Van's Air Force
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Beringer RV wheel/brake/tire set - first impressions
- Thread starter sbalmos
- Start date
grayforge
Well Known Member
Good thread on the Beringer system. Some notes/questions:
Too bad they're not good old standard American AN fittings.
Thanks!
Russ
- I didn't see torque specs for the banjo fittings in the RV manual, but did find them in one of the other manuals: 15 to 17 Nm or 130 - 150 in-lbs.
- I like the simplicity of the reservoirs mounted to the master cylinders. My kit is the remote mount version. Wonder what I'd need to go the direct mount route.
- Has anyone mounted the reservoirs remotely other than how Walt did his customer's (where they have a handy access panel)? If so... where did they mount them?
- Alternately, I still have my Vans reservoir mounted. I wonder how tough it'd be to find a fitting to go from a 1/8 NPT Y to whatever type of banjo fitting the system uses (or whatever 37 degree fittings that work with this system)?
- I wouldn't mind using the Vans plastic tubing for the reservoir to master cylinder lines. But not sure where to source fittings to go from compression on the tubing to banjo on the master cylinder.
Too bad they're not good old standard American AN fittings.
Thanks!
Russ
grayforge
Well Known Member
I wanted to use the stock reservoir but ended up mounting their units because (in case you have noticed yet) their plumbing is metric
Another thing to keep in mind is when they say the master cylinders must be level horizontally for bleeding they aren't kidding, you will not get the brakes bled unless you have the cylinders level (trust me I tried).
I neglected to take pictures of the install but next time the aircraft is available I will do this.
I will add the customer is very happy with the system operation
I've been setting my system up the past few days. I really like it, but wish the manual was much more detailed. I wonder if their fittings are now standard AN. I measured the angle on mine and they look to be 37 degrees. But oddly enough, the bulkhead fittings are 45.
grayforge
Well Known Member
I received a disconcerting response from Beringer Support about the 45 degree bulkhead fitting in combination with the other fittings, which are 37 degree versions:
Yikes! I am not going to use a 37 degree female fitting with a 45 degree male. I sent them a follow up email noting this concern.
Yikes! I am not going to use a 37 degree female fitting with a 45 degree male. I sent them a follow up email noting this concern.
sbalmos
Well Known Member
Reservoir mount
In most brake system installs, and also what I've seen in instructions, the outputs from the copilot's master cylinders are routed to the inlets of the pilot's master cylinders. Then the output from the pilot master cylinders are sent to the reservoirs. The inlet of the copilot master cylinders are what connect to the ALIR regulator.
Is there any reason why I couldn't do the output of the pilot left master cylinder to a reservoir, but connect over the output of the pilot right master cylinder to the copilot right master, then the output of the right copilot master to its reservoir? Thus, the left reservoir would be to the pilot side left pedal, and the right reservoir is to the the copilot side right pedal?
What I'm planning to do is bolt the reservoir arms to the top of the forward longeron-to-firewall corner gussets, with the reservoir itself sort of overhanging the top firewall stiffener. But I can only fit one reservoir on each side.
Anyone see anything wrong with this modified master cylinder line routing?
In most brake system installs, and also what I've seen in instructions, the outputs from the copilot's master cylinders are routed to the inlets of the pilot's master cylinders. Then the output from the pilot master cylinders are sent to the reservoirs. The inlet of the copilot master cylinders are what connect to the ALIR regulator.
Is there any reason why I couldn't do the output of the pilot left master cylinder to a reservoir, but connect over the output of the pilot right master cylinder to the copilot right master, then the output of the right copilot master to its reservoir? Thus, the left reservoir would be to the pilot side left pedal, and the right reservoir is to the the copilot side right pedal?
What I'm planning to do is bolt the reservoir arms to the top of the forward longeron-to-firewall corner gussets, with the reservoir itself sort of overhanging the top firewall stiffener. But I can only fit one reservoir on each side.
Anyone see anything wrong with this modified master cylinder line routing?
I like the idea but how do you plan to get to it to service the reservoir? I see you have a slider like I do. I still have most of mine in the box. Not sure where to mount everything. I was hoping somebody found a way to mount the reservoirs on the hot side of the firewall for easy access with the cowl off.
sbalmos
Well Known Member
I don't think there's ever a really good answer on that one. I'm still toying with the idea of some form of what Walt did for his customer, cutting access doors on the upper top skin. I don't think engine-side mounting is a good idea, because of the heat. Plus, that's just yet another set of penetrations through the firewall.
Walt
Well Known Member
Those access panels were already there, it's against my nature to cut big holes in skin!
Dbro172
Well Known Member
But if you are going to; the vans stall horn access panel kit provides a reasonable way to go about an access panel, fasteners and doubler. I installed two in the forward too skin.
sbalmos
Well Known Member
The other idea I might go with is to make a short crossbar out of some angle and bolt it to the rudder pedal center brace, using one of the unused rudder pedal mounting holes in the brace that you drill when you don't know how far forward/back you want the pedals. Then I'd bolt one reservoir to each side of the brace on the crossbar.
Either way, either location is really far back, and would require on-your-back access, like pretty much anything under the panel. I don't think that can be helped.
Either way, either location is really far back, and would require on-your-back access, like pretty much anything under the panel. I don't think that can be helped.
KJBSouth
Well Known Member
More Berringer photos and a question
Bought the Berringer wheel and brakes (PIC & PAX) kit just over a year ago. Just now getting ready to install the fluid lines.
Yesterday I laid out the parts other than the master cylinders and wheels.
The dual station install requires 14 of the banjos and bolts; I received ten.
Today I spoke with Vivienne and she is shipping the missing four sets tomorrow. Great customer service.
The fluid reservoirs are mounted on a channel tray fabbed from .032 stock.
There is a small dam forward of the reservoirs.
It is intended that any overflow during filling/bleeding will flow to the aft end of the channel where it can be caught.
The master cylinder hose fittings face forward on this install.
I want the hoses out of the way of my big feet.
In a previous post it was cautioned that the master cylinders needed to be horizontal during bleeding to get all air out of the system.
Have others found this to be true?
The left rudder cylinders can be made horizontal without detaching them from the pedals. The right side not so much.
If the pedals are pushed during bleeding, fully compressing the cylinders there is much less free space for trapped air.
Also, with the cylinders oriented springs up, the reservoir inlet is the upper connection on the cylinders.
Fluid pressured from the calipers during bleeding enters the bottom of the cylinders pushing air up and out through the reservoirs.
What have others experienced? Do I have to disassemble the right pedal/cylinder connection and make the cylinder horizontal?
Bought the Berringer wheel and brakes (PIC & PAX) kit just over a year ago. Just now getting ready to install the fluid lines.
Yesterday I laid out the parts other than the master cylinders and wheels.
The dual station install requires 14 of the banjos and bolts; I received ten.
Today I spoke with Vivienne and she is shipping the missing four sets tomorrow. Great customer service.
The fluid reservoirs are mounted on a channel tray fabbed from .032 stock.
There is a small dam forward of the reservoirs.
It is intended that any overflow during filling/bleeding will flow to the aft end of the channel where it can be caught.
The master cylinder hose fittings face forward on this install.
I want the hoses out of the way of my big feet.
In a previous post it was cautioned that the master cylinders needed to be horizontal during bleeding to get all air out of the system.
Have others found this to be true?
The left rudder cylinders can be made horizontal without detaching them from the pedals. The right side not so much.
If the pedals are pushed during bleeding, fully compressing the cylinders there is much less free space for trapped air.
Also, with the cylinders oriented springs up, the reservoir inlet is the upper connection on the cylinders.
Fluid pressured from the calipers during bleeding enters the bottom of the cylinders pushing air up and out through the reservoirs.
What have others experienced? Do I have to disassemble the right pedal/cylinder connection and make the cylinder horizontal?
Karl, could you post pics once you have run the brake fluid lines? I'm curious how well the rear-facing cylinders will work. I'm also not terribly pleased with how mine look front-facing.
Also curious how much space the adjustment unit has near the front where it is close to the fw bumpout. Mine was too close and I had to do all sorts of magic to find a spot for it.
Also curious how much space the adjustment unit has near the front where it is close to the fw bumpout. Mine was too close and I had to do all sorts of magic to find a spot for it.
grayforge
Well Known Member
I imagine your bulkhead fittings are like mine: Automotive type vs Aviation type like the rest of the fittings. I've been waiting for Beringer to source and send the right bulkhead fittings for over a year now. I'm not willing to mix 37 degree and 45 degree fittings.
Otherwise, the kit is very nice!
grayforge
Well Known Member
I just emailed them a few days ago. They say they are still waiting on their supplier.
I honestly doubt they're waiting on stock to deplete. Their supplier is likely slow in coming up with the proper design. I just wish they'd light a fire under the supplier. It seems unsat to continue selling incompatible fittings even though they haven't had any known problems with them so far.
I honestly doubt they're waiting on stock to deplete. Their supplier is likely slow in coming up with the proper design. I just wish they'd light a fire under the supplier. It seems unsat to continue selling incompatible fittings even though they haven't had any known problems with them so far.
Walt
Well Known Member
Just as an FYI, when I installed a set for a customer on an RV7A I just skipped the bulkhead fittings as ran the line direct to the caliper, I saw no reason for the fitting using the supplied flex line and the benefit is also 4 less possible leak points.
PS: I emailed Viviane (customer svc mgr at Beringer USA) and she confirmed they still have not recieved the correct fittings but are still working on it. Viviane is so sweet, even if you don't get what you want you will feel better just talking with her
PS: I emailed Viviane (customer svc mgr at Beringer USA) and she confirmed they still have not recieved the correct fittings but are still working on it. Viviane is so sweet, even if you don't get what you want you will feel better just talking with her
Walt
Well Known Member
I just used a plastic grommet and some RTV.
KJBSouth
Well Known Member
Photos of installed brake lines
The cabin side brake hose fab and install is complete. With the four master cylinders, two reservoirs and the ALIR anti-skid unit there is a total of eight hoses to make up. Getting the lengths right is hard. I made one hose way too long and cut off the excess and fitting. The banjo and nut can be reused, but the ferrule (Berringer calls it an olive) becomes trash. I ordered a few spares.
I found that when making up the lines it may be wise to tighten but allow for a half turn of the thread if necessary to get the banjo bolt easily started in its socket. Also, use the banjo's 20 degree offset to help point the hose in the direction you want it to go.
I held the hoses to the rudder cross bars with tie wraps, thinking I would later use lacing. I could not tie the lacing tight enough to prevent the hoses from slipping out of position. I added even more tie wraps than are shown in these photos.
Final result - pedal movement is free and clear with no rubbing or interference from the hoses.
The cabin side brake hose fab and install is complete. With the four master cylinders, two reservoirs and the ALIR anti-skid unit there is a total of eight hoses to make up. Getting the lengths right is hard. I made one hose way too long and cut off the excess and fitting. The banjo and nut can be reused, but the ferrule (Berringer calls it an olive) becomes trash. I ordered a few spares.
I found that when making up the lines it may be wise to tighten but allow for a half turn of the thread if necessary to get the banjo bolt easily started in its socket. Also, use the banjo's 20 degree offset to help point the hose in the direction you want it to go.
I held the hoses to the rudder cross bars with tie wraps, thinking I would later use lacing. I could not tie the lacing tight enough to prevent the hoses from slipping out of position. I added even more tie wraps than are shown in these photos.
Final result - pedal movement is free and clear with no rubbing or interference from the hoses.
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KJBSouth
Well Known Member
ALIR Clearance
During the install I had the firewall bump clecoed in place. The clearance to the ALIR unit was guestimated at 3/64ths.
The mounting plate for the ALIR has an offset. If the offset is toward the firewall, then the ALIR will not clear the bump.
During the install I had the firewall bump clecoed in place. The clearance to the ALIR unit was guestimated at 3/64ths.
The mounting plate for the ALIR has an offset. If the offset is toward the firewall, then the ALIR will not clear the bump.
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grayforge
Well Known Member
I finally received a corrected Bulkhead Brake Fitting solution from Beringer.
To review, the originals were combination hose-end/bulkhead fittings which nicely reduced the number of connections by one, but were 45 degree Automotive fittings. Beringer must not have been able to source the same type of fitting in Aircraft style (37 degrees). So they switched to a more standard, easily sourced solution: an AN Bulkhead fitting and separate AN Hose End fitting.
I measured these and found them to be the correct AN style.
Not the optimal solution, but a fine solution.
Old combo hose end/bulkhead automotive fitting on the left, new separate bulkhead and hose-end AN fittings on the right:
To review, the originals were combination hose-end/bulkhead fittings which nicely reduced the number of connections by one, but were 45 degree Automotive fittings. Beringer must not have been able to source the same type of fitting in Aircraft style (37 degrees). So they switched to a more standard, easily sourced solution: an AN Bulkhead fitting and separate AN Hose End fitting.
I measured these and found them to be the correct AN style.
Not the optimal solution, but a fine solution.
Old combo hose end/bulkhead automotive fitting on the left, new separate bulkhead and hose-end AN fittings on the right:
wirejock
Well Known Member
Install instructions
Reviving this thread.
Has anyone installed the Beringer Emergency/Parking Brake valve?
I see it has two mountingredients holes but the valve operates a full 180 degrees.
I can't see how it's supposed to work. Nothing in the Beringer install paperwork either.
Any tips appreciated.
Reviving this thread.
Has anyone installed the Beringer Emergency/Parking Brake valve?
I see it has two mountingredients holes but the valve operates a full 180 degrees.
I can't see how it's supposed to work. Nothing in the Beringer install paperwork either.
Any tips appreciated.
wirejock
Well Known Member
Nice. I looked at you're blog. Where are you mounting it?
How did you get around the ALIR hitting the firewall recess? I made a bracket to mount it to the F6118 Rudder Pedal Brace.
Where/How did you mount the reservoirs?
grayforge
Well Known Member
I mounted the bracket holding the parking brake to the firewall.
I went off the reservation a bit with the other bits. I am not currently planning to use the ALIR. Thousands of RVs have survived without one.
I just used the Vans reservoir and split the outlet to the 2 master cylinders.
You can just see the bottom of the parking brake & bracket here:
Here's the T coming out of the Vans reservoir. It's 1/8 NPT on one end, -3AN on the other 2.
I went off the reservation a bit with the other bits. I am not currently planning to use the ALIR. Thousands of RVs have survived without one.
I just used the Vans reservoir and split the outlet to the 2 master cylinders.
You can just see the bottom of the parking brake & bracket here:
Here's the T coming out of the Vans reservoir. It's 1/8 NPT on one end, -3AN on the other 2.
sbalmos
Well Known Member
I probably need to toss a few more emails Beringer's way, and visit them at their booth next week. But maybe a few of you others have already figured this out. What screw or banjo do you loosen to bleed air out of when charging the system? Your hand pump is connected to the bleed screw at the calipers. But I don't see another screw anywhere else - master cylinders, reservoirs, etc. The bleeding procedure in the manual shows another bleed screw on the old cylinder-mounted reservoirs and hand-brake-style master cylinder.
And actually, pictures I've seen of newer RV kits looks like the two output ports on the anti-lock regulator don't use banjo bolts, but banjo screws that you bleed air from at that end.
And actually, pictures I've seen of newer RV kits looks like the two output ports on the anti-lock regulator don't use banjo bolts, but banjo screws that you bleed air from at that end.
