Van's Air Force
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RV-8 spin recovery
- Thread starter donaziza
- Start date
Spin Recovery
My instructor is teaching me how to do them and it is the standard opposite rudder and neutral elevator. He also demonstrated the military version where you just take your feet off the rudders and hands off the stick and it recovers by itself. He has done 12 consecutive turns in his RV8. Not sure why Vans doesn't recommend them.
My instructor is teaching me how to do them and it is the standard opposite rudder and neutral elevator. He also demonstrated the military version where you just take your feet off the rudders and hands off the stick and it recovers by itself. He has done 12 consecutive turns in his RV8. Not sure why Vans doesn't recommend them.
The same as it is in just about any other airplane.
PARE
Power-idle
Ailerons - neutral
Rudder - opposite that of rotation. [edit] to stop rotation [end edit] (step on the high wing just like in a regular stall)
Elevator - push forward to break the stall.
recover.
(this is of course for a right-side-up spin.)
PARE
Power-idle
Ailerons - neutral
Rudder - opposite that of rotation. [edit] to stop rotation [end edit] (step on the high wing just like in a regular stall)
Elevator - push forward to break the stall.
recover.
(this is of course for a right-side-up spin.)
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I'm not an aircraft designer, but I have it on good authority that the way an aircraft is built can greatly affect the spin characteristics. So if Van said "spinning an RV8 is safe" and a builder put a very light engine in which shifted the CG too far rearward, or changed some other important characteristic, it could make spin recovery much more difficult.
jferraro17
Opulence, I has it...
I'm not sure which "military version" he's teaching, but if one of my T-37 students would have done that back in the day, I would have killed him myself!
In fact the T-37 spin recovery could be described as violent with regards to control input.
I'm betting neutral elevator (break the stall) and leaning on the opposite rudder would work great in the -8, but I can't speak from experience, as I still fly a rivet gun as an RV.
Joe
"more time in s spin than I care to remember"
frankh
Well Known Member
I have a 7a
And the CG is forward of most as I have a 2.25" prop extension and a Hartzell C/S prop.
Anyway my airplane is fairly spin resistsant but can be got to spin well by using full opposte aileron..I,e full left rudder and full right aileron.
The interesting thing is that it will not stop rotating (or at least recovery is very sluggish) if you forget to canter the ailerons.
Un nerved me a little first time...I.e full opposite rudder and it kept going..
Actually I don't mind this for two reasons...I can do pretty good spins and snap rolls by going full aileron and it teaches me to be cognisant of where the stick is...All good aerobatic awareness skill building stuff.
Frank
And the CG is forward of most as I have a 2.25" prop extension and a Hartzell C/S prop.
Anyway my airplane is fairly spin resistsant but can be got to spin well by using full opposte aileron..I,e full left rudder and full right aileron.
The interesting thing is that it will not stop rotating (or at least recovery is very sluggish) if you forget to canter the ailerons.
Un nerved me a little first time...I.e full opposite rudder and it kept going..
Actually I don't mind this for two reasons...I can do pretty good spins and snap rolls by going full aileron and it teaches me to be cognisant of where the stick is...All good aerobatic awareness skill building stuff.
Frank
4kilo
Well Known Member
RV-8 Spin Recovery
I did some fairly extensive spin testing in my RV-8. The generic spin recovery - throttle closed, ailerons centered, opposite rudder then stick forward to break the stall - worked every time within one quarter to three quarter turn (depending on CG). With a forward CG the recovery is very rapid and takes very little effort beyond releasing control pressure.
With the CG at the aft aerobatic limit a fair amount of forward stick pressure is required. If no forward stick is applied, the stick will remain fully aft and the aircraft will remain stalled and continue to auto-rotate. Therefore, I do not recommend the "release the controls" recovery as a standard technique in an RV-8!
Pat
I did some fairly extensive spin testing in my RV-8. The generic spin recovery - throttle closed, ailerons centered, opposite rudder then stick forward to break the stall - worked every time within one quarter to three quarter turn (depending on CG). With a forward CG the recovery is very rapid and takes very little effort beyond releasing control pressure.
With the CG at the aft aerobatic limit a fair amount of forward stick pressure is required. If no forward stick is applied, the stick will remain fully aft and the aircraft will remain stalled and continue to auto-rotate. Therefore, I do not recommend the "release the controls" recovery as a standard technique in an RV-8!
Pat
Not all RV models spin the same...
"Van's doesn't recommend them"
I don't think this is true for the RV-8.
It is true for the RV-6 and 7. All the models do not spin the same. The side by side 6 and 7, after 2 turns or so, typically will wrap up in rotation rate faster than most pilots would feel comfortable with unless they have quite a bit of experience spinning in something similar. It could be enough to frighten or panic the uninitiated. The caution; is to not be casual about spinning your RV-6 or 7 just because you have done a few spins in a C-150, champ, citabria, etc.
The tandem seat RV's tend to spin a little more like what most pilots have taken spins in but it is still a good idea to get an experienced instructor or RV pilot to ride along for your first exposure to RV spins if you have not done that type of maneuver for a while.
"Van's doesn't recommend them"
I don't think this is true for the RV-8.
It is true for the RV-6 and 7. All the models do not spin the same. The side by side 6 and 7, after 2 turns or so, typically will wrap up in rotation rate faster than most pilots would feel comfortable with unless they have quite a bit of experience spinning in something similar. It could be enough to frighten or panic the uninitiated. The caution; is to not be casual about spinning your RV-6 or 7 just because you have done a few spins in a C-150, champ, citabria, etc.
The tandem seat RV's tend to spin a little more like what most pilots have taken spins in
but it is still a good idea to get an experienced instructor or RV pilot to ride along for your first exposure to RV spins if you have not done that type of maneuver for a while.
frankh
Well Known Member
see this
Shows a 5.5 trun in my the 7a with opposite aileron...Might give you an idea for the 7 at least.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rK5DiNyEuzQ
Frank
Shows a 5.5 trun in my the 7a with opposite aileron...Might give you an idea for the 7 at least.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rK5DiNyEuzQ
Frank
Bill Wightman
Well Known Member
RV4 spin characteristics:
Not sure if the 8 will spin like the 4, but the 4 was not a good spinning airplane. Here's what I found out:
First off, the RV4 has almost no pre-stall buffet. This is due to its forward-loaded airfoil, and wing with no wash-out. I did extensive stall/spin testing of my 4 throughout its flight envelope. I had a hard time discerning any prestall buffet, at any speed, flaps up or down. If stalled at 1g, the airplane will break without warning. Recovery is immediate if back pressure is relaxed. When stalled at greater than 1g (accelerated stalls) the 4 also presents the pilot with no discernible buffet and will aggressively roll if yaw is present.
Uncoordinated stalls: If inadvertently snapped or spun, the RV4 will positively respond to recovery inputs. If simply ham-fisted into a stall with yaw present, it will sharply stall and roll. But if entered from an accelerated stall at 3-4 g's the airplane is easily capable of snapping through 90 degrees of roll. Recovery is simply a matter of taking out the inputs that got you there, but this can be counter-intuitive if you're not trained properly.
Fully developed spins: My airplane would take about 3 full turns to stabilize in a fully developed spin. When spun at forward CG (fixed pitch aircraft: pilot with 3/4 fuel only) my 4 would stabilize at about 45 degrees nose low and spin rate was about a full turn per second. The elevator and rudder would aerodynamically lock against their stops nose-up and pro-spin respectively. The first time I did this, it was an eye-opener (good thing I started at 14000 feet). Positioning the controls neutral, which took more force than I thought, did not recover the airplane within one full turn. So, I decelerated the spin (full aft stick) and then quickly gave it full-opposite rudder followed by full-down elevator, which did produce a recovery. I paid out about 5000 feet and broke an exhaust mount in doing all this. My RV4 was not a docile spinning airplane, in my opinion.
The Beggs-Mueller recovery would NOT recover the airplane. I had to "pop" it out of the spin, which is what was taught in USAF-UPT for the T37 spin recovery.
Not sure if the 8 will spin like the 4, but the 4 was not a good spinning airplane. Here's what I found out:
First off, the RV4 has almost no pre-stall buffet. This is due to its forward-loaded airfoil, and wing with no wash-out. I did extensive stall/spin testing of my 4 throughout its flight envelope. I had a hard time discerning any prestall buffet, at any speed, flaps up or down. If stalled at 1g, the airplane will break without warning. Recovery is immediate if back pressure is relaxed. When stalled at greater than 1g (accelerated stalls) the 4 also presents the pilot with no discernible buffet and will aggressively roll if yaw is present.
Uncoordinated stalls: If inadvertently snapped or spun, the RV4 will positively respond to recovery inputs. If simply ham-fisted into a stall with yaw present, it will sharply stall and roll. But if entered from an accelerated stall at 3-4 g's the airplane is easily capable of snapping through 90 degrees of roll. Recovery is simply a matter of taking out the inputs that got you there, but this can be counter-intuitive if you're not trained properly.
Fully developed spins: My airplane would take about 3 full turns to stabilize in a fully developed spin. When spun at forward CG (fixed pitch aircraft: pilot with 3/4 fuel only) my 4 would stabilize at about 45 degrees nose low and spin rate was about a full turn per second. The elevator and rudder would aerodynamically lock against their stops nose-up and pro-spin respectively. The first time I did this, it was an eye-opener (good thing I started at 14000 feet). Positioning the controls neutral, which took more force than I thought, did not recover the airplane within one full turn. So, I decelerated the spin (full aft stick) and then quickly gave it full-opposite rudder followed by full-down elevator, which did produce a recovery. I paid out about 5000 feet and broke an exhaust mount in doing all this. My RV4 was not a docile spinning airplane, in my opinion.
The Beggs-Mueller recovery would NOT recover the airplane. I had to "pop" it out of the spin, which is what was taught in USAF-UPT for the T37 spin recovery.
Top_prop
Well Known Member
Millitary spin recovery?
Wish I had some time in an RV to chime in about their spins and recovery techniques... But with over 1500 Hrs as a T-34C instructor I spin regularly...
First of all some may need to review the difference between a spin and a spiral... if we (T-34C pilots) use aileron to enter during a spin we tend to get a spiral (the wing is not fully stalled in a spiral)... aircraft equiped with an AoA gauge can quickly reveal a spiral instead of a spin... important to know becuase spiral recovery technique is typicaly neutral controls, power to idle. Both look very similiar when just looking out side... especially at the entry and first few turns... we specifically get spin/spiral out of control flight training hops every 6 months.
In a spiral airspeed typically will continue to increase, and rapidly approach VNE... it very important to scan airspeed when attempting spins/spirals.
The aircraft wing is always completely stalled in a spin, yaw is applied for the entry and both must be maintained through out the entry, it will take a few rotations for the aircraft to settle into the spin... these first few rotations are called the incipient spin... usually positively nuetralizing the controls and reducing power to idle will recover from this phase (just like recovering from a spiral)... If you continue to keep the aircraft stalled and yawed through the incipient phase you then enter the steady state spin, Called 'steady' because both the airspeed and rate of rotation will typically stabilize out. Some aircraft are designed to not, or be very difficult to enter a steady state spin. The T-34 C was fitted with ventral strakes to dampen its rate of roll in a spin...
Side bar: looking at the RV-12 spin trials video on youtube it looked to me to show that aircraft to be very difficult to spin and quick to recover from the incipient and steady state... but all I had was the view out side and that isn't really worth much as I said about spirals earlier. Looking at various RV-7/8 videos on you tube showed them to have a somewhat faster roll rate than what I typically see in the T-34, though left vs right spins typically vary in roll rate due to the prop's direction of turn...
Once in a steady state spin the recovery depends on the aircraft, In the T-34C if you release the controls (called the millitary technique above) the stick/yoke will float around some point and the rudders will as well... making small oscilations round this point... Typically the aircraft will not recover with out positive inputs. In 6 years of spinning this aircraft I have not seen a single one recover on its own.
From my limited reading the 'self recovering' aircraft, are typicaly extreemly stabil platforms and extremly difficult to get to spin anyways... or fly by wire machines.
Hence my concern with the "military recovery techinque"... some fly by wire jets will recover themselves, I'll have to check with my F-18 buddies but I think the procedure is to neutralize the controls, not 'let go of the controls' but who cares how a fly by wire recovers anyways... this is an RV/light civil forum...
I've never seen anything taught other than the following when you get that "uh oh" I shouldn't have done that feeling:
If control inputs generate normal respones: you are in control and need to use appropriate unusual attitude/stall recovery technique.
If control inputs do not yield expected results, you are out of control:
1. Neutralize the controls / power to idle. (this should get you out of everything but a steady state spin).
2. Altitude check (you may be running out of options and need to bail out)
3. Check your instruments (an AoA guage helps here, along with knowlege of your steady state spin airspeed)
If you are not in a steady state spin, neutralizing the controls (center the rudder, elevator, aileron) will get you out. The aircraft's designed stability will recover the airfraft in a nose low attitude. Once the rotation has stopped, Look up, if you see blue sky pull, if you see ground roll, then pull. Check oil pressure and add power to get away from the ground.
If your instruments reveal you are in a steady state spin,
1. raise the gear and flaps
2 apply rudder opposite the turn needle
3 stick neutral or forward of neutral depending on the spin. The T-34 requires neutral for inverted spins, and just foward of neutral for errect (upright) spins due to the horizontal stabilizier blocking air flow over the rudder during an erect spin.
Next week I'll give a discertation on why its AERObatics, not ACRObatics when you perform them in a aircraft.. Sorry for the miss spellings... I'm bad at spelling and my two year old wants to go to PBS Kids.org!
Tom
Wish I had some time in an RV to chime in about their spins and recovery techniques... But with over 1500 Hrs as a T-34C instructor I spin regularly...
First of all some may need to review the difference between a spin and a spiral... if we (T-34C pilots) use aileron to enter during a spin we tend to get a spiral (the wing is not fully stalled in a spiral)... aircraft equiped with an AoA gauge can quickly reveal a spiral instead of a spin... important to know becuase spiral recovery technique is typicaly neutral controls, power to idle. Both look very similiar when just looking out side... especially at the entry and first few turns... we specifically get spin/spiral out of control flight training hops every 6 months.
In a spiral airspeed typically will continue to increase, and rapidly approach VNE... it very important to scan airspeed when attempting spins/spirals.
The aircraft wing is always completely stalled in a spin, yaw is applied for the entry and both must be maintained through out the entry, it will take a few rotations for the aircraft to settle into the spin... these first few rotations are called the incipient spin... usually positively nuetralizing the controls and reducing power to idle will recover from this phase (just like recovering from a spiral)... If you continue to keep the aircraft stalled and yawed through the incipient phase you then enter the steady state spin, Called 'steady' because both the airspeed and rate of rotation will typically stabilize out. Some aircraft are designed to not, or be very difficult to enter a steady state spin. The T-34 C was fitted with ventral strakes to dampen its rate of roll in a spin...
Side bar: looking at the RV-12 spin trials video on youtube it looked to me to show that aircraft to be very difficult to spin and quick to recover from the incipient and steady state... but all I had was the view out side and that isn't really worth much as I said about spirals earlier. Looking at various RV-7/8 videos on you tube showed them to have a somewhat faster roll rate than what I typically see in the T-34, though left vs right spins typically vary in roll rate due to the prop's direction of turn...
Once in a steady state spin the recovery depends on the aircraft, In the T-34C if you release the controls (called the millitary technique above) the stick/yoke will float around some point and the rudders will as well... making small oscilations round this point... Typically the aircraft will not recover with out positive inputs. In 6 years of spinning this aircraft I have not seen a single one recover on its own.
From my limited reading the 'self recovering' aircraft, are typicaly extreemly stabil platforms and extremly difficult to get to spin anyways... or fly by wire machines.
Hence my concern with the "military recovery techinque"... some fly by wire jets will recover themselves, I'll have to check with my F-18 buddies but I think the procedure is to neutralize the controls, not 'let go of the controls' but who cares how a fly by wire recovers anyways... this is an RV/light civil forum...
I've never seen anything taught other than the following when you get that "uh oh" I shouldn't have done that feeling:
If control inputs generate normal respones: you are in control and need to use appropriate unusual attitude/stall recovery technique.
If control inputs do not yield expected results, you are out of control:
1. Neutralize the controls / power to idle. (this should get you out of everything but a steady state spin).
2. Altitude check (you may be running out of options and need to bail out)
3. Check your instruments (an AoA guage helps here, along with knowlege of your steady state spin airspeed)
If you are not in a steady state spin, neutralizing the controls (center the rudder, elevator, aileron) will get you out. The aircraft's designed stability will recover the airfraft in a nose low attitude. Once the rotation has stopped, Look up, if you see blue sky pull, if you see ground roll, then pull. Check oil pressure and add power to get away from the ground.
If your instruments reveal you are in a steady state spin,
1. raise the gear and flaps
2 apply rudder opposite the turn needle
3 stick neutral or forward of neutral depending on the spin. The T-34 requires neutral for inverted spins, and just foward of neutral for errect (upright) spins due to the horizontal stabilizier blocking air flow over the rudder during an erect spin.
Next week I'll give a discertation on why its AERObatics, not ACRObatics when you perform them in a aircraft..
Sorry for the miss spellings... I'm bad at spelling and my two year old wants to go to PBS Kids.org! Tom
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I am not a CFI (so correct me if I am wrong), and I know I am being picky...
But wouldn't the correct statement be that One of the wings (meaning left or right) is completely stalled in a spin (or spin entry). It is the wing that is not fully stalled that is producing the rotation. Correct?
Bill Wightman
Well Known Member
"Military Spin Recovery" not a standard
Tom - Sounds like you've done enough laps around the flag pole to know the T-34C like the back of your hand. I know the Tweet pretty well myself, with 1,999 instructor hours in it. The T37 was designed to auto-rotate in a spin. The USAF wanted all graduates to know what it was like to have to force an airplane out of a spin. The Tweet has spin strakes on the nose to make it auto-rotate on purpose.
Its been about 20 years, but T-37 spin boldface (memory checklist) was:
1) Throttles - idle
2) Rudder and ailerons - neutral
3) Stick - abruptly full aft and hold
4) Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction (opposite turn needle) and hold
5) Stick - abruptly full forward one turn after applying rudder
6) Controls - neutral after spinning stops and recover from dive
Note the first two steps might recover an airplane in an incipient spin phase. If no recovery is made after neutralizing the controls, the stick would then be held full aft to decelerate the spin. This would set up the airplane for a "pop out" type of recovery. This is what I did in my RV4 after conventional anti-spin inputs didn't work.
Also, note the reference to the turn needle. This is to orient the pilot in case the aircraft departs into a spin in IMC or at night where good visual cues might not be present. This also works if you're spinning inverted and don't know it.
One interesting note: It was possible, if done slowly, to take a T37 from a fully developed spin and get the controls into full anti-spin positions (full opposite rudder and full nose down stick) with NO recovery. The roll rate and descent rate at that point was eye-popping indeed. I ate up over 14,000 feet in doing this intentionally one day with another instructor. FUN!!
To the point regards the RV8: The best advice I can give is to get some training. Preferably with someone who has a few thousand hours teaching stuff like this, and preferably in an airplane that's good to demo spins. If you ever get stall+yaw and see the nose tracking horizontally, immediately work to eliminate those factors. Reduce AOA on the wing (relax back pressure or possibly force the nose lower) and apply anti-spin rudder to arrest the yaw. Your RV should respond positively to those inputs.
Fly safe!
Tom - Sounds like you've done enough laps around the flag pole to know the T-34C like the back of your hand. I know the Tweet pretty well myself, with 1,999 instructor hours in it. The T37 was designed to auto-rotate in a spin. The USAF wanted all graduates to know what it was like to have to force an airplane out of a spin. The Tweet has spin strakes on the nose to make it auto-rotate on purpose.
Its been about 20 years, but T-37 spin boldface (memory checklist) was:
1) Throttles - idle
2) Rudder and ailerons - neutral
3) Stick - abruptly full aft and hold
4) Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction (opposite turn needle) and hold
5) Stick - abruptly full forward one turn after applying rudder
6) Controls - neutral after spinning stops and recover from dive
Note the first two steps might recover an airplane in an incipient spin phase. If no recovery is made after neutralizing the controls, the stick would then be held full aft to decelerate the spin. This would set up the airplane for a "pop out" type of recovery. This is what I did in my RV4 after conventional anti-spin inputs didn't work.
Also, note the reference to the turn needle. This is to orient the pilot in case the aircraft departs into a spin in IMC or at night where good visual cues might not be present. This also works if you're spinning inverted and don't know it.
One interesting note: It was possible, if done slowly, to take a T37 from a fully developed spin and get the controls into full anti-spin positions (full opposite rudder and full nose down stick) with NO recovery. The roll rate and descent rate at that point was eye-popping indeed. I ate up over 14,000 feet in doing this intentionally one day with another instructor. FUN!!
To the point regards the RV8: The best advice I can give is to get some training. Preferably with someone who has a few thousand hours teaching stuff like this, and preferably in an airplane that's good to demo spins. If you ever get stall+yaw and see the nose tracking horizontally, immediately work to eliminate those factors. Reduce AOA on the wing (relax back pressure or possibly force the nose lower) and apply anti-spin rudder to arrest the yaw. Your RV should respond positively to those inputs.
Fly safe!
DGlaeser
Well Known Member
They are both stalled...
No - both wings are stalled, but not equally. Lots of things can produce the initial rotation. The unequal lift from the (unequally) stalled wings helps the plane to stay in the spin.
Bill Wightman
Well Known Member
Spin yaw forces explained
Not quite. In a fully developed spin, BOTH wings are fully stalled. The thing to take note of is that the inside wing is stalled more deeply than the other.
I'll give you the short explanation: Two factors must be present to spin a conventional airplane: STALL and YAW. They must be present together (at the same time) to produce a spin entry. The stall part is easy to understand for most pilots, but remember the yaw can come from a rudder input or something like lots of P-factor, or significant aileron deflection.
Once the airplane enters the spin, a drag differential develops between the inside and outside wings. The speed difference between the two wings drives an angle of attack differential between them. The inside wing has a slower forward speed, and thus a higher AOA. It is more fully stalled and thus generates more drag than the outer wing. Remember, both wings are stalled and are operating well past their max lift AOA's. Increases in AOA in this regime drive drag higher very quickly.
It is this drag differential between the wings that overcomes the vertical tail's stabilizing influence. If the drag differential is great enough, the airplane will auto-rotate. Propellers on the nose of an aircraft will also contribute to yaw instability, and this is exacerbated with power applied. The fuselage also has significant influence on yaw forces depending on how its area is distributed (edit).
Our RV aircraft have rectangle wings. They carry lots of area well outboard. This excessive outboard area contributes to generating high differential drag forces that can overpower our vertical tail if allowed to build sufficiently. I think its one reason my RV4 didn't want to recover until I gave her a slap in the butt.
And, sorry for the long post, but one really important thing to remember is that untrained intuition will produce exactly the opposite of what's required to get an airplane out of a spin. The nose low, the stalled wings, and the rolling motion all make the untrained pilot want to PULL UP, and ROLL AWAY from the spin. This only drives the wing deeper into the stall and the anti-spin aileron input will only make the drag differential worse. At my home field, we lost one guy in a Sidewinder after he spun on departure leg. Rode it all the way in - too bad he wasn't trained.
Fly safe!
Not quite. In a fully developed spin, BOTH wings are fully stalled. The thing to take note of is that the inside wing is stalled more deeply than the other.
I'll give you the short explanation: Two factors must be present to spin a conventional airplane: STALL and YAW. They must be present together (at the same time) to produce a spin entry. The stall part is easy to understand for most pilots, but remember the yaw can come from a rudder input or something like lots of P-factor, or significant aileron deflection.
Once the airplane enters the spin, a drag differential develops between the inside and outside wings. The speed difference between the two wings drives an angle of attack differential between them. The inside wing has a slower forward speed, and thus a higher AOA. It is more fully stalled and thus generates more drag than the outer wing. Remember, both wings are stalled and are operating well past their max lift AOA's. Increases in AOA in this regime drive drag higher very quickly.
It is this drag differential between the wings that overcomes the vertical tail's stabilizing influence. If the drag differential is great enough, the airplane will auto-rotate. Propellers on the nose of an aircraft will also contribute to yaw instability, and this is exacerbated with power applied. The fuselage also has significant influence on yaw forces depending on how its area is distributed (edit).
Our RV aircraft have rectangle wings. They carry lots of area well outboard. This excessive outboard area contributes to generating high differential drag forces that can overpower our vertical tail if allowed to build sufficiently. I think its one reason my RV4 didn't want to recover until I gave her a slap in the butt.
And, sorry for the long post, but one really important thing to remember is that untrained intuition will produce exactly the opposite of what's required to get an airplane out of a spin. The nose low, the stalled wings, and the rolling motion all make the untrained pilot want to PULL UP, and ROLL AWAY from the spin. This only drives the wing deeper into the stall and the anti-spin aileron input will only make the drag differential worse. At my home field, we lost one guy in a Sidewinder after he spun on departure leg. Rode it all the way in - too bad he wasn't trained.
Fly safe!
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Top_prop
Well Known Member
Bill,
Please don't appollogize I enjoyed both your posts on page 2 emensly.
I think you hit the nail on the head here... spirals look and feel the same and illicite the same 'wrong' natural response as well...
That is why we teach our students to spin on their 7th or 8th flight and they continue to spin all the way until they start formation... they then can recognize and get out of the only thing Neutral/Idle won't get them out of in a T-34C. We lost an IP a few years back to a spiral... he thought he was in a spin and applied spin recovery technique and rode it into the dirt.... almost certainly exceeding VNE before he smacked the earth...
Top_prop
Well Known Member
Spining... the simple basic aero
Bill got it right above as I remember it from from my ground school all the way to getting instruction on teaching spins in the T-34c...
Spin's require:
1 complete stall of both wings
2 a source of yaw
3 both applied for a sufficient amount of time to produce the steady state spin
anything else will not be a spin, but something else (like a spiral)
Of note, a spiral to the left in the T-34 will indicate a stalled AoA (the AoA probe is on the left wing) and will look identical to a spin except the airspeed will continue to build rapidly approacing VNE (280kias for the mighty turbo mentor)... I got in a arguement with a guy who just finished Navy Test Pilot school and was getting introduction training to the T-34. He insisted it was impossible to be in a spiral and have any wing stalled... only spins have stalled wings... he didn't change his mind after reading our Out of Control Flight Training Instruction But did once he took a hop in the T-34.
So what's my point? After doing this for six years in an aircraft rung out by Navy Test pilots just about the time I was born I've learned:
1. Be careful, this stuff has killed a lot of smart pilots...
2. Neutral Idle is your friend in a good stabil aircraft
3. Know your steady state spin speed, if neutral idle doesn't get you out and if you see stalled AoA and that airspeed, its probably a spin.
Bill got it right above as I remember it from from my ground school all the way to getting instruction on teaching spins in the T-34c...
Spin's require:
1 complete stall of both wings
2 a source of yaw
3 both applied for a sufficient amount of time to produce the steady state spin
anything else will not be a spin, but something else (like a spiral)
Of note, a spiral to the left in the T-34 will indicate a stalled AoA (the AoA probe is on the left wing) and will look identical to a spin except the airspeed will continue to build rapidly approacing VNE (280kias for the mighty turbo mentor)... I got in a arguement with a guy who just finished Navy Test Pilot school and was getting introduction training to the T-34. He insisted it was impossible to be in a spiral and have any wing stalled... only spins have stalled wings... he didn't change his mind after reading our Out of Control Flight Training Instruction But did once he took a hop in the T-34.
So what's my point? After doing this for six years in an aircraft rung out by Navy Test pilots just about the time I was born I've learned:
1. Be careful, this stuff has killed a lot of smart pilots...
2. Neutral Idle is your friend in a good stabil aircraft
3. Know your steady state spin speed, if neutral idle doesn't get you out and if you see stalled AoA and that airspeed, its probably a spin.
Kahuna
Moderatoring
Don,
Not all 8's are created the same in spin entry and ability. The 8's in particular have lots of cg range unlike the SbS's. Some 8's wont spin at all, they just spiral. Generally speaking the heavy nosed 8's have trouble with a fwd CG. Others, like yours with that light engine prop you have, have a more aft CG and spin well. As I recall, I dont think yours has been spun. Assuming I have the right Don here, I do not recommend based on your flight experience that you attempt this. You may have been asking a generic question just to get technique in your head for the inadvertent spin, but if it is to go fly it, please have an expeienced 8 pilot put it into phase 1 and complete a full envelope work up on that plane. I hope I have the right Atlanta Don here. Is this the same Don whos plane I flew? You bought it flying and its a 160hp FP right?
Best,
