Van's Air Force
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RV-10 air conditioning
- Thread starter MarvinL
- Start date
John Clark
Well Known Member
Why?
One question on the A/C installation. Why? A lot of cost, complexity and weight for a system that is inefective when you would like it to work. On the ground on a hot day it would be nice to have but at idle RPM the system won't be much help. The best relief comes from mother nature through lapse rate. On a 100 degree day on the surface, it will be 72 degrees F at 8000 feet.
John Clark
RV8 N18U Flying
One question on the A/C installation. Why? A lot of cost, complexity and weight for a system that is inefective when you would like it to work. On the ground on a hot day it would be nice to have but at idle RPM the system won't be much help. The best relief comes from mother nature through lapse rate. On a 100 degree day on the surface, it will be 72 degrees F at 8000 feet.
John Clark
RV8 N18U Flying
Deems Davis
Well Known Member
Why Not
If you live in Arizona, and fly out of KDVT, where your are routinly 'number 5 + for TO' and the overnight LOW temp is 100 degrees from June throuough Sept, you will quickly appreciate the advantages of A/C
There is another Vendor that is preparing an RV-10 A/C install package they were @ OSH and had a booth set up that was being run by their system, it was twice the air volume as the -10 and it was NICE !!!!! their system is a CLOSED system, so you don't have the worry of Carbon Monxide, and it doesn't require the drag inducing P51 belly scoop.
http://www.flightlineac.com/vans_aircraft_kits/?source=VansAirForce
If you live in Arizona, and fly out of KDVT, where your are routinly 'number 5 + for TO' and the overnight LOW temp is 100 degrees from June throuough Sept, you will quickly appreciate the advantages of A/C
There is another Vendor that is preparing an RV-10 A/C install package they were @ OSH and had a booth set up that was being run by their system, it was twice the air volume as the -10 and it was NICE !!!!! their system is a CLOSED system, so you don't have the worry of Carbon Monxide, and it doesn't require the drag inducing P51 belly scoop.
http://www.flightlineac.com/vans_aircraft_kits/?source=VansAirForce
John,
I guess you don't fly in the southeast in the summer very often. It's great if you can climb quickly to 10,000 and cool off but that doesn't work often. I fly out of a Class C airport and it can be 20 minutes before you takeoff and you will be held at or below 3000 for some time. Or when you coming back in they will vector you for 20 minutes at 2000' and you just fry in the plane. I wouldn't build a plane without AC.
I guess you don't fly in the southeast in the summer very often. It's great if you can climb quickly to 10,000 and cool off but that doesn't work often. I fly out of a Class C airport and it can be 20 minutes before you takeoff and you will be held at or below 3000 for some time. Or when you coming back in they will vector you for 20 minutes at 2000' and you just fry in the plane. I wouldn't build a plane without AC.
RV Air Conditioning
I operate in Houston, Texas where the climate justifies the expense of an air conditioner. When I rode in Alex's plane the temperature was 102 and the air conditioner was on while on the ground and at all times while flying. I thought it was quite confortable.
I operate in Houston, Texas where the climate justifies the expense of an air conditioner. When I rode in Alex's plane the temperature was 102 and the air conditioner was on while on the ground and at all times while flying. I thought it was quite confortable.
John Clark
Well Known Member
Just experience
My post was based on experience flying an Aerostar with a "freon" A/C system. If the modern systems are up to the task, I'm all for being cool. However, I have found most systems ineffective and real maintenance headaches.
My post was based on experience flying an Aerostar with a "freon" A/C system. If the modern systems are up to the task, I'm all for being cool. However, I have found most systems ineffective and real maintenance headaches.
rv10 air conditioning
I am installing the same system on my RV10. The company is Air Flow Systems http://www.airflow-systems.com/. The system only adds about 35 pounds to the aircraft and moves the cg back about 3/8".
Greg...
I am installing the same system on my RV10. The company is Air Flow Systems http://www.airflow-systems.com/. The system only adds about 35 pounds to the aircraft and moves the cg back about 3/8".
Greg...
Martin Sutter
Well Known Member
RV10 Aircondidtioning
My wife and I had the pleasure to fly Alex's Airflow Systems equipped RV10 from Texas to Oshkosh and back. Both travel days were extremely hot with ground temps over 100F and temps at 8000' still over 80F. We used the AC most of the way and it worked just as well as in any modern car. Upon engine start cool air flows immediately and we left the air on thru taxi, take-off, climb-out and cruise. Performance loss on take off was not detectable and all the engine temps stayed in the green. Airflow Systems must really have done their development work well as the AC was just as easy to use as it is in your car. The twelve hours of flying in the beastly heat were an enjoyable luxury ride thanks to the AC.
Martin Sutter
Building and flying RV's since 1988
My wife and I had the pleasure to fly Alex's Airflow Systems equipped RV10 from Texas to Oshkosh and back. Both travel days were extremely hot with ground temps over 100F and temps at 8000' still over 80F. We used the AC most of the way and it worked just as well as in any modern car. Upon engine start cool air flows immediately and we left the air on thru taxi, take-off, climb-out and cruise. Performance loss on take off was not detectable and all the engine temps stayed in the green. Airflow Systems must really have done their development work well as the AC was just as easy to use as it is in your car. The twelve hours of flying in the beastly heat were an enjoyable luxury ride thanks to the AC.
Martin Sutter
Building and flying RV's since 1988
rv10 air conditioning
Air Flow provides a good installation manual of the system. Air Flow has also setup a network of installers around the country that can install the system into a finished and flying RV10. They are looking into having the dual groove ring gear available at a cheaper price than what Lycoming is asking. I do have pictures of the Air Flow System installation in my RV10. You can view them at www.nwacaptain.com.
Greg...
Air Flow provides a good installation manual of the system. Air Flow has also setup a network of installers around the country that can install the system into a finished and flying RV10. They are looking into having the dual groove ring gear available at a cheaper price than what Lycoming is asking. I do have pictures of the Air Flow System installation in my RV10. You can view them at www.nwacaptain.com.
Greg...
brianwallis
VAF moderator
WHa!!!?
How much are you guys paying for this!!!? I can make an AC unit for the airplane in a few hrs and under 200 bucks (I think).... I've got another version under development.... Basically it's a cooler.... bilge pump.... 2 computer fans.. large... and a coil and a vent and a small power supply. I'm working on a dry ice and a freon version as we speak... it's 12v... and not that expensive.
It's the size of a drink cooler and works GREAT!!!!
if anyone wants one... lemmie know.... and I'll see if I can do some bulk stuff....
Brian
How much are you guys paying for this!!!? I can make an AC unit for the airplane in a few hrs and under 200 bucks (I think).... I've got another version under development.... Basically it's a cooler.... bilge pump.... 2 computer fans.. large... and a coil and a vent and a small power supply. I'm working on a dry ice and a freon version as we speak... it's 12v... and not that expensive.
It's the size of a drink cooler and works GREAT!!!!
if anyone wants one... lemmie know.... and I'll see if I can do some bulk stuff....
Brian
Me too.dan said:
I don't want to pay 5-7k for A/C (before installation!), and don't think you can get "real" A/C in a 2-place for any price.
Is it really that heavy and that much of a power hog? If anyone came up with a reasonable system for 2-place Experimentals, they probably wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand.
How many cars today are sold without A/C? Even the minimally powered cars have A/C. Seems like someone could come up with something...
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Me too
I had an A/C unit in my last Air Tractor and even without insulation, the airplane stayed comfy all summer long since we work about 2-3' above the crop and Georgia in the summer is scorching hot!
The unit was driven by a DC motor and a Gilmer belt. Kinda hard on the generator brushes but they lasted all season. Other units were driven off a pulley behind the prop (On 1340 cu. in. Pratts). I'd be interested in a light unit too, Brian.
Regards,
I had an A/C unit in my last Air Tractor and even without insulation, the airplane stayed comfy all summer long since we work about 2-3' above the crop and Georgia in the summer is scorching hot!
The unit was driven by a DC motor and a Gilmer belt. Kinda hard on the generator brushes but they lasted all season. Other units were driven off a pulley behind the prop (On 1340 cu. in. Pratts). I'd be interested in a light unit too, Brian.
Regards,
brianwallis
VAF moderator
ok
Sounds like there is some interest. I'm making some phone calls as we speak to see how much the coils are and the other stuff... I've got a demo unit that I think I can get ahold of from one of my friends that built one... It just takes 12v and a bag or two of ice to make happen.. and usually fbo's have ice. I'm hoping the freon units work without the ice.. and I'm looking at the dry ice version too... but I like the freon idea better. Really all thats happening is that we put everything together in whatever size cooler we deem fit to do so and it fits in the back of my aa-1a just fine!!
Brian
I'll post soon...
Sounds like there is some interest. I'm making some phone calls as we speak to see how much the coils are and the other stuff... I've got a demo unit that I think I can get ahold of from one of my friends that built one... It just takes 12v and a bag or two of ice to make happen.. and usually fbo's have ice. I'm hoping the freon units work without the ice.. and I'm looking at the dry ice version too... but I like the freon idea better. Really all thats happening is that we put everything together in whatever size cooler we deem fit to do so and it fits in the back of my aa-1a just fine!!
Brian
I'll post soon...
brianwallis
VAF moderator
ps
If anyone can define "real" ac for me in some sort of measurement I'd be very appreciative (so we can all be on the same sheet of paper)... If I need to start from a clean sheet of paper for a 10 I need to know... I'm sure we've got the 2 places covered....maybe not the 4 places though...
Brian
I've also heard about the "cool vest" idea.. \but I like the AC better...
N674P said:
If anyone can define "real" ac for me in some sort of measurement I'd be very appreciative (so we can all be on the same sheet of paper)... If I need to start from a clean sheet of paper for a 10 I need to know... I'm sure we've got the 2 places covered....maybe not the 4 places though...
Brian
I've also heard about the "cool vest" idea.. \but I like the AC better...
My .02
"Real AC" means a refrigerant loop. Compressor, expander valve, evaporator coil, fan, the whole works. I am NOT going to mess with loading ice into my airplane each time I want cool air and having to deal with the weight, bulk and slopping around, and there's no way I'm going to put CO2 into my cabin atmosphere with dry ice.
I think N674P might have been referring to "real" AC as a system capable of putting out a decent amount of cool air, as being "real"ly effective.
"Real AC" means a refrigerant loop. Compressor, expander valve, evaporator coil, fan, the whole works. I am NOT going to mess with loading ice into my airplane each time I want cool air and having to deal with the weight, bulk and slopping around, and there's no way I'm going to put CO2 into my cabin atmosphere with dry ice.
I think N674P might have been referring to "real" AC as a system capable of putting out a decent amount of cool air, as being "real"ly effective.
Deems Davis
Well Known Member
Is $39.95 cheap enough?
Not a REAL A/C, but seems to work for the boat people. You can subsitute ice w/ bottles of frozen water, or Blue Ice -Ice cubes/packs to avoid the moisture/humidity in the cabin. Just another thought.
http://www.kooleraire.com/
Not a REAL A/C, but seems to work for the boat people. You can subsitute ice w/ bottles of frozen water, or Blue Ice -Ice cubes/packs to avoid the moisture/humidity in the cabin. Just another thought.
http://www.kooleraire.com/
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
I am going to make the assumption this is NOT a joke--------
O.K., in a quick scan of the site I saw cooler size minimum of 25 quart.
This is apx 6 gal at 8.4 lbs/gal=50 lbs+. Larger cooler, more cooling, but even more weight. Yes, ice weighs less than water, and there are voids in there, but add in the equipement.
If I recall correctly, in a prior post the weight of a real engine driven system was 35lbs, and it is almost equally balanced fore/aft.
All in one place in the plane, most likely in the back.
And what happens to ice when you extract cooling from it???
And where does that water go when it gets a bit rough up there??? Blue ice or frozen water bottles will address this, but where do you get them on a cross country fuel stop?
No, I think I will pass on this one.
Mike
O.K., in a quick scan of the site I saw cooler size minimum of 25 quart.
This is apx 6 gal at 8.4 lbs/gal=50 lbs+. Larger cooler, more cooling, but even more weight. Yes, ice weighs less than water, and there are voids in there, but add in the equipement.
If I recall correctly, in a prior post the weight of a real engine driven system was 35lbs, and it is almost equally balanced fore/aft.
All in one place in the plane, most likely in the back.
And what happens to ice when you extract cooling from it???
And where does that water go when it gets a bit rough up there??? Blue ice or frozen water bottles will address this, but where do you get them on a cross country fuel stop?
No, I think I will pass on this one.
Mike
Last edited:
Deems Davis
Well Known Member
Follow-up
I thought it was silly when I first looked at it as well, but the Engine driven systems that I've looked at weight 45-50 pounds, the compressor (up front) weighs aprox 13-14 lbs, the hoses run between, but the bulk of the weight is AFT of the baggage bulkhead. The all electric driven (28v) systems are even heavier 50+ lbs. I have no idea how well/poorly this system would work, but it's an idea that warrants consideration when considering the additional systems complexity of an 'integrated' Real A/C. The cost/complexity trade off is significant. Add to that, you really only need the A/C for a relatively short portion of the flight.
I thought it was silly when I first looked at it as well, but the Engine driven systems that I've looked at weight 45-50 pounds, the compressor (up front) weighs aprox 13-14 lbs, the hoses run between, but the bulk of the weight is AFT of the baggage bulkhead. The all electric driven (28v) systems are even heavier 50+ lbs. I have no idea how well/poorly this system would work, but it's an idea that warrants consideration when considering the additional systems complexity of an 'integrated' Real A/C. The cost/complexity trade off is significant. Add to that, you really only need the A/C for a relatively short portion of the flight.
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
My info source
This is the weight I was using to compare.
The ice box thing will probably work, sure is vastly better priced, but I just cant seem to take it too seriously for aircraft usage.
Besides, when you get to where you are going the beer wil be warm.
If you decide to try one, please post your results.
Mike
greghale said:
This is the weight I was using to compare.
The ice box thing will probably work, sure is vastly better priced, but I just cant seem to take it too seriously for aircraft usage.
Besides, when you get to where you are going the beer wil be warm.
If you decide to try one, please post your results.
Mike
johngoodman
Well Known Member
I think this is an idea that should be looked at. When do you really need A/C? Start, taxi, and T/O. Once you're through a few thousand feet, it's less of an issue.
Mix a little alcohol in the waste water and inject it in the engine.....Hmmmm; didn't they do that in the Martin 404?
Mix a little alcohol in the waste water and inject it in the engine.....Hmmmm; didn't they do that in the Martin 404?
brianwallis
VAF moderator
ac idea
Ok... Lets go with a simple pro and con list. My unit is 12v and does not need a compressor or hoses or all the "stuff" normally associated with an engine driven system. It uses a bag or two of ice and it runs water through a hose and a coil and transferrs the cold of the ice/ icewater to the air and cools down a box van... not the entire cabin 32 deg but nicely below ambient temp. The cooler thing I looked up from the post does not have a coil/... it just looks like a fan and a lid. It's not thought out like mine. You can stick your beverages of choice in the cooler and they will stay cool for the trip. It does have a lid and 2 openings... so NO negative g's please or you will have water (some)come out. IF you see yourself flying in that kind of weather... I dont see you bringing a cooler.... Most FBO's have ice so I dont see a huge problem with that... besides... most flights in the summer are <2hrs.
The cost is estimated to be less than 400... and more that 100.
The "real ac" in airplanes is a 35 lb compressor..+. tubes..+ freon and who knows what the maintenance bill to maintain it and charge it... you cannot hold your drinks in it... It does a good job of ac. Costs maybe 5k before installation.
My unit is for people who would like an inexpensive unit that cools the air inside the airplane and dont feel like spending the 5-7k on all the "STC" or otherwise parts.. Lets say 300.00 You get a cooler and an airconditioning... that lasts for better than an hour and a place to keep your drinks that fits into any RV-4 or higher... Bash me if you want.. but I'm spending the 5k on a garmin 430 and a KI206... and I'll have cold drinks when I get there... and no sweaty hot uncomfortable wife/GF that is nagging me.
5k buys a LOT of ice from the free ice maker at the FBO for those 1 hr flights.
Sure... it's not the Benford 2000 mega ice air maker but It does a darn good job for cheap. I'm an aircraft mechanic... Not a millionair... I count every day as a blessing that I have my airplane... and I love her so.
Brian
Ok... Lets go with a simple pro and con list. My unit is 12v and does not need a compressor or hoses or all the "stuff" normally associated with an engine driven system. It uses a bag or two of ice and it runs water through a hose and a coil and transferrs the cold of the ice/ icewater to the air and cools down a box van... not the entire cabin 32 deg but nicely below ambient temp. The cooler thing I looked up from the post does not have a coil/... it just looks like a fan and a lid. It's not thought out like mine. You can stick your beverages of choice in the cooler and they will stay cool for the trip. It does have a lid and 2 openings... so NO negative g's please or you will have water (some)come out. IF you see yourself flying in that kind of weather... I dont see you bringing a cooler.... Most FBO's have ice so I dont see a huge problem with that... besides... most flights in the summer are <2hrs.
The cost is estimated to be less than 400... and more that 100.
The "real ac" in airplanes is a 35 lb compressor..+. tubes..+ freon and who knows what the maintenance bill to maintain it and charge it... you cannot hold your drinks in it... It does a good job of ac. Costs maybe 5k before installation.
My unit is for people who would like an inexpensive unit that cools the air inside the airplane and dont feel like spending the 5-7k on all the "STC" or otherwise parts.. Lets say 300.00 You get a cooler and an airconditioning... that lasts for better than an hour and a place to keep your drinks that fits into any RV-4 or higher... Bash me if you want.. but I'm spending the 5k on a garmin 430 and a KI206... and I'll have cold drinks when I get there... and no sweaty hot uncomfortable wife/GF that is nagging me.
5k buys a LOT of ice from the free ice maker at the FBO for those 1 hr flights.
Sure... it's not the Benford 2000 mega ice air maker but It does a darn good job for cheap. I'm an aircraft mechanic... Not a millionair... I count every day as a blessing that I have my airplane... and I love her so.
Brian
