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Back-Riveting

md9680

md9680

Well Known Member
Friend
Don't you just LOVE to back-rivet? I sure do! It's so much fun to tape those little suckers into the holes, turn the elevator skin over and onto your back-rivet plate and just let 'er rip! I especially had fun just a few minutes ago when I joined a rather common club -- riveted a rivet without there being a stiffener on the row! :D Thankfully, it was just the first one and I'm already pretty skilled at drilling out those little suckers...
 
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Yes. Backriveting is my first choice and use it where ever i can. Even the firewall to the stifenners were backriveted using the c frame dimpling tool modified with the long backrivet set in the upper arm and a mushroom set in the base. Resulted in fast riveting with absolutely no denting in the stainless.

Bevan
 
Back riveting bliss!

Just don't get complacent..... Once you hit that rivet gun and miss the backing plate, you might be sorry. The rivet set might blow a nice image to read through the other side:eek:
 
I love backriveting, too. Just be careful, as already noted, to always make sure you have that plate underneath the rivet you're shooting. The day you pull the trigger and there's no plate under the rivet, you'll mess up a skin pretty bad. Ask me how I know.

When you get to your wings, consider backriveting the top skins on. That's what I did, using a 12" long double-offset backriveting set (Avery Tools). If done properly (increase air psi to about 80#) you won't believe how nice your wings will look. Here's a page from my log showing how we did it:

Backriveting Top Wing SKins
 
My shop started lifesaver a wood working shop. As a result I have a table saw in the shop. That cast iron surface is the best backing pl. You do have to make sure the rivet isn't over one of the slots for the miter slider. I guess the table saw option would qualify as a hint for new builders :)
 
I back riveted all the top right side elevator stiffeners in place before I realized I'd not dimpled the stiffeners.... drilled them ALL out...
 
Part of my RV-9 got airborne without an engine... guess why!

Sorry to revive this old post, but I have some news... parts of my RV-9 got airborne... without an engine... Back riveting is driving me nuts!!!

As mentioned in another post last week I am waiting for the rest of my kit to arrive. Finally, after almost 5 months! While waiting, I am still finalizing some things before I ready for a mandatory inspection (local regulation). Today I received an order with some tools. One of them was a new back rivet set... why did I order a new one? Long story.

I have done some back riveting on the rudder, and it went quiet well. But for some reason every attempt since then fails... I have probably searched for every little tip on back riveting, I am doing something wrong... for sure!

- pressure 37 psi for 3 - 3.5 rivet. Tried less and more pressure, no success.
- bought an air line swivel because I thought the weight of the air hose had anything to do with it, no success.
- filed one side of the plastic collar to be able to get closer in the bend of the stiffener, no success.
- tilted a bit more to the stiffener, no success.
- went away from it and try again, same results.
- no pressure on the rivet gun, let it set itself, same...
- took the rivet gun in the palm of my hand and triggered with my middle finger to avoid tilting, same...
- Placed a mirror and a light, same...
- locked the plastic collar between thumb and index finger, same issue.
- talked to other builders, sounds easy when the explain it, when I try it, it fails.
- replaced my back rivet set, no success.

Finally, I drilled out about 50 holes in two scrap sheets and tried over and over again. Some are good, most are not. Don't really understand what the magic it that makes them good or bad. It is just not consistent. Really frustrating!

backrivet1.jpg

backrivet2.jpg


The problem seems to be that they are or not even, or bend over. The most logical explanation for the bend is that the rivet is too long, but it are the standard 3.5 rivets VANS advices to use, probably 1000 builders already did so. It must be missing something...

Any advice for this frustrated back riveter? :mad:

How some parts got airborne? Well... I noticed that I still needed to put the plate nuts in the electric trim part, bad idea to start with that part after all the trouble with the back riveting... it got airborne.
 
Looks like you've tried everything. Are you using a 2X or a 3X gun?
I have a 3X gun and at 40psi it takes 4-5 taps to back set a 3.5 rivet. Also, I press down hard on the rivet set.

BTW, a lot of those rivets are fine, some are over driven, some under driven. I think you just need more practice
 
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The back rivet set needs a bit more air pressure than 37 psi.
I had similar issues trying to back rivet. I ended up ditching the back rivet and used the good old tungsten bar and swivel head mushroom set.
 
WVM,
Try with the plate on concrete floor and more air pressure, 60 with a short set and 80with a long set.
 
It looks like a little side motion. I had issues and hold the rivet gun upside down. My palm is over the shank and force centered on the shank axis. You can still pull the trigger this way.

Just something to try. Many times I will drill this way too to prevent walking.

Another warning - -know where the end of the backplate is!! Don't rivet off the end. It is a VERY COMMON cause of damage.

You also might hold the pressure sleeve with the other hand.

Keep practicing until it is perfect!
 
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Back riveting

Lots of good suggestions already.
Pressure is somewhat gun dependent. My Sioux 3x takes far less than my no name 3x. Experiment to find the sweet spot. For my Sioux, starting pressure is 20 psi for #3s.
It appears the rivets are clinching. The set has to be perfectly in line with the rivet shank.
Try different hand grips. With rivet guns and drills I always point a finger at the work like shooting a gun.
Finally, try feathering the trigger to partially set the rivet. Just a few light hits with a feathered trigger and take a look. It should be just slightly swelled. Then hit it hard for the second or two till fully set. It shouldn't take more to fully set a rivet. If it's taking several seconds, turn up the pressure.
It's also possible the rivet is moving off perpendicular to the plate. The feathered trigger trick will help keep it from drifting because it swells the rivet just enough to hold it's place. If that doesn't work, try the next trick.
Last trick is to get a piece of vacuum hose or similar with an ID close to the rivet shank. Cut a piece off a tiny bit longer than the protruding shank. Place over the shank and drive it. The hose will push the parts together and the factory head against the plate keeping it perpendicular.
 
Is setup secure?

WVM,
Sorry to ask the obvious. I had such great success with backriveting, just wanted to make sure you have the right set up.

I routed out a space in the masonite, that covered my steel worktable that was covered in 1 inch particle board. The backrivet plate was 1/4 inch steel that I glued to the particle board. There was no motion or give in this setup.

Sounds to me like your backrivet plate is giving way and not allowing you to have consistent results. I found very little pressue was needed with my springloaded backset (from Cleaveland) and usual 80 psi pressure.

You've got flaps and ailerons coming as well so make sure you get it working well! Good luck!
 
bruceh said:
The back rivet set needs a bit more air pressure than 37 psi.
I had similar issues trying to back rivet. I ended up ditching the back rivet and used the good old tungsten bar and swivel head mushroom set.
Click to expand...

I am really close doing so too... it is really driving me nuts! The reason that I still want to try is because at Oshkosh I was told by VANS that they back rivet most of the rivets in their planes. The result is better in the end. Once you got the technique, it should be easier... hear saying from the mother ship.
 
BillL said:
It looks like a little side motion. I had issues and hold the rivet gun upside down. My palm is over the shank and force centered on the shank axis. You can still pull the trigger this way.

Just something to try. Many times I will drill this way too to prevent walking.

Another warning - -know where the end of the backplate is!! Don't rivet off the end. It is a VERY COMMON cause of damage.

You also might hold the pressure sleeve with the other hand.

Keep practicing until it is perfect!
Click to expand...

I already had long discussions with local builders about the side motion. They tell me that this is nearly impossible when the rivet is of the proper length and it should not really matter where the rivet hit the set. As long as you hold in square, it should drive them correct. I also hold the plastic collar firmly.

Could you explain what a pressure sleeve is?
 
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gladiator68 said:
WVM,
Sorry to ask the obvious. I had such great success with backriveting, just wanted to make sure you have the right set up.

I routed out a space in the masonite, that covered my steel worktable that was covered in 1 inch particle board. The backrivet plate was 1/4 inch steel that I glued to the particle board. There was no motion or give in this setup.

Sounds to me like your backrivet plate is giving way and not allowing you to have consistent results. I found very little pressue was needed with my springloaded backset (from Cleaveland) and usual 80 psi pressure.

You've got flaps and ailerons coming as well so make sure you get it working well! Good luck!
Click to expand...

Motion of the back rivet plate... never thought about it... it is so heavy that I automatically ignored it. But it is true that it is on regular and flat table top, which will not prevent it from moving. On the other hand I also didn't see it move. I am going to try to put it on a sheet of rubber and try again! I would be really happy if it was that easy to fix. Because the issue is exactly that, none is consistent while I have the impression that I do exactly the same compared to good and bad results.
 
wirejock said:
Lots of good suggestions already.
Pressure is somewhat gun dependent. My Sioux 3x takes far less than my no name 3x. Experiment to find the sweet spot. For my Sioux, starting pressure is 20 psi for #3s.
It appears the rivets are clinching. The set has to be perfectly in line with the rivet shank.
Try different hand grips. With rivet guns and drills I always point a finger at the work like shooting a gun.
Finally, try feathering the trigger to partially set the rivet. Just a few light hits with a feathered trigger and take a look. It should be just slightly swelled. Then hit it hard for the second or two till fully set. It shouldn't take more to fully set a rivet. If it's taking several seconds, turn up the pressure.
It's also possible the rivet is moving off perpendicular to the plate. The feathered trigger trick will help keep it from drifting because it swells the rivet just enough to hold it's place. If that doesn't work, try the next trick.
Last trick is to get a piece of vacuum hose or similar with an ID close to the rivet shank. Cut a piece off a tiny bit longer than the protruding shank. Place over the shank and drive it. The hose will push the parts together and the factory head against the plate keeping it perpendicular.
Click to expand...

Going to give the feathering a try. Not sure that I understand the the vacuum host trick. So you cut of the hose the length of the rivet hammer shank and place it over the shank. Right? Disadvantage looks to be that you don't see what is happening, but going to try it...
 
WVM said:
The problem seems to be that they are or not even, or bend over. The most logical explanation for the bend is that the rivet is too long, but it are the standard 3.5 rivets VANS advices to use, probably 1000 builders already did so.


It must be missing something...
Click to expand...

Maybe correct rivet length?
You didn't mention what parts your were riveting, just that the recommended length is 3.5

The majority of locations were back riveting is specifically recommended, an AD3-3 rivet is specified.

What parts are you having difficulty with?

Back riveting can be very unpredictable if the rivet lengths are even just slightly too long.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Maybe correct rivet length?
You didn't mention what parts your were riveting, just that the recommended length is 3.5

The majority of locations were back riveting is specifically recommended, an AD3-3 rivet is specified.

What parts are you having difficulty with?

Back riveting can be very unpredictable if the rivet lengths are even just slightly too long.
Click to expand...

I am riveting the stiffeners on the elevator skins.

You may be right! I just reviewed the plans and noticed that I should use AD3-3 rivets, while I am using AD3-3.5 rivets instead! That might also explain why it did work on the stiffeners for the rudder...

What is even more strange is that I noticed the rather small bag with AD3-3 rivets yesterday and thought "almost never used those and my empennage is almost done... but it never came up to me to verify the length on the plans...

If this is it I will be sooooooo happy! Going to try it tonight and will keep you posted.
 
Rivet length

WVM said:
Going to give the feathering a try. Not sure that I understand the the vacuum host trick. So you cut of the hose the length of the rivet hammer shank and place it over the shank. Right? Disadvantage looks to be that you don't see what is happening, but going to try it...
Click to expand...

That's correct. The section of tube is slightly longer than the exposed rivet shank. It's a neat trick when you have parts that don't nest tight.

WVM said:
You may be right! I just reviewed the plans and noticed that I should use AD3-3 rivets, while I am using AD3-3.5 rivets instead!
Click to expand...

That could be it. It's still a good skill to drive a slightly longer rivet.
Verify the rivet length is correct for the parts. I have found rivet call outs too short on several occasions and chose a longer one so the shop head id driven to correct dimension. Some times they get cut to a perfect length.
 
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Hi,

I have to agree with the topic starter: back riveting is lovely... when you use the correct rivet length! :rolleyes:

backrivet3.jpg


Thanks everyone! :)
 
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