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Practicing stall recovery, the fabled base to final turn with engine failure

eddieseve

Well Known Member
I did my BFR last Friday, as part of the review, Pete my instructor asked if I had ever practised a turning stall with in turn rudder to get it to come around faster.

Note in the video the stall warning sounds after we are pointing at the ground :(

This was a very sobering exercise, watch my attempt, I was taught to roll upright before pulling to the horizon, but the surprise catches me out even though I know it's going to happen. I then stall it again in my recovery by pulling a little too hard.

Also note, there is no spin, just strait down

https://www.facebook.com/eddie.seve/posts/1130016700399316/

Cheers
 
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THANKS

G'day Eddie,

Thanks for posting - very good demonstration of the skidding turn stall - instructor Pete was worth the $ & time. Stall warning was instructive too.

See also Vac's thread on RV training syllabi, performance & handling.

Someone competent please provide a link to Vac's thread.

Vac's latest draft is also on the Sports Aircraft Association of Australia (SAAA) member's (only) forum under Flying Training - you would need a log-in.

Best regards
 
Turn stall

Eddie,

That was an outstanding demonstration. Your instructor is correct, this may lead to some of the unfortunate outcomes we've all read in accident reports. And not just with engine failures, normal patterns for those without any type of stall warning system. A little bit of overshooting wind, trying to crank it around to line up, kick a little rudder to help and there it is.....

You may have just saved someone's bacon today by posting this video. I think your instructor deserves a round of his favorite beverage!

Well done,
Oly
 
excellent instruction

This is worth a sticky thread in the safety category. Very eye opening departure that the wing makes, without warning. I don't see most RV's here in the states with stall warning, not that it did anything to prevent these cross controlled stalls. I wish you tube movies could be saved to a hard drive. This one would be in my syllabus as a CFII.
 
The instructor makes a great point that if this were to happen in a right turn, the stall warning / AOA might not indicate a danger! If the right wing stalls and your pitot / AOA probe is on the left wing...
 
... I wish you tube movies could be saved to a hard drive. This one would be in my syllabus as a CFII....

Go to your browser add-on page and look for "Download Flash and Video". I use it in Firefox and can download videos from YouTube, Facebook, etc. I downloaded and saved the video posted by the OP.

YMMV...
 
This is worth a sticky thread in the safety category. Very eye opening departure that the wing makes, without warning. I don't see most RV's here in the states with stall warning, not that it did anything to prevent these cross controlled stalls. I wish you tube movies could be saved to a hard drive. This one would be in my syllabus as a CFII.

Google "Keepvid" and use the YouTube link in the address field.
 
Eye opening! Anyone know if the -10 has the same characteristic?

Thanks for sharing.

Yes the RV-10 along with most all airplanes will have this characteristic, it’s an airplane thing not an RV thing, though the short wing RV’s might be quicker in the break then sum. Also on the video people have commented there was no warning, I practice these, if you do the same you will see there is warning, after a few you will know when it’s getting close and where it’s headed.

The video was a great demonstration and I agree with the instructor it has killed RV guys but it has also killed lots of GA pilots across the board, GA has been dealing with this accident scenario long before the RV arrived on the scene.
 
Russ,

Thank for the reply. This is certainly not something I practiced or ever did. I havnt flown in 10 years. I remember doing uncoordinated stalls but not during a turn. Is this maneuver safe to practice in a non acro airplane? Looked like a full roll on the video. Would diffeintely like to practice a base to final uncoordinated turn at a safe altitude of coarse.
 
Russ,

Thank for the reply. This is certainly not something I practiced or ever did. I havnt flown in 10 years. I remember doing uncoordinated stalls but not during a turn. Is this maneuver safe to practice in a non acro airplane? Looked like a full roll on the video. Would diffeintely like to practice a base to final uncoordinated turn at a safe altitude of coarse.

I would say probably yes for most non-aerobatic airplanes however please employ a properly qualified CFI to get you started, one well versed in stall spin recovery.
 
Eddie,
This may be the best video I have seen showing how so many people go in nose first trying the impossible turn. I agree with the other poster that said you may have saved someones bacon today.

Hearing no stall warning - wow. As a pilot still working on my ticket that was an eye opener. I am installing two AOA systems on my plane but I did not install the Vans warning system. Maybe I need to rethink that.

The main thing this video showed me was if I have an problem on takeoff, if I can't see it out of the windscreen, it is not an option for me to land there. Maybe when I become a better pilot I will modify that but I have known 3 people that had thousands of hours that are not with us today trying to make the turn.

My first instructor drilled these words into every lesson. "Remember, the plane is only worth what your deductible is. "
 
So the key here to prevent this base to final stall is coordinated turn and watch airspeed.

I would think a close traffic base to final would have a higher risk. Worse if there is a crosswind pushing past centerline and over correcting. Definitely something to prevent and practice getting out of with minimal altitude loss. Curious how much altitude was lossed in the above video.
 
I think I heard the instructor mention amount of altitude lost... right at the end.
Of course he said it with an accent, so you will have to adjust for that.
 
Hi Guys,

Glad you all see this video of value.

When Pete my instructor demonstrated the stall, we lost 800ft.

When I demonstrated the same, we lost 1200ft due to the secondary stall that occurred due to me pulling to hard in the recovery and also because I never kept the roll going and pulled through from inverted.

Cheers
 
Great video. It brought back memories of my transition training in a -7A, and how little forward stick (if any) it took to recover from a stall. The first couple of times I tried, I did the Piper (Cherokee) Push and the aircraft went STRAIGHT DOWN. It really was a matter of just relaxing stick pressure. My -9A is a bit more forgiving, but that experience was priceless.

It's a good lesson to keep your pattern turns shallow and an eagle eye on AOA/airspeed. The critical turn/alignment issue is really downwind to base...getting this wrong can set up a base-to-final overshoot, or at the minimum, not enough time to get wings level on base to take a look around. And if you do overshoot base a little, don't rush to square it up with the runway immediately...let it flow out in sort of a question mark shape, and angle back toward the runway when wings are closer to level. Obviously easier said than done if there are complicating factors such as a parallel runway with nearby traffic.

Another pet peeve...climbing out on upwind without staying over the runway. Makes me nervous when I'm on the taxiway directly underneath a plane that's maybe 150' AGL.
 
Hi Eddie. Thanks for the great video. Is your Pitot/AoA mounted on the left wing in the regular position? Also do you, or does anyone else for that matter, think that having an AoA in both wings would better protect you (or at least provide a wake up call) from these uncoordinated scenarios? I am just about to close up my wings, so I thought now was as good a time as any, and I will have a g3x and a G5, so two instruments capable if taking AoA input.
Cheers,
Tom.
 
Hi Eddie. Thanks for the great video. Is your Pitot/AoA mounted on the left wing in the regular position? Also do you, or does anyone else for that matter, think that having an AoA in both wings would better protect you (or at least provide a wake up call) from these uncoordinated scenarios? I am just about to close up my wings, so I thought now was as good a time as any, and I will have a g3x and a G5, so two instruments capable if taking AoA input.
Cheers,
Tom.

Hi Tom

Pitot is on the left wing normal position, it's a Dynon pitot rather than the Van's tube.

I have no idea about your second question, hopefully someone more knowledgable will chime in


Cheers
 
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Outstanding demonstration. Descriptions are great but a demo is worth its weight in gold. Thanks for sharing Eddie.
 
What an excellent video. Your instructor is definitely worth the money you are spending on his pay.

If you can, just for a moment, imagine the poor soul who is flying his (her) spam can blithely along. (S)He's a relatively new pilot so has never done full spin training. (S)He certainly hasn't done unusual attitude / upset recover training. In fact, (s)he's never been in an airplane with a bank angle beyond 60 degrees.

Now just think of the PANIC that pilot will feel as his/her aircraft rolls inverted with the nose pointing at the ground. There is no instinctive reaction to continue the roll to wings-level because that person has never, ever rolled an airplane. It certainly doesn't take very much imagination to see that same pilot freezing at the controls, leading to a big smoking hole in the ground.

Eddie - this video is fantastic stuff. Thank you for sharing it, for providing the learning opportunity.
 
The only plane that I can recall having a propensity to a secondary stall was the Mustang II, which has a small leading edge radius on the laminar flow airfoil.

Note that the older short wing RVs (3, 4, 6, 7, 8) have a NACA 23000 series airfoil (slightly modified) which is widely used but does not have good aerodynamic stall warning characteristics. The long wing RVs (9,10, 12, and the short wing 14) all have custom airfoils.

I've not yet gone out to abuse my -9A and see what it will do, but spins are not recommended for that plane so I'm not going to be too frisky. I'm also going to make sure that I'm healed enough from multiple spinal surgeries so that I can tolerate a possible 3G pullout.

Ed
 
When Pete my instructor demonstrated the stall, we lost 800ft.

When I demonstrated the same, we lost 1200ft due to the secondary stall that occurred due to me pulling to hard in the recovery and also because I never kept the roll going and pulled through from inverted.
This is an excellent example of where a background in aerobatics comes in handy. The reaction to pull the nose through to wings level comes from primary training, where that's all you do to recover from a stall. Even if your stall leaves you inverted with the nose 45 degrees down, you'll pull all the way around the bottom of the split-S before recovering, without thinking about it, when clearly the better result comes from breaking the stall and continuing with the rolling momentum you've already got.
 
I've not yet gone out to abuse my -9A and see what it will do, but spins are not recommended for that plane so I'm not going to be too frisky. I'm also going to make sure that I'm healed enough from multiple spinal surgeries so that I can tolerate a possible 3G pullout.

When I was testing my 9A back in the day, I did some cross controlled stalls, so left rudder with right aileron. When it broke it rolled inverted in a flash just like the video. Easy to continue the roll back to upright for recovery. It sure surprised me the first time I did it (at altitude of course).
 
I would say probably yes for most non-aerobatic airplanes however please employ a properly qualified CFI to get you started, one well versed in stall spin recovery.

While I did qualify my statement above Boyd Butler expressed concern privately that someone might try this in an un-suitable airplane and get dead, I agree, be sure you know what you're flying, there are at least a handful of GA planes you probably don't want to use for this type of training.
 
Wonderful video, so much to learn here.

One of the most common fatal accidents in all GA airplanes is the low level unintentional stall spin. This video shows how it can happen and in living color and safely. The instructor who is obviously competent, does this on purpose and still loses 800 ft. In spite of what you are flying, that is a dangerous fall if at pattern altitude.

It is also a great refresher of why we practice stalls.

Spin training, basic aerobatics, and/or upset training are all valuable and everyone in my opinion should spend some time and money doing such training, but no matter how competent, you still have to have some altitude to work with.

It also reminds me that with a low altitude engine failure, straight ahead and pick the best spot is almost always going to have the best outcome. The stall spin seldom has a good ending.
 
Did you do this in phase 1?

This video is great, thanks for it!

We all know about this right? - The responses lead me to believe that many have never seen this through the windscreen.

I'd be interested to know of those of you who did your phase 1 flight testing - did you spin your airplane? Have you done this maneuver? If it is the single biggest bad-guy, do we practice it?

I feel very comfortable stalling and spinning my RV-8 in all CG and loading configurations as I fully explored this in phase 1.

I still routinely do spins and I do this maneuver too. The RV-6 that I took transition training in really got my attention with this maneuver - my RV-8 is less 'dramatic'. I do it right and left.

All the usual disclaimers - get some training, etc, etc.
 
We all know about this right? - The responses lead me to believe that many have never seen this through the windscreen.
I haven't. In fact, I've never spun an airplane in my life. I wanted to during training, but it seemed every trainer I flew was placarded against intentional spins.
I'd be interested to know of those of you who did your phase 1 flight testing - did you spin your airplane? Have you done this maneuver? If it is the single biggest bad-guy, do we practice it?
Although I spent a few years building an RV-7, I ended up buying a flying RV-12 -- so I didn't do the Phase I hours. Not that it would have included spins anyway, but that's beside the point. If I had finished the RV-7, at least part of the Phase I hours and all of the aerobatic testing would have been done by an experienced RV aerobatic pilot with lots of test hours behind him. Even after some aerobatic instruction and RV-7 transition training, I don't know that I would have done it with low hours, a little instruction and a brand new plane. I try not to do things that would make me look really stupid in an NTSB report.

If you've got enough experience to do all of your own test flights -- including the inverted-windshield-full-of-green stuff -- fantastic. It would be stupid for me to do it. I really want to get some upset & acro training one of these days, if I can get to the point where I don't need a cargo chute.

So I think that's why you have a lot of RV guys, even the ones who built their own, who have never seen that particular view.
 
I have seen that view several times - but I was always expecting it. I have to believe my initial reaction would be to pull back if that happened unexpectedly. :(
I would think that routine acrobatic flying is the only way to condition to handle this. I don't think a look every 2 years is going to produce enough mussel memory.
 
And Brian wins the award! I was wondering how long it would take before someone mentioned the ball. While it is certainly possible to stall an airplane with the ball in the "middle" it is unlikely that it will enter a spin as fast at this plane did.
And this is a major complaint that I have with our glass panels. The "ball" image in the average EFFIS is basically a waste of time. They are very small, almost an afterthougtht and typically the ball does not move very much, thus we tend not to pay attention to it.
Directly above my EFFIS and just below the glare shield I have an old fashioned ball type bank indicator. These are available from the large aviation parts suppliers, get the biggest one that will fit on your panel. Old school might just save your life.
I have a larger model in my plane, it is very visible, a constant reminder. It is mounted in my line of sight and on base to final turns I check the ball to make sure that I am not cross controlled. It is very easy to get things out of co-ordinated flight when you are at a strange airport, cross wind, crowds, etc. Does AirVenture come to mind...

this was an excellent video, typically on a base to final turn you are going to be around 500' or so agl and based on that video you would not have had time to recover even if you were right on top of it.
 
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Just curious, how far out was the ball when she broke?

I went up and did this a couple times in my Rocket this morning, I got an identical result, carried the roll through and pulled out. While I wasn't looking at the ball I expect it was fully in it's corner. It also took a significant pull (# of force) on the stick to keep the nose up, much more than I ever need in any normal maneuvers or mild aerobatics. It is a very strange corner of the flight envelope to be in, at least in my experience.

Thanks to the OP for the video!
 
How far the skid ball out is one part of the question. The other part of the question is how much rudder was applied, and how quickly...
 
How far the skid ball out is one part of the question. The other part of the question is how much rudder was applied, and how quickly...

Yes, the rate of yawing is critical. You can fly an airplane cross-controlled at low airspeed (e.g. forward slip) but kicking out to get to coordinated flight too quickly can cause a spin. Try it (at altitude)!

Perhaps what we need is not conventional stall avoidance training, but training in all the clever ways we can enter a stall/spin. I think it would be very illuminating. Then we can avoid those manoeuvers!
 
And Brian wins the award! I was wondering how long it would take before someone mentioned the ball. While it is certainly possible to stall an airplane with the ball in the "middle" it is unlikely that it will enter a spin as fast at this plane did.
And this is a major complaint that I have with our glass panels. The "ball" image in the average EFFIS is basically a waste of time. They are very small, almost an afterthougtht and typically the ball does not move very much, thus we tend not to pay attention to it.
Directly above my EFFIS and just below the glare shield I have an old fashioned ball type bank indicator. These are available from the large aviation parts suppliers, get the biggest one that will fit on your panel. Old school might just save your life.
I have a larger model in my plane, it is very visible, a constant reminder. It is mounted in my line of sight and on base to final turns I check the ball to make sure that I am not cross controlled. It is very easy to get things out of co-ordinated flight when you are at a strange airport, cross wind, crowds, etc. Does AirVenture come to mind...

this was an excellent video, typically on a base to final turn you are going to be around 500' or so agl and based on that video you would not have had time to recover even if you were right on top of it.

Tom,

Ditto on the use an old-school ball; I'm always surprised how few RVs seem to have one. Mine is mounted on top of the glare shield and very easy to see. Its also never had a power failure! :)

The instructor in the video says that he's giving it a "big boot of inside rudder" or words to that effect. I've got to think this means the ball was way out to the right.
 
Note in the video the stall warning sounds after we are pointing at the ground :(

The Skyview system doesn't have a stall warning mechanism, per s?, but rather an AoA indicator. That the AoA indicator was not on sooner and wasn't a near-solid or solid tone at the break suggests that it has not been calibrated per Dynon's instructions.

Additionally, perhaps you want to configure it so it comes on sooner - bottom of the yellow, perhaps - so it starts warning you sooner.
 
Eddie
Is this video going to be put on you YouTube channel?
I hope so as I find it easier to save a link to it on YouTube.
John
 
Yes, the rate of yawing is critical. You can fly an airplane cross-controlled at low airspeed (e.g. forward slip) but kicking out to get to coordinated flight too quickly can cause a spin.

No, it won't start to spin no matter how fast you release rudder unless you release the ailerons first. Try it.
 
Tom,

Ditto on the use an old-school ball; I'm always surprised how few RVs seem to have one. Mine is mounted on top of the glare shield and very easy to see. Its also never had a power failure! :)

Some yarn on the windshield would be interesting for folks who are practicing this without a ball that's easily keep in view.
 
Hi Guys

Firstly a response to Vern's question, yes I have calibrated the Dynon angle of attack system as per their instructions.
It generally drives me to distraction as its very sensitive to gusts etc.
If you watch the very first strait ahead stall you'll hear it starting to beep as I approach the stall, not sure how much more sensitive it could be.

For those that prefer youTube, I'll upload and add the link here when it's done

Cheers
 
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Hi Scott,


Sorry, work got in the way, I'll upload tomorrow morning and add the link then.

So if you check back in about 12hours.

Believe it or not our home internet is so slow I need to do it at work.

Cheers
 
Sent the video link to some flying buddies and got this response from one of them. Food for thought........

Oly,

Video was well done regarding the dangers of using rudder in a high alpha turn. Anyone with a license should know that is how you enter a spin. Oh, I forgot, nobody learns spins anymore.

Considerations: Learn to fly with the ball centered particularly as angle of attack (alpha) increases. If the stall warning is going off or AOA is red, correct the problem instantly. Train for engine failure on TO: at altitude learn how much altitude is required to execute a 'return to runway' maneuver. If you don't have that height don't attempt it. An airplane with 0 G cannot stall or spin. If the airplane starts break, unload the stick and recover straight ahead. Practice slow flight (at altitude) to know your airplane. Take some spin training. Since most RV's operate from long runways just carry lots of speed (100 MPH) in the pattern allowing it to bleed off in a long landing flare -- landings for dummies but don't do it on a short field.

Just thinking. Fly safe.

Bill

 
I remember back in the 80s when I was working on my PPL, I requested to learn spin recovery, usually my instructor would take the controls and demo every move first, this time he did not, he put me in a nose high power off stall condition and then told me to input L rudder? within an instant we flipped inverted for a second and all I saw was the ocean spinning at me, I remember him talking me through the recovery process. I went out practicing all the time after that. I think it should be required.
 
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