Need Help Deciding - Transponder ADS-b Out

VAF,

I was about to spend some of my hard earned money to buy a Stratus 2 so I could get traffic on my I-Pad Mini using ForeFlight. That was until I read Walts recent thread, "FAA to limit ADS-B/FIS B (traffic) in 2016".

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=127138

Thanks for that Walt.

My RV8 is equipped with the following:

- Garmin 430 WAAS GPS/COMM
- Garmin 327 Transponder
- AFS 4500 EFIS
- TT Auto Pilot

My mission is local flying with aspirations of long cross countries to far away places like Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas. I think I can accomplish this all flying below 17,999'.

To accomplish the mission, as I understand it, after 2020, I will need a certified transponder with extended squitter (ES) 1090 MHz Out. The transponder must be coupled with a certified GPS position source such as my Garmin 430 W.

So here's my question. With consideration to my current equipment list and the possibility of modifications in the future.

Which certified 1090 ES transponder should I buy and install and why?

Note: Reading the AFS4500 manual shows the EFIS is compatible with the Garmin GTX 330 Transponder and will actually display Traffic Information System (TIS-A) alerts but not TIS-B from ground stations.

I've seen the AOPA ADS-B Out Selector guide in a previous thread here on VAF but remain uncertain as to which device is right for me:
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Technology/ADS-B/ADS-B-Selector

Your thoughts and comments are welcome and appreciated.

Which one would you pick and why?

Mode S from the AOPA list:

Appareo Stratus ESG $3,490 N 2016 Xpdr repl, w/WAAS GPS

Avidyne AXP340 $3,995 N Y Xpdr repl

Avidyne AXP322 $5,450 N May 2015 Remote

Bendix/King KT 74 $2,999 N Y Xpdr repl

FreeFlight Systems Rangr FDL-1090-TX $3,995 N Y Xpdr repl

Garmin GTX 33ES $5,450 N Y Remote

Garmin GTX 330ES $3,995 N Y Xpdr repl

Garmin GTX 23ES $2,450 N Y LSA/Exp

L-3 Avionics Systems NGT-9000 $6,800 Y Y Xpdr repl, w/WAAS GPS

L-3 Avionics Systems NGT-9000+ $9,200 Y Y w/active traff, WAAS GPS

Trig Avionics TT22 $2,875 N Y Remote

Trig Avionics TT31 $2,925 N Y Xpdr repl

Predicting the future in electronics can be tricky...

Digital electronics changed the entire world in terms of service life. Trying to predict what will be the best performer at any price will be a challenge, even two years out.

My choice is to hurry up and wait.

I believe the IPad idea is a good one. You will probably throw that away in less than 5 years, but it is a good display. It acts as the human interface to the electronics. by 2020, they will be brighter, clearer, faster, more powerful, last longer and will probably be flexible. They are battery backup by design, and have another gps, maps, taxi diagrams, phone numbers, etc. etc.

If your issue is safety now, and you have an experimental aircraft, then, there are good low cost options that will be disposable in 5 years, such as:

NavWorx has a new unit for Experimental aircraft (like your RV) and you can add a Transmonspe add-on and use your current transponder.

Skyguard TWX has a nice collection of options, and if you want to add an AHRS that can be a low cost addition. You can also use your current transponder.

In any case, these guys and others are getting you in the air and hopefully 2020 compliant for under $2,000

CC

okay, first of all, you have two choices:
1. Mode S-ES transponder, OR
2. "UAT" transmitting on 978 MHz

Option (1) is required only above 18,000'.
Also, at this time, Canada, Mexico, Carribean countries have no ADSB requirement. But if that changes, it will almost certainly be option (1). Option (1) is being required in Europe and Australia for some.

The only thing required in 2020 is ADSB-out. But you should think about ADSB-in.
The FAA screwed up and did not require communication standards. So, you must make sure your S-ES or UAT can 'read' data from your 430W. That standard is Garmin ADSB+. BTW, you need latest (5.0, I think) software on your 430W to use it at all! Garmin dealer can upgrade it for you. So, for option (1), the least expensive option for you is currently a Trig TT31.($2550 at Spruce)(sell the 327). Wire it to your EFIS for altitude data, and to the 430W for position data. Buy an ADSB-in box that is compatible with the AFS. Another option is the King KN-74 which is actually a Trig clone. But it may require an external air pressure switch for air-ground determination. The Trig TT-22 does not currently read Garmin ADSB+ but Trig says "soon".
For option (2) it is even more complicated. Many UATs have ADSB-in as well as -out, so you need to make sure they accept Garmin protocol in, and can output a format compatible with your AFS. Finally, some UATs come with an internal gps that meets the standards (some have a gos that does not - read carefully). It may be less expensive to get an all in one box, but do not forget the cost of extra antennas, one for the UAT, one for the GPS; plus you cannot sell your 327 if you go option (2).
Yes, it's complicated!

Note added: As you can tell, I recommend getting traffic onto your EFIS, right in front of you. "Pop up" or audio alerts are good, too. Most pilots do not look, nor should they be doing so, at their iPad often enough for it to be a good traffic display, unless it is mounted right in front of them. For weather an iPad is fine. A Stratus will not work with AFS. Get an ADSB-in box that will work with AFS; many will also connect wirelessly to an iPad with WingX (not Foreflight). If you want Foreflight then you'll need a Stratus and a second ADSB-in box for the AFS. These boxes are now in the $500 -$800 price range.
Also, remember that there is no guarantee that all traffic will show up. You still need to see and avoid.

BobTurner said:

Option (1): At this time, Canada, Mexico, Carribean countries have no ADSB requirement. But if that changes, it will almost certainly be option (1). Option (1) is being required in Europe and Australia for some.

Click to expand...

Adding to what Bob Turner posted, 1090ES ADS-B OUT is an ICAO standard. This means that ICAO countries will eventually migrate to the 1090ES ADS-B OUT standard for air traffic separation. Nobody knows how long (1yr or 100yrs) it will be before 1090ES ADS-B OUT equipment will be the worldwide mechanism used for air traffic separation but as Bob Turner posted, some already have.

Within US airspace, and ONLY within US airspace, there are two methods for ADS-B air traffic separation compliance. The ICAO 1090ES ADS-B OUT method and the non ICAO 978UAT ADS-B OUT option. Again, the 978UAT ADS-B OUT method can ONLY be used within US airspace. The 1090ES ADS-B OUT method can be used anywhere in the world, including all US airspace.

So, if you want to have the capability of flying anywhere in the world, then you need ADS-B OUT via a 1090ES transponder. If staying in US airspace is the only flying you will ever do then 978UAT is currently your least expensive option.

ADSB Navworks EAB style

I'm a little confused. I had thought the newly advertised Navworx ADSB 600-EXP would be a somewhat reasonably priced adsb out/in option for us RV drivers at apprx $1,000 and a few hundred more for a few options and I've been thinking about putting it in with either a GRT Sport EFIS or MGL EFIS.

Bob Turner and others, what thoughts or opinions do you have about the Navworx unit with the above EFIS systems?

comfortcat said:

NavWorx has a new unit for Experimental aircraft (like your RV) and you can add a Transmonspe add-on and use your current transponder.

CC

Click to expand...

You will not need the Transmonspe with the gtx327. Pin 20 sends the output to the transceiver.

I'd wait. There are 5 more Airventures between now and 2020.

Sure onboard traffic and weather is nice but not a necessity.

Easiest upgrade

Charlie,

There are a lot of good options out there, and many new ones will popping up in the future.

It will be changing from month to month over the next few years, but will also depend what you want now.

Are you looking for just ADS-B out for now, or ADS-B in to.

If you are just wanting ADS-B out for now, I would recommend the Trig 31. The unit will work for you as it is less than $3000, it is TSO'ed, and the Trig 31 will fit in the same hole as your 327. You can sell your 327 here, which will fetch around $1100, so you can apply that towards the cost of the new mode S transponder. Easy to change the pins from a DB25 connector to Molex for the 31, and works great with your 430W.

You can always go ADS-B in, in the future.

Good luck on your decision, it is going to be a tough one as there are many options out there.

The problem is once everyone starts buying... the vendors could run out of equipment. I really don't think this will happen... I think a more realistic problem is certified aircraft getting appointments in radio shops.
Going back to the question. On the ICAO site you can see the dates for the entire world to go to ADS-B Some countries and places will require it as soon ad 2017. such as North AtlanticTracks if you want a good altitude.

1090ES will be the standard outside of the US... and there are many that will cover both the 1090 and 978 UAT now. I thought long and hard about this decision. Since I do fly IFR and wanted the capabilities of doing Gps approaches I spent the money on getting GTN 650 and tying this into the Dynon's.
But it is not just the GTN 650, I also had to get an audio panel, re due the wiring harness put on another GPS antenna to which added up to about another 15lbs to the empty weight.
You have time to wait... every year something new will come out... For now as I did last year the foreflight and the Stratus were a big help even going VFR. Does not help much around OSHKOSH.
Smilin' Jack

posterman said:

I'm a little confused. I had thought the newly advertised Navworx ADSB 600-EXP would be a somewhat reasonably priced adsb out/in option for us RV drivers at apprx $1,000 and a few hundred more for a few options and I've been thinking about putting it in with either a GRT Sport EFIS or MGL EFIS.

Bob Turner and others, what thoughts or opinions do you have about the Navworx unit with the above EFIS systems?

Click to expand...

We'll, the price keeps creeping up and does not include antennas. And you have to keep, not sell, an existing transponder. Navworks has decided to test the FAA waters with "it meets TSO requirements but does not carry a TSO". I think that will pass. But, they have not, as far as I know, stated explicitly that their gps meets the FAR 91.227 specs. Until I see that, in writing, I'm keeping my money.
My opinion.

Pdtofly said:

Charlie,

There are a lot of good options out there, and many new ones will popping up in the future.

It will be changing from month to month over the next few years, but will also depend what you want now.

Are you looking for just ADS-B out for now, or ADS-B in to.

If you are just wanting ADS-B out for now, I would recommend the Trig 31. The unit will work for you as it is less than $3000, it is TSO'ed, and the Trig 31 will fit in the same hole as your 327. You can sell your 327 here, which will fetch around $1100, so you can apply that towards the cost of the new mode S transponder. Easy to change the pins from a DB25 connector to Molex for the 31, and works great with your 430W.

You can always go ADS-B in, in the future.

Good look on your decision, it is going to be a tough one as there are many options out there.

Click to expand...

Brian,

Thanks for the response and opinion.

To answer your question:

"Are you looking for just ADS-B out for now, or ADS-B in to?"

Answer: Both ADS-B In and ADS-B out.

I'm looking for suggestions for a one time purchase of a high integrity 91.225 compliant transponder (1090ES ADS-B out - TIS-A, SIL 3, SDA 2) that will still be usable should I decide to upgrade my AFS-4500 EFIS and Garmin 430 WAAS to something else. I would rather spend a little more now than have to do it twice. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks again for your recommendations everyone.

BobTurner said:

....The FAA screwed up and did not require communication standards. So, you must make sure your S-ES or UAT can 'read' data from your 430W. That standard is Garmin ADSB+. BTW, you need latest (5.0, I think) software on your 430W to use it at all! Garmin dealer can upgrade it for you.

Click to expand...

Bob,

Thank you. One thing you said that really caught my eye was:

"...you need latest (5.0, I think) software on your 430W to use it at all!"

Never heard that before. I'm going to look into that and go back and re-read your post for other morsels of informative info like that. Hopefully that update isn't cost prohibitive.

Any idea if I would have to send my 430 W back to have the 5.0 update done?

Thank you!

430W

You need at least 5.03 on your 4/530W to support ADS-B out to a compatible ES transponder. Any Garmin shop can update it on their bench.

AllThumbs said:

You need at least 5.03 on your 4/530W to support ADS-B out to a compatible ES transponder. Any Garmin shop can update it on their bench.

Click to expand...

The software is free from Garmin, but you must go to a dealer to have it installed. Probably pay them one hour of labor, unless they really like you.
BTW, SIL and SDA numbers apply to the GPS, not the transponder.

Chkaharyer99 said:

Brian,


[/B]I'm looking for suggestions for a one time purchase of a high integrity 91.225 compliant transponder (1090ES ADS-B out - TIS-A, SIL 3, SDA 2) that will still be usable should I decide to upgrade my AFS-4500 EFIS and Garmin 430 WAAS to something else. I would rather spend a little more now than have to do it twice. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks again for your recommendations everyone.

Click to expand...

This is a tougher call. If you upgrade the 430W to another Garmin (650/750) there will be no issue, they output the same ADSB+ format. But if you go to King or Avidyne, they might not feed, say, a Trig 31. and if you upgrade your efis to, say, a Garmin G3X, it will not read an ADSB-in box that works with the AFS. I think the GRTs will work with any box that works with the AFS. Dynon efis, I don't think so. But at least -in boxes are relatively cheap.

Wait

Three responders said to wait:

Comfortcat, "Hurry up and wait".

boom3, "Id wait".

Smilin' Jack, "You have time to wait".


Thanks for the advise guys. The issue is complex, especially now with the FAA recent announcement. I bet sales for device like Foreflight/Stratus fall off significantly.

Bob Turner,

Thanks for the tip on having traffic displayed on the EFIS as opposed to the IPAD. Makes sense. I rarely look at my IPAD in flight. Its not mounted. But I do scan my EFIS to do a systems check. Plus the AFS-4500 has alerts, for things like altitude. Not sure if the have alerts for traffic.

We are going to Osh Kosh Wednesday - Saturday. Maybe there will be some class on this subject.

Thanks everyone for your contributions.

I'm leaning towards the purchase of the Garmin GTX 330 ES.

Is there any reason I should avoid this product?

I also like the Appareo, but it not out yet.

Message received. Wait

"I'm leaning towards the purchase of the Garmin GTX 330 ES.
Is there any reason I should avoid this product?"

YES - there are very good reasons to avoid the GTX330ES.
Let's start at the top... PRICE - nearly a thousand bucks more than the Trig.
Then look at size (very deep unit, requires modification of structure in some RV's) weight, power consumption, and the need for forced air cooling if you want the thing to live a long and happy life in warm climates and dense traffic areas.

These are all strikes against the GTX330ES. The unit is a good unit, but it is definitely not the most current design. The newer units that have been brought to market to respond to the ADS-B-OUT requirement are almost always smaller, lighter, less power hungry and cheaper than the Garmin unit. Garmin is due for a redesign of their transponders as both their panel mount and remote mount units are starting to get a little long in the tooth.

I used an iPad on a long (1000 nm each way) trip last summer in my RV-8, and did not like it because of sunlight readability and having to hold it in order to enter data. (I had ADS-B in on that flight). I'm currently redoing the panel on my RV-9A, and I will have a tablet only for reading approach plates and as a backup -- everything that I will want full time or quickly will be on the panel.

Your experience is different from mine, obviously...

Canadian_JOY said:

"I'm leaning towards the purchase of the Garmin GTX 330 ES.
Is there any reason I should avoid this product?"

YES - there are very good reasons to avoid the GTX330ES.
Let's start at the top... PRICE - nearly a thousand bucks more than the Trig.
Then look at size (very deep unit, requires modification of structure in some RV's) weight, power consumption, and the need for forced air cooling if you want the thing to live a long and happy life in warm climates and dense traffic areas.

These are all strikes against the GTX330ES. The unit is a good unit, but it is definitely not the most current design. The newer units that have been brought to market to respond to the ADS-B-OUT requirement are almost always smaller, lighter, less power hungry and cheaper than the Garmin unit. Garmin is due for a redesign of their transponders as both their panel mount and remote mount units are starting to get a little long in the tooth.

Click to expand...

CJ,

Thank you. Another good reason to wait.