident or claim. I bet Gallagher will tell that story differently by saying "you are almost 80 years old and that is too old to get a decent rate"
Actually I doubt you will hear that. While age discrimination certainly exists, most companies are careful not to say anything that might confirm it.
Shanna Linton
Member
It really depends on the insurance company. Each insurance company has their own set of parameters on how they determine eligibility of quotes.
At renewal of my files I always check the market for the highest liability limit available.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
They don't have to say it, just charge for it. Just got my quote from Shanna and with 46 years of accident/claim free flying, my rate is about exactly THREE TIMES the premium my friends with identical planes and even less experience pay! I can understand, and sure don't want THEM to pay higher rates because of my age. Old Republic, Global Aerospace, and AIG refuse to even sell me a policy!
I have not seen that in my friends, that us old guys are so accident prone, in general it seems the old guys actually fly less and have less exposure, and fall in the old saying about old safer pilots.. I guess some old geezers someplace are out there bending up airplanes at a pretty fast rate. I applied to AVEMCO since they were the only one left!
I have not seen that in my friends, that us old guys are so accident prone, in general it seems the old guys actually fly less and have less exposure, and fall in the old saying about old safer pilots.. I guess some old geezers someplace are out there bending up airplanes at a pretty fast rate. I applied to AVEMCO since they were the only one left!
Don, before I jump to a conclusion, may I ask a question? Are you requesting insurance on a just-finished kit, for a specific model (e.g. -12) in which you have little time-in-type? If the answer is yes, then that is the issue. For my first year of flying the -10, I had few options, and my premiums were about 3x what they are now. Insurers will tell you that those first 50 hours have a statistically higher risk of a loss. Low time in type has a statistically higher risk too.
Edit. I see in your by-line that you have an automotive engine? Insurers don't like that either.
Edit. I see in your by-line that you have an automotive engine? Insurers don't like that either.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Yep, just finished kit, still need transition training and a BFR before I fly, Viking aircraft engine, which is essentially an auto conversion.
I was comparing my rate to my friends, who also have the same configuration of engine and plane and experience. Only difference is that I am double or more their age and have more flying experience!
I was going to ask Shanna if in her experience, after I have several years flying it with no claims, if they would go up cause I am even older, or down because of experience. That is an unknown.
To be truthful, it is rather depressing, makes me consider if I am that accident prone, maybe I should just sell it and hang up my license. I flew my own plane for many years with NO insurance, and maybe that is a best choice as well.
I was comparing my rate to my friends, who also have the same configuration of engine and plane and experience. Only difference is that I am double or more their age and have more flying experience!
I was going to ask Shanna if in her experience, after I have several years flying it with no claims, if they would go up cause I am even older, or down because of experience. That is an unknown.
To be truthful, it is rather depressing, makes me consider if I am that accident prone, maybe I should just sell it and hang up my license. I flew my own plane for many years with NO insurance, and maybe that is a best choice as well.
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strahler13
Well Known Member
I have been using Gallagher, nee Nation Air, for the 13 years or so that I've had my RV. From my experience, any inquiry has been answered within 24 hours, I have received a listing of competing quotes to choose from upon renewal and my rates have been lower than previous years with the same hull value. Excellent service in my opinion.
For crying out loud...they graciously host the Wednesday night party at OSH and allow Dan's shindig there too. They have earned my business.
For crying out loud...they graciously host the Wednesday night party at OSH and allow Dan's shindig there too. They have earned my business.
Don, the cards are stacked against you. You need a Flight Review (n?e BFR)? That suggests that you have zero PIC time in the last week? Month? 3 months? Insurance companies do not like that. You say your friends have the same experience as you, but that cannot be true. You have zero time in type, they do not. That is a big deal for the insurance companies. After 1 year/100 hours in type you can expect a much better quote.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
You might be partially correct, but my friends had zero time in type and no BFR either, just were a LOT younger. I am not sure what "time in type" actually means, I put zero for PIC in an RV12, however I have hundreds of hours in a Cherokee, same "type" of single engine tri gear land plane, maybe I was wrong there. I have been at the controls of three other RV12s, but not logged.
I just might see how this works. In a couple of weeks, and before I fly mine, I will have a BFR and probably over 5 hours instruction in an RV12. Wonder how much my rates would go down then? (insurance quote only required 1 hour with instructor in an RV12 from one insurer, the other only required a checkout in an RV12)
Looking at it with a very open mind, AGE seems to be the only real cost determining factor so far.
I just might see how this works. In a couple of weeks, and before I fly mine, I will have a BFR and probably over 5 hours instruction in an RV12. Wonder how much my rates would go down then? (insurance quote only required 1 hour with instructor in an RV12 from one insurer, the other only required a checkout in an RV12)
Looking at it with a very open mind, AGE seems to be the only real cost determining factor so far.
Type
Type vs make and model are two very different things.
If you get a BFR and log a few hours in any comparable airplane at least some of your issues will go away.
I did my first flight in a non RV 1 1/2 years ago, only four flights in the previous four years. Got a BFR in a 172 and was good to go. 1000 hours in same make and model EAB, most of it many years ago.
Age should not be a MAJOR factor until at least age 90, then it becomes problematic but not impossible. The late Capt. John Miller flew his Bonanza until age 90, at that point he could not find a doctor who would issue a third class medical.
My family friend flew solo at age 95, passed away the next year. Who knows if he had a medical.
Type vs make and model are two very different things.
If you get a BFR and log a few hours in any comparable airplane at least some of your issues will go away.
I did my first flight in a non RV 1 1/2 years ago, only four flights in the previous four years. Got a BFR in a 172 and was good to go. 1000 hours in same make and model EAB, most of it many years ago.
Age should not be a MAJOR factor until at least age 90, then it becomes problematic but not impossible. The late Capt. John Miller flew his Bonanza until age 90, at that point he could not find a doctor who would issue a third class medical.
My family friend flew solo at age 95, passed away the next year. Who knows if he had a medical.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Well it gets worse. AVEMCO wanted $5700 for a premium, that rate AFTER I have a fresh BFR and 5 hours instruction in an RV12. I guess they don't like old people very much either. My gut feeling is to go with Starr Aviation for a year and see what they all say after a year, probably I won't like it because I will be even older!
In the past I have found insurance companies actually rely very little on actual facts, but use some sort of crystal ball or something to determine risks. Unfortunately there is absolutely NO way any insurance company can use any facts to determine the risk of private pilots flying on their drivers license, since we are off the radar for them.
In the past I have found insurance companies actually rely very little on actual facts, but use some sort of crystal ball or something to determine risks. Unfortunately there is absolutely NO way any insurance company can use any facts to determine the risk of private pilots flying on their drivers license, since we are off the radar for them.
I have family in the insurance business and can assure you that any insurers using a crystal ball would have long ago tanked. Insurance companies are extremely good at evaluating risk (at least ones that stay in business are). You may not like what they determine, but that doesn't change statistics.
The only thing they have to go off of are facts (numbers). All of your numbers (age, total time, time in type, ratings, training hours, alternative engine, etc) go into a formula, and that formula tells them how likely you are to have to make a claim.
Statistics of course are meaningless to the individual (you), and you may never have an accident in your life. But it doesn't change the fact that a large enough group of pilots with your same numbers will have more claims than that same size group with lower risk factors. To the insurance companies, you are not an individual, you are part of a group, and they have to adjust rates accordingly.
My car insurance costs more than my wife's, even though neither of us have an accident or any tickets, and I consider myself a better driver (don't tell her). Statistically, she is more likely to get in an accident, but I'm more likely to get in a BIG accident (when men crash, we do it big time). My car insurance company could care less how safe I TELL them I am - the numbers don't lie.
Hopefully you can find some ways to lower your risk factors (besides age), and will also see a reduction after your first year of flying.
Chris
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
From what I have seen the last couple of decades, the above may be true if the pilot has been continuously insured for many, many years. General advice now seems to be that once a pilot reaches 70 he should not let insurance lapse or attempt to switch carriers if he intends to continue flying.
Attempting to secure a new policy at age 80 with no time in make and model with an automotive engine and no recent flying experience.....it is obvious the two quotes Don has received are from carriers that really don't want to write a policy for him. If the other carriers (all reputable) thought a pilot in his situation was an acceptable risk they would have gladly offered quotes and pocketed the premium.
Don, I hate to see you in this situation, but I really hope you don't decide to fly your RV-12 with no insurance. I suggest you consider a liability-only policy. You will have to self-insure the hull against damage, but this may bring the premium down to a realistic figure. But flying without any insurance.....a failed brake and taxiing into a business jet wingtip, someone falling off the wing while getting out of the plane.....
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Insurance
Over 70
no insurance for years on personal airplane
one flight a year for four years
Working in my favor:
long track record with multiple insurance companies as professional pilot
1000 hours plus in make and model
Lycoming clone
high time pilot
no accidents of violations
clean NDR
The only thing I can make of the OP is that the insurance company(s) don't like modifications to RV12.
Regarding going without insurance, 40 years ago probably 80% of small aircraft owners in NE had no insurance. I did not have insurance on my first EAB for most of 11 years.
My personal experience proves most of this wrong.
Over 70
no insurance for years on personal airplane
one flight a year for four years
Working in my favor:
long track record with multiple insurance companies as professional pilot
1000 hours plus in make and model
Lycoming clone
high time pilot
no accidents of violations
clean NDR
The only thing I can make of the OP is that the insurance company(s) don't like modifications to RV12.
Regarding going without insurance, 40 years ago probably 80% of small aircraft owners in NE had no insurance. I did not have insurance on my first EAB for most of 11 years.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
No, your personal experience doesn't prove my position to be wrong, it just proves you are the exception.
Jim, I'm glad you didn't hit my airplane while you didn't have insurance.
And 40 years ago our wonderful land was not nearly as litigious as it is now.
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DonFromTX
Well Known Member
Your assessment of the industry is noble, but is not supported by my quotes with identical information, one at $2875 and another at $5700. Their criteria is kept secret, so who knows!
I have been amused by those that seem to believe that an automotive engine is the culprit, when it didn't seem to make any difference to others with the same engine to their insurers. My circle of friends are mostly RV12 builder/owners of course, most with Viking engines. I have not explored the ELSA vs EAB part yet.
One thing I found interesting is they are not interested if my hours of experience was all 46 years ago, or all this last year. That would seem to make a difference to most of us but is of no concern to them, interesting. The more I compare, the more it seems there is a chart they use, that just adds a percentage to the base premium for each year of age of the applicant.
I don't mind self insuring the hull if it lowers the premium by much, might try that for my own information.
I have been amused by those that seem to believe that an automotive engine is the culprit, when it didn't seem to make any difference to others with the same engine to their insurers. My circle of friends are mostly RV12 builder/owners of course, most with Viking engines. I have not explored the ELSA vs EAB part yet.
One thing I found interesting is they are not interested if my hours of experience was all 46 years ago, or all this last year. That would seem to make a difference to most of us but is of no concern to them, interesting. The more I compare, the more it seems there is a chart they use, that just adds a percentage to the base premium for each year of age of the applicant.
I don't mind self insuring the hull if it lowers the premium by much, might try that for my own information.
Don,
For comparison, my first policy in 2011 was $2800. (Today it's half that).
In 2011:
age 63 (younger)
Plane RV-10 (so worth more)
zero time in make/model
2400 hrs TT
I was current in BFR, had 50 hours in the previous year.
Comm/instrument/cfii licenses/ratings
So some things I was "better", some "worse". Similar premiums, especially if you throw in 6 years of inflation.
BTW, AVEMCO has always quoted me almost twice the premium of anyone else. But they did send me a nice baseball hat!
Another question: What did you ask for, in terms of hull value coverage? Insurance companies are very suspicious if they think the value is inflated.
For comparison, my first policy in 2011 was $2800. (Today it's half that).
In 2011:
age 63 (younger)
Plane RV-10 (so worth more)
zero time in make/model
2400 hrs TT
I was current in BFR, had 50 hours in the previous year.
Comm/instrument/cfii licenses/ratings
So some things I was "better", some "worse". Similar premiums, especially if you throw in 6 years of inflation.
BTW, AVEMCO has always quoted me almost twice the premium of anyone else. But they did send me a nice baseball hat!
Another question: What did you ask for, in terms of hull value coverage? Insurance companies are very suspicious if they think the value is inflated.
I didn't suggest they all used the same formula, just that they all seem to agree that somebody with your stats poses more of a risk. Some of those risk factors you can change, others not. It will go down after a year, if nothing else.
Chris
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
For the record, I have never been fooled into thinking I was not at the top of the risk pool, heck I would not probably insure me either! Being unable to put a finger on the reasons I guess is what bugs me the most.
I am also going to revisit the declared value. I actually have no real idea of its value or what I have spent to build it, I just picked $85g out of the sky, probably $20k less than that is far more realistic.
I am also going to revisit the declared value. I actually have no real idea of its value or what I have spent to build it, I just picked $85g out of the sky, probably $20k less than that is far more realistic.
Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Don, you might also consider GNIM (ground not in motion) coverage. This is what I have on the RV-6, it is protected at all time with liability coverage but hull coverage is only when the plane is stationary. I live in a tornado alley so am more concerned with the -6 being destroyed by a storm than an inflight accident. The premiums are considerably less than full hull coverage.
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
