Help Me Spend $10,000

Fun, no?

Here's the situation: We purchased our RV-8A in June. It's ten years old, with just 400 hours on her. (Of which we've put 100 on since June.)

When the original Arizona builder was putting her together, it appears that he solidified the panel design in about 1998. As a result, the panel is strictly steam gauges, with a Garmin GNC-300XL GPS/COM slaved to an excellent TruTrak two-axis autopilot. It also has an ancient GRT EFIS, and an antique analog King transponder.

My wife (also a pilot) hates the single com set-up, and we both despise the EFIS with a passion. We've grown used to it, and it does provide the necessary information -- but we long for the graphic readout we enjoyed with the JPI in our last plane.

So...we want to trash pretty much everything except the autopilot, and start over.

With that in mind, I've been reading...and reading...and reading. Everything I read seems to create new questions. Every opinion I receive seems to contradict the last opinion I've received. This has been incredibly frustrating.

I've narrowed my search to Dynon's SkyView system, and GRT's HXr. Both in the 10" size. Beyond that, I've run into a couple of brick walls.

First, I need a shop in Texas to do the work. I'm hip-deep in off-season remodeling at our hotel (just finished the Flying Tigers Room) and just don't have the time to start another project. I've got a local avionics guy who is interested, but he has ZERO experience working with experimental aircraft. This has me a bit nervous. I'd rather have an experienced RVer do it.

Second, I need advice from someone who has experience flying behind both systems. They appear to be quite similar, but I know nothing of these companies other than what their websites tell me. Who's got the better service? Support? Upgrades? Future?

I need someone that can actually TELL ME WHAT I NEED, when I give them the parameters of what I want to do. Here's a list of what I'm thinking I want in the panel:

- 10"+ display
- Moving map navigation
- Sectional map display
- Must work with the Tru-Trak autopilot
- Must work with the existing GRT engine monitoring probes
- Synthetic vision
- Dual com capability.
- Integrated transponder

Given these parameters, what do I need to buy?

It seems like the more I learn, the less I know! Part of the problem is that I did not build the plane. Thus, I don't know the structure of the panel. For example, is it possible to install the new avionics into a new panel outside of the plane, get everything wired up and working on the bench, and then remove the entire existing panel and (more or less) install the new panel as a whole? Or, as in all of my other airplanes, do you have to do everything in the plane as it sits in the hangar?

I know these questions will probably spur more questions, and I'll bet there are strong feelings in favor of both systems, but I'm here to learn! Anyone want to take a swing at this on a fine Christmas day eve?

Jay, having just done a full panel upgrade I think you will find that 10k is going to not be nearly enough for what you want to add to the aircraft. In fact if you hire it done some of the better panel installers will charge that for labor alone.
The other thing I found is that there is not a lot of compatibility between companies and even within the same brands over time. We were unable to reuse many items we planned on keeping to reduce cost.
We did save money by picking up some new old stock items. Watch the ads here. You might also want to get the ADSB mods done since 2020 will get here fast.
George

As part of your research, call SteinAir and have this discussion with Stein. He can build and wire a new panel and ship it to you or your designated installer.

I've never purchased a thing from him, but have bounced a number of ideas off of him over the years and have found him to be a very well informed resource. His reputation within the community is stellar.

Jay,
I went through the same thing in my 8 a, I actually went through several phases of upgrades. Since you have a GRT EIS the SX would make a perfect combo and the least money to upgrade.
I pm'ed you a link to pictures.
Tech Aero in Denton did the work on mine and has a lot of experience with experimental avionics.
You might also want to talk to Walt about doing the work.
I agree that 10k is not going to be enough if you add a nice GPS/NAV/COM.
Tim

Tim 8-A said:

I agree that 10k is not going to be enough if you add a nice GPS/NAV/COM.

Click to expand...

Except maybe a decent second hand GNS430 if someone is upgrading to the 650..........

I can understand your desire to up grade. Can you post a photo of your existing panel? What is your mission? IFR or better VFR? If you are looking at IFR, better double or triple your budget! A newer certified GPS alone will eat up your $10,000 and leave little left over for labor.

I second calling Stein and I would also call Katie at GRT and look at upgrade options of the existing GRT equipment. If you can use any part of the existing panel, that would help you get it done for less.

I final option might be to sell your plane and purchase one with a panel that is closer to what you want.

Jay,

Best to call both manufacturers to ensure all your base requirements (and perhaps your nice to haves) are covered by either system. Others have given some good advice; namely:

$10 will go quick!
Definitely talk w/ Stein
Definitely talk w/ Walt - really wish I was close to Walt's shop

I have not flown the GRT, but fly behind the SV. Here is my take:

- If you are looking at the Skyview, then I believe a 10" HXr is the apples to apples comparison

- I believe you will have to replace the servos with either system's proprietary ones to get full integration (definitely add to discussion list)

- As has been said, your GRT probes/EIS lends the initial compatibility to GRT

- Not accounting for projected software upgrades, each system has a few items that the other doesn't (e.g. GRT has HITS, Dynon does not, Dynon has approach plates, cannot find any indication that GRT currently does)

My personal opinion is that I believe Dynon's recent team up with AFS is a good thing. Recent updates have really expanded the system, and I have to believe the teaming only helps the advances. One example of this is talk of upcoming updates adding sectionals and fight plan cross-fill from 430/650 (one that I'm excited about) - features that AFS has had.

Kind of like AA, I freely admit I am a gadget junkie. Some guys almost take "over equipping" an RV personally - to each his own. Your money, your prerogative, your choice. My cockpit is so functional and so low-stress in all regimes that it still amazes me each flight. Brantel's recent (amazing) panel upgrade is an example of the amazing capability that can be had if the wallet is deep enough.

Having said all of this... really, really look at your mission only VFR, CC every other weekend or twice a year, etc. With the hectic past few holiday months, my last 15 hours have been short local flights, or short CC of about 1 hour or so. All that nice stuff in my panel (moving maps, AP, FD, XM, etc) has just sat there while I look out the window and fly my plane with a quick cross check of alt/as every once in a while - something that a few round guages could do. Vlad is spot on - lots of AVgas to be had. Part of my thought process during my upcoming build ( ) will definitely be resale, however. Folks seem to want glass - it is what it is.

Lastly, I don't think you can do much better than either company when it comes to customer service. Dynon has been absolutely awesome, and Katie is always here helping folks out.

60av8tor said:

- As has been said, your GRT probes/EIS lends the initial compatibility to GRTupgrades, each system has a few items that the other doesn't (e.g. GRT has HITS, Dynon does not, Dynon has approach plates, cannot find any indication that GRT currently does)

Click to expand...

The HXr can display plates. Instructions are on the GRT website. they look great and the download is free.

http://grtavionics.com/approachplates.html

I updated my panel from Chelton to the GRT Hxr 10" screen a few months ago. I already had GRT EIS, so no firewall forward changes. That was an important factor for me. Stein built my original panel back in 2008 and the detailed drawings and documentation that I had from him were invaluable. Additionally, Stein was very helpful during the update process. I purchased the new hardware from Stein, as well. No better customer service to be had, in my opinion.
As mentioned above, the Hxr does show approach plates, but they are not geo-referenced at this time. Still, the download is very easy and the display is great. I believe geo-referenced approach plates is something GRT plans to add in the future. I also have a Tru Trak AP and no servo changes were required. It works flawlessly with the GRT and is fully integrated. I imagine this will somewhat depend on which model of Tru Trak you have. I also updated my GTX-330 xpdr to ES for ADS-B "out" and added the SkyRadar D-2 ADS-B "in" receiver that displays on the the Hxr. Works great, and I no longer have the annual WSI weather fee, or the Jeppesen annual fee for Chelton database updates.
Customer support from GRT has been first class.
I made the update for well under $10K, but, I stayed with my existing 430W and SL30.
I will add to the chorus and suggest talking to Stein to get his insights to the pros and cons of each system, based on your mission requirements.

pauldan181 said:

The HXr can display plates. Instructions are on the GRT website. they look great and the download is free.

http://grtavionics.com/approachplates.html

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction, Paul. Missed that feature during my scan of their site.

I have flown behind both GRT and Dynon during IFR practice approach and find GRT is much easier and perhaps capable. For VFR flying, both company provide a great system.

jjhoneck said:

As a result, the panel is strictly steam gauges, with a Garmin GNC-300XL GPS/COM slaved to an excellent TruTrak two-access autopilot. It also has an ancient GRT EFIS,-----we both despise the EFIS with a passion.

Click to expand...

The above is in conflict with itself----------you state strictly steam gauges, but you also say there is an EFIS, which is an Electronic Flight Instrument System. This is what the Skyview or the GRT HXR units are-----EFIS.

I suspect you are trying to say that you have an EIS-----Engine Information System. And, I agree it is a pain to use-----but when coupled to a GRT EFIS, it is a wonderful unit. More on it later.

This is an EIS

jjhoneck said:

So...we want to trash pretty much everything except the autopilot, and start over.

I've narrowed my search to Dynon's SkyView system, and GRT's HXr. Both in the 10" size.

Second, I need advice from someone who has experience flying behind both systems. They appear to be quite similar, but I know nothing of these companies other than what their websites tell me. Who's got the better service? Support? Upgrades? Future?

Click to expand...

I have GRT, and the support is absolutely top notch, gold standard. As far as I know, Dynon is also extremely good with customer care/service, but I have no empirical data.

jjhoneck said:

I need someone that can actually TELL ME WHAT I NEED, when I give them the parameters of what I want to do. Here's a list of what I'm thinking I want in the panel:

- 10"+ display
- Moving map navigation
- Sectional map display
- Must work with the Tru-Trak autopilot
- Must work with the existing GRT engine monitoring probes
- Synthetic vision
- Dual com capability.
- Integrated transponder

Click to expand...

As others have said, call Stein.

One thing I will add here is that the GRT will talk to the existing engine probes/sensors, but I do not believe the SkyView will-----------this is in reference to your desire to keep the GRT engine sensors. In fact, if you do have an EIS in there, then (IIRC) all you need is one wire to send data to the EFIS.

jjhoneck said:

First, I need a shop in Texas to do the work.

Click to expand...

Walt at ExpAircraft?? http://expaircraft.com/

Here is a shot of my panel, the EFIS units are displaying a map page on the left unit, and engine page on the right unit. You can also see a part of the EIS on top of the radio stack to the far right.

The engine page is displaying information from the EIS, but in a graphic manner.



Hope this helps, and that it clears up the EIS/EFIS confusion that I suspect you are having.

Good luck with whatever direction you choose to pursue.

Thanks for the great advice!

Sorry I forgot to mention that our mission is what I call "hard VFR". We have spent decades exploring the continent, all VFR by choice.

In today's world, that means weather depiction/avoidance. In the past we used the XM weather/Garmin 496 combo. Currently, we use the Garmin GDL-39/Nexus 7 running Garmin Pilot combo, which works great.

Ideally, this functionality would be integrated into any MFD we buy.

Let me poke around for some pix of our current panel. The first time I saw it, I actually laughed out loud. It appears to have been designed by a drunk (and possibly blind) monkey. I've gotten used to it, and it gets the job done when supplemented with a back seater feeding you info from the tablet.

I can't imagine flying into any busy airspace, single-pilot, with our current single-com set up.

Yes, I meant to say "EIS" not "EFIS". Sorry.

Here's a picture of our current panel. I've removed the silly gooseneck light, since this was taken, and changed the alternator breaker to a breaker/switch. Otherwise, it's what we're flying with right now.

If you end up with the HXR, you will want to keep the EIS.

You can mount it elsewhere, and free up panel space as a lot of other folks have done. The EIS is the data "hub" for the engine sensors, and sends a data stream to the EFIS. Take a look at this thread, start on page 22 for the EIS stuff. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=39772

The EIS may or may not work with the SkyView----just dont know. I suspect it is not compatible.

I would think about keeping the GPS/COM, and adding a second remote COM. You are not flying IFR, so no need for a IFR certified unit. The EFIS should display position data from your existing unit, or it can use an internal GPS. Having both will give you a backup.

Jay,
First, good luck on your decision! You're looking at two well respected companies with great products.

Now, let me put the Dynon spin on all of this:

Dynon is the market leader in Experimental EFIS systems. We have over 10,000 EFIS units in the field, and we are a company of over 60 people working full time to make the best, most affordable avionics possible. We are highly vertically integrated, making all of our equipment in house in Seattle, WA. We have two full time support people, a full time software tester, and almost 20 pilots. We update our manuals with every software release, we do extensive testing before every release. Support is what we do.

Go to our change log here and you can see how we document every release:
http://dynonavionics.com/docs/WhatsNew_SkyView.html

Check out our support forum and you can see how many customers we have and how responsive we are:
http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

All of our products include a 3 year warranty, and we can still repair an EFIS unit made 10 years ago for a minimal fixed charge. A 10 year old EFIS D10A just got a free firmware update a few months ago!

We also have many full time sales support people, and we'd love to talk to you on the phone and help you with your decision. No hard sales, we promise!

Dynon also believes that your time should be spent flying, not maintaining your EFIS. We have free database updates, which we post on our website about a week before they are needed. This is something we take very seriously, and you won't find our updates to be sporadic like some other companies. When it comes to approach plates, we partner with Seattle Avionics, another professional company that does this for a living, and give you an easy way to get georeferenced approach plates, airport diagrams, and flight guide diagrams onto your system. We don't make you install a script on your PC and go to a command prompt to get them or rely on another user to package them for you.

Finally, everything with SkyView has been designed to be easy and quick to install. Every SkyView screen comes with a professionally made harness which allows you to just plug into aircraft power and a few other connections and go. We sell pre-made cables in different lengths that plug between our screens and our modules and require no manual wiring work. These things should significantly reduce the time and issues in an install, and we think our stuff is much, much easier to install than most certified avionics! Our incredibly detailed install manuals help as well.

Now, to get to some more specific issues:

1) We are really proud of our map. It has all the features you would expect, and some that aren't so standard in experimental EFIS systems such as the ability to have a pointer and point at an airport or airspace to get more information. You can create user waypoints, filter airspaces and airports you don't care about, store and load flight plans, etc. It even tells you airport pattern altitudes, full AFD text, and if they have fuel on site! It's an awesome VFR map, and one I used to fly from Seattle to Oshkosh with basically no pre-planning since everything I could need is in the plane. Just hop in and go.

Dynon also makes and sells our own ADS-B receiver. This gets you full weather and traffic on the map. We even do time-based traffic collision alerts for ADS-B traffic, with a visual and audible callout. Nexrad, METARS, TAFS, etc on the weather side.

2) Neither Dynon or GRT do a "sectional map display" if I am reading that correctly. I interpret that as showing the FAA sectionals on the screen, with your plane shown in the correct location. However, this is going to be in Dynon's next SkyView software release. We'll have sectionals. IFR HI, IFR LO, and TACs. This data will come from Seattle Avionics, and will be $99 a year for all sectionals, approach plates, airport diagrams, and Flight Guide diagrams. Less than an annual ForeFlight subscription!

3) SkyView has a very powerful integrated map, which can be used to drive your TruTrak. However, if you are really on a budget, or want more features, I suggest selling the TruTrak and going with Dynon's excellent integrated autopilot. For $1500 you get a two axis autopilot that can fly a full approach for you. Altitude changes, vertical speed and IAS holds, etc. The servos will drop right into your current TruTrak brackets, and the same wiring can be used.

4) SkyView can use all your wiring and sensors for your GRT EIS. You will need to buy our EMS-220 module to "listen" to these sensors, but no work through the firewall should be needed.

5) Dynon makes our own awesome COM radio. This radio is really unique in that it integrates with the database in SkyView. The radio has "TWR", "ATIS", and "GND" buttons on it. Just tell it you are flying to KPAE, and press "ATIS to hear ATIS, TWR to talk to the tower, and then GND when you land. It makes using the radio so much easier. Even if you manually tune something, it comes up and says "KSEA APPR" so you know you chose the right frequency. I fly around Seattle all the time, and while my plane has two COM radios, I never use the second com since ours works so well. SkyView will happily support two of these radios if you want, or you can keep the 300XL as a backup.

Finally, we made our COM with its own control panel, with frequency, volume, and other buttons, as well as a display. Other EFIS systems require you to go into menus to tune or change volume because the radio is fully remote, and we didn't think that was appropriate for something as critical as your COM radio. The COM will also continue to work if the EFIS fails.

6) Dynon pioneered the idea of an integrated transponder in the EFIS a few years ago. We have a fully certified Mode-S transponder with ADS-B out, and we sell and support the transponder ourselves. It is small, affordable, easy to install, and fully 2020 compliant.

7) I do agree that $10K will be tight, but here's a quick estimate from what I see your needs as:

10" D1000 Display, with all wiring, mapping, GPS antenna: $4,300
AHRS: $1,200
EMS module: $600
Transponder: $2,200
Com Radio: $1,300
Network wires: $100

Total: $9,700

If you want our ADS-B module, that is an additional $1,000.

Sell that TruTrak for $2,000 and get our servos for $1,500 and you are at $10,200!

Hope all of this is helpful. Please give us a call, we'd love to talk to you more and help you with your decision.

--Ian Jordan
Chief Systems Architect, Dynon Avioncs

Thanks for all that info, Ian.

Wow!

jjhoneck said:

- 10"+ display
- Moving map navigation
- Sectional map display
- Must work with the Tru-Trak autopilot
- Must work with the existing GRT engine monitoring probes
- Synthetic vision
- Dual com capability.
- Integrated transponder

Given these parameters, what do I need to buy?

I know these questions will probably spur more questions, and I'll bet there are strong feelings in favor of both systems, but I'm here to learn! Anyone want to take a swing at this on a fine Christmas day eve?

Click to expand...

Hi Jay,

Here's a quick rundown of what I'd do-- it's really pretty simple.

10.4" HXr, which includes the AHRS, magnetometer, all your wiring harnesses, with no need to buy anything else-- $5,650. Wires to your EIS with one wire - and you will love the color Graphical Engine Display.

Optional GRT GPS unit for $275 (your 300XL can also be used for this)

A remote Trig TT22 transponder kit for HXr for $2200.

If you'd like--Pick a remote radio, such as the PS-Engineering M760REM, the Val Avionics COM2KR, or the new Trig TY91 with built-in intercom. We don't manufacture radios-- we let the people who specialize in radios manufacture them, and we partner with them. That way you can pick the features and pricing you want. $1,200-1,700

Optional PS-Engineering PAC15EX- $1400 - gives you a high-quality remote intercom/audio panel with controls through the HXr.

Keep your 300XL and your TruTrak autopilot. The HXr works wonderfully with both units, saving you wiring, time and money. In time, you might want to add an ADS-B receiver. We work with SkyRadar, Dual, iLevil, and FreeFlight. These can be installed anytime.

If you did want to go with one radio, you could save some money by selling the 300XL, skipping the PAC15EX, and buying a Trig TY91 remote com that can monitor the standby frequency and also has a built-in intercom.

Because your wife is also a pilot, if you have the HX or HXr, you can use our free GRT Remote Bluetooth App on your Android phone or tablet, so whoever is in the back seat can remotely tune any radio that's wired to the HXr, as well as enter & edit flight plans... The app is finished and will be released after the 1st. The flight planning portion integrates with the radio tuning, so it will give you a list of all the frequencies along your flight path. It's pretty sweet.

The 8.4" Sport system for $3200, including SV and internal GPS, is also a very budget-conscious EFIS option. It has enough capability to fly IFR if you want it to, and will also integrate with your existing EIS with connection of one wire, giving you a full-screen or partial-screen full color engine suite. It will take GPS and VOR/ILS information from your 300XL. It has limited support of remote radios (frequency setting) and will soon support full remote Trig transponder control. It is slated for Bluetooth (GRT App) capability, but I'm not sure when.

Our U.S. nav database is free, our mapping is free, and we post our updates as soon as we get them. We do have a free option for FAA approach plates on the HX and HXr, but I can say we will have a big announcement coming very soon regarding charts, so don't make any decisions based on that quite yet.

Definitely talk with Stein and Aerotronics, as well as others in Texas that can help you with putting your panel together as suggested on this thread. They do this for people every day and they are very good at what they do.

GRT is a small company. We don't feel the need to proclaim to be the leader of the industry all the time. Truth is, as long as we can give homebuilders great products and support while making a living, we're comfortable right where we are. Out of our 7 full time employees, 4 of us are pilots and active homebuilders. We do this because we are passionate about building and flying experimental airplanes and the people who share our hobby. Greg literally started our company in his basement over 20 years ago after working as an avionics engineer on FMS projects for the 737, among other airplanes. He has built over 22,000 of those admittedly ugly little EIS boxes... They are flying in all types of airplanes with many types of engines from auto conversions to two strokes to radials to jets! And we've built and delivered several thousand EFIS systems over the last 10 years. Because we're a small company, there are times like this past week where support might be thin, but as our great customers have proven again, you always have a bunch of knowledgeable GRT fans here on VAF or on our own forum willing to jump in and take up the slack! But, because we're small, we have low overhead expenses and great stability. We know many of our customers by name. Because we're passionate, we can also be found online checking our emails and VAF during family holidays. We love this stuff, and will always do what we can to help you.

A GRT EIS doesn't have to be an ugly little box

Mount it behind the panel with cutouts for the buttons, label it like the rest. One serial wire will display the data on the EFIS, so the EIS becomes a full time fuel totalizer....no more inflight button pushing.



I hear Dynon stuff is pretty good. My GRT gear has been great.

Disclaimer: I have GRT stuff and am a very happy customer.

You asked about keeping your GDL-39 adsb box. As far as I know this only "plays" with the Garmin iPad or tablet ap. Neither Dynon nor GRT can "play" with it. I'd say keep it, and have two tablets; or sell it and buy one of the adsb receivers (remote mount) that simultaneously send signals hard wired to the GRT efis up front, and wirelessly to the tablet in back. (I think you'd need to swap the ap to WingX).

BTW, the bluetooth connection to the rear seat may be the tie-breaker here, since your back seater is a pilot. Check with GRT, but I think the tablet can display the flight instruments so she could practice under the hood from the back, if so inclined.

Finally, all this stuff is great, but you could buy avgas instead. The color bars for engine instruments are nice, but in practice I lean to fuel flow most of the time. The EIS may be ugly (not to me!) but it will alarm if anything gets out of the preset parameter range. Get a hand held com and wire it to an external antenna for ATIS and backup, and a second tablet for wx and moving map, and you're good to go for your vfr mission. (you understand that with just the Garmin 300 you cannot legally fly ifr.). Exception to what I just said: if you fly vfr on dark nights then get an efis. I consider them more reliable than a vacuum pump!

With either system you won't go wrong.

In my case I studied the options for more than a year before deciding on the DYNON Skyview. Now, after more than 9mo of flying with the panel, I really believe I made the right decision. I am more than pleased with how the panel came out and its functionality.

I did mine in Houston (KDWH) with MB Company doing all the metal work. I used the FastStack system for the interconnectivity and did most of the work with the help of a young AF Avionics guy who would get under the panel when needed.

Here is a link to my web page that documents the entire process:

http://www.puertoricoflyer.com/instrument_panel.html

With this bias in mind, I highly recommend the DYNON Skyview.

PS; If you do it right, you will spend a little more than $10,000 when everything is said and done.

I used both in my 8a, if you look at the lower right panel the EIS fits perfect.

Jay,

As long as you’re getting lots of attention today….why not get the best of both worlds? With AFS you get the small company with excellent personalized support that we’ve provided for over ten years, but is now owned and backed by Dynon, the industry leader.




The AF-5000 EFIS systems give you the compatibility with your existing GRT EIS Engine monitor and TruTrak Autopilot, plus the ability to interface to the innovative Dynon Skyview network modules.

The AF-5000 EFIS has an incredibly intuitive user interface thanks to its 18 buttons, three knobs and joy stick, eliminating many of the sub-menus found in other systems. Add our optional touch-screen and it gets even easier to use. The touch-screen also provides an extremely durable layer of protection to the EFIS LCD screen with chemically hardened AR coated glass.

Here is a link to our system Pricing and Planning Worksheet:
http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Pricing/AF-5000%20System%20Planning%20Diagram%20and%20Price%20List%20Rev%203.pdf

The AF-5600 10.4" EFIS with ADAHRS is $5,600

For under $10,000 you can get a complete system including the Mode S Transponder and the new Dynon radio. The AF-5000 systems all have geo-referenced approach plates, airport diagrams, VFR sectionals, and IFR charts.

We also have a remote NAV radio and remote audio panel with IntelliVox stereo intercom


If you would like to discuss the options and pricing give us a call, we are in the office and ready to help.
(503) 263-0037

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
N402RH RV-10

updated panel

A couple of thoughts....
A shop I visited last week has been sending their panel design to a CA company that does a computer CNC model in software. Then they produce one in clear plexi... and send it to you. You check it for fit... and modifications that you did not think of. (mark it up with a sharpie for changes )You send it back and they CNC the metal panel. They laser etch all the placards and labels... finish the panel in the color you choose from the powder coat samples. When you get it back... it all fits down to the fraction of a millimeter... even the nut plates and screw holes. Can get you the name if you want.
I just did a Sandia mode C transponder in the 9A. It fit in a space that looked useless. Has built in encoder and is all digital. Low current draw and measured 997 watts effective radiated power on a military friend/foe tester.
My Dynon gives my wife and I a clear view of every engine parameter we would like to know... including data downloads when desired. Others here will no doubt help you fill in a good list of avionics to fit the budget. Cheers.

flightlogic said:

Low current draw and measured 997 watts effective radiated power on a military friend/foe tester.
.

Click to expand...

The Sandia is a 200W nominal output unit. This is spec'd as peak power though not ERP (there is no ERP spec.) Fun with numbers.

Walt, you are exactly right. The RF pwr is rated at 200. I rarely get to see a $60,000 Aeroflex tester actually working... and on my plane to boot. It is inservice for F18's etc. out of SOCAL military sites. It had a readout of encoder error... which was 10ft. total, right out of the box, with no calibration. And also showed the effective radiated power, so that is why I impressed everyone here with the massive power!

Wow! You've gotten a ton of advice on what to install. But what about who installs it? I'll echo what others have said about Stein. If you want someone that knows how to upgrade panels in RVs, it's hard to beat Steinair........ except maybe for Redline. If Stein is too busy right now, consider Jon Thocker at Redline. Ask Stein, he'll agree, Jon has worked closely with him on several panel upgrades. And he may be able to come and pick it up and fly it to his shop for the upgrade. He's done that before too. As the Dynon rep says, you can probably get it done for close to your $10K price, but you'll be doing the work. If you hire it done, you might as well get the best in the business in RV panel upgrades. It'll save you money in the long run. Steinair or Redline - they're both excellent.

flightlogic said:

Walt, you are exactly right. The RF pwr is rated at 200. I rarely get to see a $60,000 Aeroflex tester actually working... and on my plane to boot. It is inservice for F18's etc. out of SOCAL military sites. It had a readout of encoder error... which was 10ft. total, right out of the box, with no calibration. And also showed the effective radiated power, so that is why I impressed everyone here with the massive power!

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Sandia does make excellent equipment. My aeroflex tester measures power output as ERP as well (the civilian version costs a little less than the mil spec model!).
I'm not really sure what they were measuring but the FAA spec for transponders is 125-500W ERP. Output power is not allowed to exceed 500W ERP.
I'd have to fail you on the xpdr test with that much power

10 grand is a lot of money to spend to save money in the long run. i would rather read that you get a perfect job and you are ready to fly.

Wow! Thanks, everyone, for the great (and, as expected, often conflicting) advice!

I really, really, REALLY like the remote radio tuning via Android app from the back seat. When we bought our plane, we had the back cockpit outfitted with throttle and rudder pedals, so that we wouldn't feel totally helpless (I've actually landed our -8A from the back cockpit) -- but without a way to tune the radio, we would be screwed if the front-seater became incapacitated in controlled airspace.

I really, REALLY like the idea of being able to stash my EIS behind the panel, connect one wire, and have a modern engine monitor display. Several people have recommended that I do that as a "half step" and simply add that display (called the "Sport", I think?), a new digital transponder, a second PS Engineering com radio (the one with built-in audio panel, so I could keep my other com), and call it a day.

Obviously that would save us huge bucks over replacing everything.

We still would end up hating the GNC-300XL GPS, though. I could live with that, but listening to Mary complain about it on every flight is starting to wear me down.

Jeez. Nothing like too many options. "Analysis paralysis" is setting in!

jjhoneck said:

Wow! Thanks, everyone, for the great (and, as expected, often conflicting) advice!



I really, REALLY like the idea of being able to stash my EIS behind the panel, connect one wire, and have a modern engine monitor display. Several people have recommended that I do that as a "half step" and simply add that display (called the "Sport", I think?), a new digital transponder, a second PS Engineering com radio (the one with built-in audio panel, so I could keep my other com), and call it a day.

Obviously that would save us huge bucks over replacing everything.

We still would end up hating the GNC-300XL GPS, though. I could live with that, but listening to Mary complain about it on every flight is starting to wear me down.

Jeez. Nothing like too many options. "Analysis paralysis" is setting in!

Click to expand...

I flew behind my 300XL for several years and grew quiet fond of it actually. Once you learn how to enter flight plans and select approaches it becomes second nature. I did that and the route and approach was displayed on the GRT EFIS and off I went. It has a lot of information in it about the airports and route. Just dig in a bit and it will serve you well. I had an ARINC module and an MD41 annunciator panel and it was a great, legal, IFR GPS that played really well with the GRT stuff, which I highly recommend, by the way.

Since you are restricted to vfr only, you will quickly learn to use the moving map on whatever EFIS you buy, and the GNC 300 will just be used to supply a position. You'll never touch the gps side again.

In fact, since the 300XL is a TSO'd box, it is worth more than what you use it for. You could remove it and sell it; replace with a com, and a 'hidden' gps from your EFIS company; and have a few dollars left over.

BobTurner said:

Since you are restricted to vfr only, you will quickly learn to use the moving map on whatever EFIS you buy, and the GNC 300 will just be used to supply a position. You'll never touch the gps side again.

In fact, since the 300XL is a TSO'd box, it is worth more than what you use it for. You could remove it and sell it; replace with a com, and a 'hidden' gps from your EFIS company; and have a few dollars left over.

Click to expand...

Yep, if you ever decide to do IFR you may wish you had that TSO'ed GNC 300 back in the panel. Keep it and interface it with an EFIS as others have suggested.

Sam Buchanan said:

Yep, if you ever decide to do IFR you may wish you had that TSO'ed GNC 300 back in the panel. Keep it and interface it with an EFIS as others have suggested.

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Of course, they'll need to add a VOR receiver, too, if they want ifr capability.
Add up the used value of the 300, plus a nav receiver, and you're nearly half way to a new GTNxxx. If ifr is in the future (and personally I think it's a worthy goal) then there are lots more decisions to be made, including flight instrument backups, etc.

Okay, now I'm really confused. lol

I had pretty much convinced myself to go with the GRT Horizon HXr -- and then someone mentioned the "Sport".

So, I moseyed on over to the GRT website, thinking that the "Sport" was nothing but an improved display for my GRT engine information system. Then, I clicked on the link, and whoah! -- the "Sport" is a full-blown EFIS.

So...Katie...can you please run through the differences between the Sport SX and the Horizon? The Sport seems to do EVERYTHING I need, and at a better price -- which makes me suspicious that I must be missing something.

Can I put the Sport SX in my plane, plugged into my GRT EIS, and get the functionality I'm looking for? Thanks!

Yes you can, I had it in my 8a and it worked great.

Tim 8-A said:

Yes you can, I had it in my 8a and it worked great.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Tim.

How is it different from the Horizon? (Other than the 8.4" vs 10" screen?)

jjhoneck said:

Can I put the Sport SX in my plane, plugged into my GRT EIS, and get the functionality I'm looking for? Thanks!

Click to expand...

Basically the answer is yes.

The Sport does not have all the bells and whistles as the HXR, but it will give you a pretty big bang for your bucks.

Read the specs carefully and talk to GRT or Stein about the differences.

Welcome to fly behind SV

If you would like to see a panel or fly behind a 10" SV with a com, adsb, transponder, true tract AP and Seattle charts. I'm located at 53T.

Send me a message or email

David

Have you considered the GRT Mini series?

Hi Jay:

Since you mission is strictly VFR . . .

Have you checked out these links from GRT:

http://www.grtavionics.com/efis101.html

http://www.grtavionics.com/choosing.html

http://www.grtavionics.com/mini.html

For $9400 you could get an HXr up front, the GRT A/P servos, an OAT probe, the ability to connect to your engine instruments, and if you can do it, install a Mini-AP for your wife in the rear cockpit.

The Mini-AP would give your wife a full EFIS and ability to control all A/P functions.

I am not sure how doable the Mini is in the rear, you can at least put an adroid tablet back there so she can talk to the HXr up front, change routes, tune radios, or have an ADI.

Deleting the mini changes the price tag to 7300 which includes the GRT A/P servos.

You can sell your TT a/p, along with all the steam gauges. Nothing against the TT A/P but if you are going for the HXr or the Mini-AP, you might as well have a really clean panel and control the A/P from the EFIS.

Katie and Ben @ GRT are very knowledgeable, easy to work with, and can help you a lot.

I think their office is closed till 01/02, but I'd give them a call.

Stein is also a great resource.

KatieB said:

Hi Jay,

Here's a quick rundown of what I'd do-- it's really pretty simple.

10.4" HXr, which includes the AHRS, magnetometer, all your wiring harnesses, with no need to buy anything else-- $5,650. Wires to your EIS with one wire - and you will love the color Graphical Engine Display.

Optional GRT GPS unit for $275 (your 300XL can also be used for this)

A remote Trig TT22 transponder kit for HXr for $2200.

If you'd like--Pick a remote radio, such as the PS-Engineering M760REM, the Val Avionics COM2KR, or the new Trig TY91 with built-in intercom. We don't manufacture radios-- we let the people who specialize in radios manufacture them, and we partner with them. That way you can pick the features and pricing you want. $1,200-1,700

Optional PS-Engineering PAC15EX- $1400 - gives you a high-quality remote intercom/audio panel with controls through the HXr.

Keep your 300XL and your TruTrak autopilot. The HXr works wonderfully with both units, saving you wiring, time and money. In time, you might want to add an ADS-B receiver. We work with SkyRadar, Dual, iLevil, and FreeFlight. These can be installed anytime.

If you did want to go with one radio, you could save some money by selling the 300XL, skipping the PAC15EX, and buying a Trig TY91 remote com that can monitor the standby frequency and also has a built-in intercom.

Because your wife is also a pilot, if you have the HX or HXr, you can use our free GRT Remote Bluetooth App on your Android phone or tablet, so whoever is in the back seat can remotely tune any radio that's wired to the HXr, as well as enter & edit flight plans... The app is finished and will be released after the 1st. The flight planning portion integrates with the radio tuning, so it will give you a list of all the frequencies along your flight path. It's pretty sweet.

The 8.4" Sport system for $3200, including SV and internal GPS, is also a very budget-conscious EFIS option. It has enough capability to fly IFR if you want it to, and will also integrate with your existing EIS with connection of one wire, giving you a full-screen or partial-screen full color engine suite. It will take GPS and VOR/ILS information from your 300XL. It has limited support of remote radios (frequency setting) and will soon support full remote Trig transponder control. It is slated for Bluetooth (GRT App) capability, but I'm not sure when.

Our U.S. nav database is free, our mapping is free, and we post our updates as soon as we get them. We do have a free option for FAA approach plates on the HX and HXr, but I can say we will have a big announcement coming very soon regarding charts, so don't make any decisions based on that quite yet.

Definitely talk with Stein and Aerotronics, as well as others in Texas that can help you with putting your panel together as suggested on this thread. They do this for people every day and they are very good at what they do.

GRT is a small company. We don't feel the need to proclaim to be the leader of the industry all the time. Truth is, as long as we can give homebuilders great products and support while making a living, we're comfortable right where we are. Out of our 7 full time employees, 4 of us are pilots and active homebuilders. We do this because we are passionate about building and flying experimental airplanes and the people who share our hobby. Greg literally started our company in his basement over 20 years ago after working as an avionics engineer on FMS projects for the 737, among other airplanes. He has built over 22,000 of those admittedly ugly little EIS boxes... They are flying in all types of airplanes with many types of engines from auto conversions to two strokes to radials to jets! And we've built and delivered several thousand EFIS systems over the last 10 years. Because we're a small company, there are times like this past week where support might be thin, but as our great customers have proven again, you always have a bunch of knowledgeable GRT fans here on VAF or on our own forum willing to jump in and take up the slack! But, because we're small, we have low overhead expenses and great stability. We know many of our customers by name. Because we're passionate, we can also be found online checking our emails and VAF during family holidays. We love this stuff, and will always do what we can to help you.

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Hi Katie,

Thanks for the VERY comprehensive response. I am leaning toward the Sport, which would leave money to install a Mini in the back cockpit!

Can you recommend any avionics shops in South Texas that are familiar with your line of products? There seem to be lots of them in North Texas, but I'm not aware of any down this-away.

Thanks again!