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RV-10 Project Planning

A

AviatorJ

Well Known Member
Last year I bought a project plane. A moderately beat up 172N 180 conversion with about 7000 tt. I spent the better part of 6 months working with an A&P installing a STOL, overhauling the engine, getting it painted, new avionics and a brand new interior that I did essentially on my own and about 8 STCs of various types. Though out this process I learned I really enjoyed learning and tinkering with the plane about as much as I like flying it... and I really like flying it putting 100 hours on it in the last 8 months.

The plane is great but I often think about my next plane... a Baron 58 perhaps, Cirrus SR22, another certified project plane or something different. It's the something different which led me one day to look into experimental aircraft and after much research I'm sold. My next plane will be an RV-10. It perfectly fits my mission- I like to fly around by myself, or with 3 other people... local area and cross country both. I will also be able to tinker with it, replace a $10 light fixture with a $10 fixture and not be force to replace a $10 fixture with a $200 one.

I'm still a bit of a ways out from starting because I have a number of things going on right now. Getting my instrument rating, summer trips with the kids, ect. In the mean time though being a Program Manager by trade I like to be very organized and get everything put together in a nice neat little package. So when I'm ready to roll I have somewhat of an understanding on what I'm looking to accomplish "Beginning with the end in mind" is one of my mantras.

From reading/watching/learning about other people's builds I'm finding there is no single project that mirrors another. In my planning process I want to put down substitute parts or additions that I'm interested in and through progressive elaboration change as needed. I'm not looking to write it in stone, but rather have the idea that a lot of people prefer different door latches. So this rather long post to get to a single question is "Is there a resource that lists some of the most common modifications to the RV-10 kit?"
 
Thanks. That was one of the first RV-10 pages I read through. I'll just start going through each item and learning about it.
 
I found that hearing about options or changes in the beginning didn't do me much good as I did not completely understand them. I found it best to get started building. Then as I progressed I would spend non building time reading VAF and other peoples opinions until I came up with my own. It was easy to understand once I was underway. And I think I made better choices. The build takes so long that it is easy to stay out front of those things.
 
MarkW said:
I found that hearing about options or changes in the beginning didn't do me much good as I did not completely understand them. I found it best to get started building. Then as I progressed I would spend non building time reading VAF and other peoples opinions until I came up with my own. It was easy to understand once I was underway. And I think I made better choices. The build takes so long that it is easy to stay out front of those things.
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This is very accurate advice IMO. Definitely a good idea to read, observe, ask questions, make notes for the future, etc. But few things require any serious decision making up front. I'm a third (guessing) of the way through my fuselage (all SB) and I'm just now expending some mental energy on systems/component planning. Conduit through the wings, Gretz pitot mast, center tunnel access panel, and leaving the tailcone open (for antenna installation) is really all I've done to this point outside of following the plans and building the airframe. As stated above, you will get a much better sense of the bigger picture once underway.
 
MarkW said:
I found it best to get started building. Then as I progressed I would spend non building time reading VAF and other peoples opinions until I came up with my own. It was easy to understand once I was underway.
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That makes sense. I suppose there's no life changing decisions needed to start on the empennage. I plan to do the Quickbuild on the Wings and Fuselage though.
 
I am with you on the RV-10. I have been spending every possible min available researching costs, mods and planning.

Going to EAA this year and hope to get a lot more answers.

Also looking to get a ride in a -10 between now and then to help "seal the deal"...

Anyone in North or Central Texas, please let me know..
 
I couldn't agree more with the above posts...
Researching is half the fun. When I started I researched endlessly. I still do somewhat (although I don't have too many things left to decide or install).
A lot of that research didn't make sense until further along in the project when I had a few of those "aha, that's what they were talking about" moments...

Figuring for yourself what changes/mods/additions is part of the journey based on your mission/timeline/budget etc....

My bookmark list of things RV related alone would crash NASA circa 1969.
 
Mods

Yes, do the research!

I will add one thing, though. When you look at a mod and figure how much time it will take to complete it, multiply whatever time you are thinking by three and you might be close.

Even the "simplest" mods take WAY more time than they would appear to...
 
txbeerknurd said:
I am with you on the RV-10. I have been spending every possible min available researching costs, mods and planning.

Going to EAA this year and hope to get a lot more answers.

Also looking to get a ride in a -10 between now and then to help "seal the deal"...

Anyone in North or Central Texas, please let me know..
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I know of at least three RV-10s in the metro DFW area. I'm sure that there are more. Alex's RV training site is: http://rvtraining.com/

Usually there is a RV-10 dinner in Camp Scholler on Sunday evening. Usually details will start to be posted the week before.

There will be plenty of RV-10s to see at OSH. I'll be in HBC Sat - Sat.

My wife got her first ride in one at OSH. If you get to Van's early in the week, they give demo rides. I think for the RV-10, they charge $50, but credit that amount when you order a kit. Also, there are usually other opportunities to go flying.
 
All I have to say is that you will be filling out a lot of Change Requests as you build.

The reason is that you will continue to learn about what you want and "need" in your custom built RV-10.

The plans are the best project plan ever, with a very good WBS breakdown.

At this stage, don't get to hung up in the project planning. Think of it as the Initiation phase, you still have a lot learn before you get to the Planning phase.

Good luck with your next "project".

One other thing with regard to a project like this, everything will slip. Family will get in the way of resources and time. Then there is that new gizmo that you must install but first, you must modify something to make it work. Blah, blah, blah... You know the drill.
 
I feel you, AviatorJ

Planning another project here, too. The '98 6-A is getting a little doggy and payload-limited as we age (a diet would repair some of that). We are rebuilding after a total-loss house fire, and the basement workshop will rise from the ashes in a new form, with more man-cave amenities than before :D

The 10 fills the bill, and with all the excellent help available here, it won't be as daunting as the 6A was, back in the days before online communities, when the Orndorff videos were the closest thing to having anyone around who knew anything about building airplanes.

Like you, I need to keep it in perspective. First things first, and one thing at a time. This stuff is never more important than family. I sat in the factory 10 the year it debuted at SnF, and had my million-dollar ride with RWayne last fall in Vidalia. The juices have always been flowing, but a project of this magnitude demands careful planning and lots of delayed gratification.

So far, all I know is that the shop door must be large enough to get a 10 fuse/emp through it, I will use a Ron Schrek tool cart to organize my tools, Stein and or Jason will do the majority of my panel work, I won't paint this one myself, and I will find a way to include Jesse Saint's counsel and expertise in the project all along the way - especially in the planning and gathering phase. Somehow, I will find the skill and courage to make the first flight off my turf runway rather than trucking the thing 40 miles to the nearest airport when the day comes.

One bite at a time.

-Stormy
 
Go to Kitlogpro and look at some of the -10 builds. I went thru several for ideas and sequences of construction. Just following the construction order in the plans is far from the most efficient process.

This site has an incredible amount of great information on almost every topic relating to RVs as someone else said. Learn the advanced search option well. I used to spend at least a couple of hours a week digging thru posts. Some marginal information is out there, so keep a salt shaker handy.
 
Thanks for all the great replies. If anything it put my mind to rest that I don't need to have it all "figured out" before I order the empennage.
 
Before I order my kit I want to get my workspace in order and order the tools required. A few questions about that.

On the workspace I'm going to use my 3 car garage and really at times only use a single space and other times pull it out into two spaces. Last weekend I put together a pair of the EAA 1000 workbenches. I also have a 2' x 4' rack with 5 shelves. I plan to do all the work from these benches and use the racks for part storage. This sound like sufficient space to build? My only concern really would be the priming/corrosion control of parts.

The other question is around the tools. Is the common thing for first time builders to just order an 'RV Toolkit' from somewhere? I usually research the heck out of tools before I buy them. I'm a big believer in you get what you pay for and don't want to drop a good bit of change on some tools only to have them be subpar quality.

Thanks
 
A single car stall area is fine for building for quite a while. When you get to the point where you join the tailcone to the cabin things will start getting a bit tight. You probably won't have quite enough shelf space for storing "stuff" if you like to have it all spread out on the shelves.

I'd personally recommend getting an RV tool kit from one of the major tool vendors and make sure it has a pneumatic squeezer. Another favorite will be a DRDT dimpler. Some will say you can get by without either but it's MUCH nicer with both. I've personally had excellent experiences with both Cleveland and Avery but have heard good things about a couple others. You can probably save a few bucks by scrounging but if you don't have the time or desire to do that, just give Mike at Cleveland or Bob at Avery a call and they'll fix you up.
 
What Bob said...

...I am working in a 3 car garage, using 2 stalls. I have plenty of room, but I'm not yet ready to join the tailcone. At that time, I will probably take up some of the 3rd stall. Definitely get the pneumatic squeezer and DRDT2 dimpler. I'd also add that, when you get a RV tool kit, pay for some of the upgrades like: a Tungsten Bucking Bar, Sioux Palm Drill, Right Angle Drill and more clecos! (the 10 needs a lot).
 
Do I need to make another table for the DRDT2 dimpler, or does it just sit on one of the workbenches? I could probably put together a table with that on it pretty easily.
 
Just set it on a table as needed. You will want a couple of small "platforms" to have one on each side of the DRDT to support skins. When you get the DRDT it will be obvious.
 
bcondrey said:
Just set it on a table as needed. You will want a couple of small "platforms" to have one on each side of the DRDT to support skins. When you get the DRDT it will be obvious.
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I see what you mean. The first picture I saw when I looked it up looked like they built a specific table for it.

images
 
AviatorJ said:
Do I need to make another table for the DRDT2 dimpler, or does it just sit on one of the workbenches? I could probably put together a table with that on it pretty easily.
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I built a separate table. I didn't want to have to lug it out and set it up on a table. I'm lazy and it's heavy.

This is simply a $25 Harbor Freight stand with a sheet of 3/4 plywood. You'll notice that the table top isn't attached. It slides forward and aft to accommodate large objects like the wing skins.

bob


FP16112010A0001R.jpg
 
DRDT2 Table

The DRDT2 comes with instructions to make a little carpeted "surround." The whole thing just sits on your workbench, or the floor, or whatever. Some people go to great lengths to embed their dimplers into their benches and stuff. I say, keep it simple and, more importantly, flexible. By being able to orient/locate the dimpler as needed, it allows greater flexibility when dimpling large skins and stuff (Like when you're building a 10).:)
 
I was using my DRDT2 yesterday and recalled how thankful I am for that tool. I am thankful I kept it portable and not fixed to a station. I have plenty of space to provide a dedicated station, but the portability allows flexibility for me. I do admit it is hefty to move about. I enjoy the building process, but I am reminded of the goal I have in mind; fly the beast. The longer I spend preparing tools and jigs to begin the building, the longer it seems when I will experience the lift off.
 
I had so much fun building the EAA tables that I went ahead and built a 4' wide one on casters. I'll use this as my main move able workbench in conjunction with the 2 5' wide semi stationary workbenches. As I wrap up some other organizational items I'll take some pictures and share them.

I'm going to order a set of RV builder tools soonish. I'll do the suggested upgrades with pneumatic squeezer, drdt2, ect. I need to get a new air compressor though, the one I have lives in the hangar and is used in there for various tasks. It's also pretty loud.

What are some suggestion air compressors for building the RV-10? Keep in mind it has to be 120, sound is a concern and I can't build any type of sound proofing box for it, only painting I will do myself is corrosion proofing parts. I read a number of threads on this subject and it seems everyone is all over the place on suggestions.
 
I had an electrician put in 220 service. I'm happy I did. My only regret is that I went with a single stage 60 Gallon compressor. It's loud. Wishing I had just bit the bullet and gone with the 2-stage 60 Gallon.

When you're drilling skins or using the angle grinder, you use a lot of air. The compressor kicking on and off and on and off can get a bit annoying when it's loud as heck!!
 
One Suggestion

J,

If you don't have access to a 220V power source, your choices are limited, with regard to volume, recharge speed and quietness. I had the same limitation (110V only) and found a 29 gallon, oiled compressor at Harbor Freight that seemed to me to be the best bang for the buck.
http://www.harborfreight.com/29-gal-2-HP-150-PSI-Cast-Iron-Vertical-Air-Compressor-69865.html
Here's how it stacks up (for me):
Loudness - Quieter than an oil-less for sure, but I still wear hearing protection in the shop, for when it's kicked on. If you could relocate it outside or in a sound box, I would recommend it. Otherwise, just get some ear muffs to wear when needed.
Volume - 29 gallons is okay for most things (i.e. drill, squeezer, rivet gun, cleco runner and cleco puller) but will kick on often for things that use a lot of air (cutoff wheel, vacuum, paint sprayer). Some people have solved this by using a large storage tank (maybe 30 gallon) inline with the compressor, thus giving you more volume
Cost - It's HF, so it was cheap, especially with a 20% off coupon. Their 2 year replacement warranty was also cheap insurance.
Durability - So far, I've been using mine for over 4 years, fairly regularly, with no problems. I drain my tank (through a hose outside) at the end of every session and I also live in a dry climate. Oil usage has been minimal.
 
Obviously you can spend a ton of $ on a compressor.... We went with a 60 gallon Craftsman upright after the old 50 gallon died. $450, not too bad. It's not 2 stage but I find it to be reasonably quiet. Compared to the pancake compressor we had to use in the interval, it's quiet as a mouse:)
For cutting and grinding (Esp for things like the doors) I've been using one of those vibrating/oscillating electric tools from HF. Way easier to use and makes way less mess than an air tool. Best $20 I ever spent...Just FYI
 
Wish I would of put a 220 in the garage when I built this house. But a mess of spray foam and a full panel later, it's not possible.

That said it sounds like I could get by with a 25 gal+ model. If I need to do grinding then I'll get an electric tool I suppose.
 
I started with a Craftsman 25 gal oiless (loud as h***). When it died I went with a Craftsman belt driven, oil model -- way better. One issue you might want to checkout before you buy--amps not volts. When my project moved from my basement to garage, I was surprised to learn that my garage outlets were on 15 amp circuits fed by 14 gauge wire (so no easy upgrade at the fuse box). As a result, my 110v compressor would not run. So I switched to electric drills and used air only to rivet (ran air hose through the house up from the basement to the garage when I needed air).
 
AviatorJ said:
Just checked.. My outlets are 20a so I shouldn't have an issue. I think this is the one I'm settled on.. Might wait for a sale though.

porter-cable-portable-belt-drive-air-compressor-30-gal
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J,

The Harbor Fright one appears to be similar in all regards and (with a 20% coupon, in the back of every Flying magazine) would come in at half the cost of the Porter Cable one. i.e. no need to wait for a sale at Tractor Supply...
just sayin... :)
 
Well here's something I didn't account for... Life Insurance..

I have a fairly stout supplemental life insurance policy through my employer. It's important to me that if something happens to me that my family will make out fine and not have to worry about the loss of my income.

We recently switched providers and while the old one didn't care if I fly, I need to check that with our new one. On top of that I've read that some providers aren't Kosher with experimental type airplanes. I really hope that's not the case, but if it is I'm going to have to stick to certified planes.

If all is a go I'm literally ordering my empennage and tools that day.
 
Good luck with your insurance. Please report back.

Most general policies do not cover "Non Airlines" and simply don't differentiate between homebuilt and store bought.
 
N941WR said:
Good luck with your insurance. Please report back.

Most general policies do not cover "Non Airlines" and simply don't differentiate between homebuilt and store bought.
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So I talked to the Hartford Group today about my policy with them. Guy was extremely helpful, put me on hold I assume to find the exact answer. Came back with flying is not an 'excluded' activity and it doesn't matter what I fly... gliders, twin, motorized parachute ect.. They would 'most likely' pay to my beneficiaries if something unfortunate happened to me. He said 'most likely' because there would still be an investigation. The investigation would be to make sure it wasn't suicide, negligence or something completely my fault.

Not sure if I built the airplane that crashed, if they would say I was negligent...
 
AviatorJ said:
If all is a go I'm literally ordering my empennage and tools that day.
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I suppose by 'that day' I meant about a month later. I had some reservations about tackling a project like this... as I read blogs I was a bit overwhelmed with everything it entails.

But after I literally listed out pros/cons on a sheet of paper the pros won and I'm now dedicating the next 3 to 5 years of my off time to do this project!

Happy to say I just sent off my empennage order form and am working with Cleveland tools to get squared away with that. Also started a Blog which will be useful to track the project.

Lets do this!

http://operationrv10.blogspot.com/
 
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No, you won't be disappointed. You are building "the greatest ship in the universe". I've been flying for about 30 years, and I still have to pinch myself when I fly the 10.....surreal experience. This evening I visited the hanger just to sit look at it in the evening light.

 
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