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IO-360-A1A Cold Cylinder Past Idle

drone_pilot

Well Known Member
Today when running my engine, the #4 CHT and EGT matched the other cylinders at idle. When running the RPM up to around 1100, the #4 CHT and EGT drop off to basically nothing. Pulling the throttle back to idle the #4 CHT and EGT come back to normal temps along with the other cylinders. The engine is very rough when the temps drop off so very clear the #4 isn't firing.

The only thing I can think of is a clogged #4 injector. Does this sound correct?

With all of the fuel filters, etc, what would clog an injector?
 
In the order I'd trouble shoot:
- Ignition, harness and spark plugs
- Stuck exhaust valve
- Bad/dirty injector
- Spider crud problem

Carl
 
I don't think it's a sensor as the motor is running rough and both EGT and CHT sensors on the same cylinder are affected by low readings that would correspond to a dead cylinder.
 
Simple first.

It could be something complicated, but it is easy enough to check that injector, then move to more complicated possibilities. Still thinking fuel, the spider could have a speck in it too. Might have to measure some flow on the injectors too - just to complete the "low fuel" possibility .

Hard to think both mags are weak on the same cylinder or one bad plug and bad mag on the other.

Please post your findings.
 
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Okay. I couldn't stand it so went out to airport to check the injector. One thing I forgot to mention is that it's a new build, so it hasn't run but a couple of hours.

I removed the tube at the divider for cylinder #4 and got a cup full of fuel when running the boost pump. I removed the tube at the injector and got another cup full of fuel. I removed the injector and found it was plugged. Took a fine piece of safety wire and ran thru the injector. It appeared to be a few particles of black rubber fuel hose, which makes sense because a guy at the airport made me a fuel hose from the mechanical pump to the servo. There are so many filters in the line that I don't know of another source that it could have come from.

Since I found debris in the injector, I went back to the flow divider and took it apart. Sure enough, two more small particles of what appears to be black rubber. I ran fuel thru the divider while disassembled after removing the particles. I blew the injector and flow divider regulator stem (whatever it's called....the part connected to the diaphragm) with compressed air and verified all was clean before reassembling. I ran out of time but I am going to remove the other three injectors and verify that they are not contaminated as well. The injectors are tiny and it doesn't take much to plug them.

I did fuel flow testing about two weeks ago so I am also wondering if I got some crud in the lines while disassembled. I'll be watching carefully for a while to make sure everything stays clean.
 
I've never had an injected engine, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that you should never run a wire through an injector. Is this correct, or am I "mis-remembering"?? :confused:
 
Correct

I've never had an injected engine, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that you should never run a wire through an injector. Is this correct, or am I "mis-remembering"?? :confused:
According to Lycoming, you are correct:

http://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Cleaning Fuel Injector Nozzles.pdf

Lycoming said:
CAUTION
Never use a sharp tool such as a wire or pin to clean out a nozzle. Damage to the inlet and outlet fuel restrictors could result which would change the fuel flow.
Do not immerse packing rings, at any time, into the cleaning fluid. The rings may swell.
 
Probably OK, but cautions apply . . .

Personally, I would deem it acceptable for discharge of obvious plugging debris, but never to do a routine cleaning for accumulated varnish.The wire end should be rounded from the cut, smaller than the orifice, and straight. Don't ram it back an forth. I have very tiny drill bits ( primarily for acetylene torch tips) and use the dull end, and don't force it. Skill and common sense applies, as with many delicate operations.
 
This sort of debris is common on new builds. It should be the first thing checked if a cylinder goes cold.
 
The Lycoming article states

"Fuel nozzles can become clogged with a type of varnish from old fuel or from precipitate particles that are almost invisible to the naked eye."

This was a very obvious plug that I had. I don't believe any of the solvents mentioned would have broken it down except possibly the MEK as it melts almost everything.

I think they are talking about using a wire to scrape varnish etc from the injector walls based on the type of contamination they mention above. The wire I used was smaller gauge than the injector and was used to carefully push debris out (which dislodged without much effort) rather than scraping the walls of the injector. I used compressed air after that and verified clean.
 
This sort of debris is common on new builds. It should be the first thing checked if a cylinder goes cold.

Likewise if one cylinder goes hot - indicating lean operation while the engine should be running rich.
 
drone_pilot;1136957 It appeared to be a few particles of black rubber fuel hose said:
Are you saying you made engine hoses and did not carefully flush them before use? If so, recommend pulling them and commence cleaning all the crud out of the fuel and oil systems.

Carl
 
Are you saying you made engine hoses and did not carefully flush them before use? If so, recommend pulling them and commence cleaning all the crud out of the fuel and oil systems.

Carl

You are right about pre-cleaning the hoses and lines. I learned a trick from a high production hydraulics facility. They used a plug of foam to blow through the hoses/lines to dislodge attached debris. I use old foam ear plugs. Just roll to the right size and use compressed air to force them through. A little lighter fluid/coleman fuel or mineral spirits helps too. Not much, just enough to dampen the plug as it moves through. Do it 2-3 times and even a new plug will come out clean.

A little late for the OP, but for future reference.
 
You are right about pre-cleaning the hoses and lines. I learned a trick from a high production hydraulics facility. They used a plug of foam to blow through the hoses/lines to dislodge attached debris. I use old foam ear plugs. Just roll to the right size and use compressed air to force them through. A little lighter fluid/coleman fuel or mineral spirits helps too. Not much, just enough to dampen the plug as it moves through. Do it 2-3 times and even a new plug will come out clean.

A little late for the OP, but for future reference.

We should have a "Tip of the Day" section. This is an excellent idea. I flush with suitable solvent and air and have never had a problem, but this method would insure "attached debris" would go along for the ride out.

For the OP, I would suggest a complete flush of all you downstream fuel lines and filter. I am shocked that anything that size could make it past the servo filter. That is what that filter is for and this shouldn't happen. It makes me wonder about the source of the contamination.
 
I am shocked that anything that size could make it past the servo filter. That is what that filter is for and this shouldn't happen. It makes me wonder about the source of the contamination.

I agree with this. Is it possible that the contamination is coming from the hose between the servo and the flow divider? Also look to the servo itself as a possible source of contamination. Is it a new or newly overhauled servo?

Skylor
 
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Okay, here is more detail along with what I think happened.

Its a new build. Not flown yet. Another point is that it is a used engine that was removed from a Mooney along with all FW fwd accessories. I have no clue of how they cared for the engine prior to my purchase other than what they told me and what the logbooks showed. It had the appearance of cleanliness, but.......Also, after some contemplation I did have the engine torn down and sent the crank off for inspection as it was purchased as a low time engine with a "light" prop strike. I chose to do this after purchasing even though an A&P signed off the engine with proper ADs (accessory case gears replaced, etc) and airworthy, the crank was only mic'd for runout. In other words, I'm thinking that its also possible things got contaminated in sloppy handling at some point. Wouldn't have happened with me doing it myself but other hands handled this engine before me and it may have been handled by someone, in a bad mood, on a Monday, whose favorite grandma got run over by a reindeer, and he had dirty hands. I really don't have any way of knowing.

I explained earlier that a hose was made by a mechanic at the airport. Additionally, the mechanic installed the hose for me as I didn't mention that earlier (I don't like to point fingers). The hose is located where there is no filter before the flow divider. I feel that debris was not cleared completely from the hose and then the hose was installed and got rubber debris/cuttings into the system. I've now pumped several gallons of AvGas through the system and got no more contamination. Likewise, I disassembled and verified no more contamination visually both at flow divider and injector nozzles.

I suspect the debris made its way into the flow divider at first startup and has been sitting there up until now. The debris finally made its way to the injector nozzle and plugged it after then engine was run a little more. Enough fuel was passing thru the plugged nozzle for the engine to develop CHT and EGT at idle. When the throttle was advanced, no additional fuel could flow and the cylinder could not keep up thus went cold until the throttle was closed back to idle. I also noticed a slight rise in idle RPMs. I'm not an engine expert by any means but that is my diagnosis.

After cleaning everything up, I started engine and it is now running better than it ever has. When the engine was started for the first time, we fought lean/rich mixture issues and general roughness for several days before getting things running to what I thought was supposed to be normal/acceptable. At that, the mixture seemed to be high maintenance at various throttle settings but others who had injected engines told me it was pretty normal for our altitude (3600'). I've never flown behind an injected engine so okay, guess they are higher maintenance to run....I could build full power etc, but just had to be on the mixture right behind the throttle to keep things running well.

Since cleaning and running afterwards, the mixture now acts MUCH more to what I am accustomed. The cylinder temps are more even along with EGTs much more than what I thought was normal for my engine. Thus, this supports my theory that the debris set in my flow divider since first startup and was affecting even flow to the injector nozzles causing EGTs and CHTs that were more uneven. I would never have opened up the flow divider had a nozzle not plugged up. I'm glad I did!

Lessons Learned (Again, I'm no expert but I am learning!)

1) Don't trust cleanliness of any fuel system hoses until you inspect them with your own eyes. Keep them clean and install them yourself. I trusted that the guy who built my hose verified cleanliness. I'm not positive that I would have been able to catch the debris visually but I can admit that I didn't check for it which is not a good thing.

2) It would be beneficial, to pump a gallon or two of fuel through the system up to the end of the hose prior to the flow divider and prior to first run. After that, hook things up to the flow divider. You have a much better quality benchmark of how things were done and where they stand.

3) Don't be shy to run your engine on the ground. This is one thing I do feel I did right and also feel it saved me from what could have possibly been a really bad flying day. There is a safe way to do this without harming your engine. I ran mine every week or two much to the jokes from others about "driving it around on the ground" rather than flying. I wanted confidence in my machine and look what I found! I'm not happy that I found debris, but thrilled that I found it while "driving on the ground"!! Its much better to correct the problem now rather than to experience it in the air. Much less adrenaline is involved. :) I feel it is clean now and although I have confidence, I will be checking things again in a couple of hours to verify that the problem is completely resolved.

4) If you purchase a used engine with accessories as I did, take things apart with proper supervision and learn how it all works. Take the time to inspect it, clean it, and gather benchmarks on the overall quality and cleanliness of things. Like me, you only have others words to go by until you jump in and look closely for yourself. I trusted others too much and on some things I was plain ignorant.

5) If you're not hooking the engine up yourself, watch closely as it is being done. That is the one area that I did not watch closely. Its a fuel line! How hard would it have been to just undo it again and look in there for myself. Guys have handed me a rifle and told me that its unloaded. I still pull the chamber first thing and verify no bullets with my own eyes. Same applies here I think.

6) Just when you think you know it all, guess what?
 
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