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Engine Choices

joew

Well Known Member
Hope everyone is doing well. Thanks in advance for your input to what I'm putting out. I am getting to the part of the build where I need to start spending real money. Im taking out a HELOC for the engine, firewall fwd and panel. I wanted a plug and play panel (IFR G3X) and a IO-360- AND be able to finish and afford to fly....... Panels (plug and play) are over 30K, same as engines- (for the most part) ...not counting prop.

SO, I will cut the WAAS box from the panel and do it myself.... should save me some cash.

Engine wise, Im looking at everything- a timed out motor, and building it myself. It may save money or may not....depends on how the core was treated...I get that. At the end, I have a rebuild, amateur build... untested engine with questionable resale value down the road.

I called Superior and priced their "kit". 17K with no accessories, 22 w/ accessories. New motor, amateur build, no warranty- questionable resale value.

I called Titan, who recommended a shop to build me their kit (they do not sell kits for the general builder). Titan can build one, ready to go for around 27K. Factory built, warranty, new....has value when I go to sell down the road (I hope).

The shop Titan recommended said a "kit" would run between 24 to 27K, or he could build me a "piece-parts" engine for 17K.... sounded good. I asked if the parts would be yellow-tagged (airworthy)? He said "I thought you wanted experimental?"....... I said I do, but I want a airworthy motor. He assured me the "important parts" would meet spec. Cylinders, crank, pistons, etc. The case would be a "little" out of spec as would the cam.

Said "the engine would run better being a little out of spec"......Im sure it would, but I would like to make TBO. I thanked him for his time, made a mental note to myself and moved on.

Is there anything I am overlooking. If I build the motor, screw it up, it will get real quiet and I will be landing shortly. If I screw up the panel, I will blow a CB. Seems like the factory new may be the better option.

Vans prices for Lycoming are high. I will probably go with Titan or Superior. Haven heard back from Air Sport or Barrett yet.

Any other options I am not seeing?


Joe
 
All the MAJOR shops that advertise can build you a good engine. My experience has been that they are all close on price so the one that is closest to you or the one that gives you the best "feeling" is the one to go with. G&N Aircraft is another shop that is not too far away that may be able to help. I have not used them but have landed at Griffith, IN a few times and they appear to have a good facility.

Other options are to find a local A&P that has experience and can help you build up the engine that you want. It is possible to have the bottom end of an engine assembled at a shop and you the aircraft builder do the installation of the cylinders and accessories providing that you know a little about aircraft engines or have an A&P that can help. This may not save you any money but would give you an education.
 
Joe,
Another great option that worked well for me: I bought the 2012 Vans Sun-n-Fun special. Factory new YIO-360M1B (uncertified) with new Sensinich experimental FP cruise prop. The special came as a fully assembled engine with magnetos and starter attached, pickled/bagged/boxed for long-term storage and free shipping. Engine is non-certified, which means I didn't buy the $7000 piece of paper with the word "Certified" on it, and yet it's the exact same engine as the certified version (same warranty, even).

Now, who knows what Vans will offer in 2016 (if anything), but I submit it's worth your while to wait and see. :cool:
 
The Van's OEM deal is a very conservative way to go and the show prices are hard to beat.

Everyone will have their own favorite kit builder. In my opinion, you can't be Barrett Precision Engines. Allen and Rhonda will always provide solid advice (even if you aren't a customer). They're just good people.

I can also put you in touch with a group of RV'ers in Medina. It's always nice to have some local experts to lean on for advice.

bob
 
Dismantled airplanes.

There are several airplane disassemblers across the USA with varying engine times and they'll ship to you.

Best,
 
Engine wise, Im looking at everything- a timed out motor, and building it myself. It may save money or may not....depends on how the core was treated...I get that. At the end, I have a rebuild, amateur build... untested engine with questionable resale value down the road.

I called Superior and priced their "kit". 17K with no accessories, 22 w/ accessories. New motor, amateur build, no warranty- questionable resale value.

I called Titan, who recommended a shop to build me their kit (they do not sell kits for the general builder). Titan can build one, ready to go for around 27K. Factory built, warranty, new....has value when I go to sell down the road (I hope).

The shop Titan recommended said a "kit" would run between 24 to 27K, or he could build me a "piece-parts" engine for 17K.... sounded good. I asked if the parts would be yellow-tagged (airworthy)? He said "I thought you wanted experimental?"....... I said I do, but I want a airworthy motor. He assured me the "important parts" would meet spec. Cylinders, crank, pistons, etc. The case would be a "little" out of spec as would the cam.

Said "the engine would run better being a little out of spec"......Im sure it would, but I would like to make TBO. I thanked him for his time, made a mental note to myself and moved on.

Is there anything I am overlooking. If I build the motor, screw it up, it will get real quiet and I will be landing shortly. If I screw up the panel, I will blow a CB. Seems like the factory new may be the better option.

Vans prices for Lycoming are high. I will probably go with Titan or Superior. Haven heard back from Air Sport or Barrett yet.

Any other options I am not seeing?


Joe
Joe, I think your thoughts on any of the used and "experimental" options are selling short the value of these engines. I could be totally wrong on this based on my own perceptions but your statements sound like you have your own biased perceptions of the quality, and value, of anything except certificated engines. I personally think your idea that having an "experimental" engine (auto conversion engines not withstanding) will detract from the quality or the value is misguided. There are many, many extremely nice RVs out there flying behind non traditional certificated engines that I would bet have just as much value in the market place as do those RVs with certificated engines in them. It is my opinion that one should not sell short the type of engine your engine shop guy quoted you. Assuming you work with a reputable engine shop and with reputable parts, having an FAA piece of paper is not going to make an engine better or worse than any other engine. The same can be said for an engine without that FAA piece of paper.

My .02 worth, and of course only worth what you payed for it, which means it is not really even worth .02. :D

Live Long and Prosper!
 
Oh, please don't misunderstand. I appreciate all of the input. I am not selling short any option and am in fact looking to go experimental. I'm selling short my ability to put together a reliable engine( maybe too experimental). The shop I had called who suggested a "piece parts" motor made it sound like he would use some (not all) parts that may have been red tagged- again maybe too experimental. Titan and superior both are experimental and would consider them.

Speaking to mechanic friends of mine, who try to make money, have said that the prices are so close, that they recommended for the piece of mind, have the factory or a larger well known shop do it instead of myself that it maybe money well spent VS doing a build on my own.

I'm not done searching yet. I plan to stick with experimental. I have bounced back and forth so much...

I am in touch with the Medina RV guys and have been pinging them.

Appreciate your advice and time
 
Red Tag Parts

A couple examples of red tag parts that I would not hesitate to use if everything else was to specs.
Lycoming 0 320 crankshaft, fresh from a reputable overhaul. Crank flange thickness is .001 below limit. Solid flange crank, no lightening holes, this crank is far better than an older crank with lightening holes that has been yellow tagged. Typically in the under $1000 range vs $3000 for yellow tagged.

Crankcase; deck height a couple thousands below limit for certification. This is simply not an issue for experimental issues as long as the accessory case and sump still fit. It does raise the compression very slightly. You may find an overhauled case that is slightly out of deck height limits but otherwise fine
for about half the price of a fresh yellow tagged case.
 
When it was time for my engine I went to a reputable engine shop to build my own engine. I spent two days in their shop with their tools and expertise at my disposal. They had a dedicated experienced engine builder help me build my personal engine for two days. Ok, really, he built it with the knowledge he transferred to me as I turned the wrenches to torque down every nut and bolt on the engine. It was a great experience that allowed me to learn some details about the inner workings of my engine. I would not have traded that experience for anything. You might consider going that option as well. Not sure if it would save any money but the experience of being able to examine every single piece all the way down to the smallest washer and cotter key was priceless.
 
If you're not in a big hurry, the 2016 Engine Guide will be in the February issue of Kitplanes, this time (drum roll) with prices.

Which shop was quoting "experimental" motors with used, non-yellow tagged parts?
 
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You are building an airplane for the first time, I suspect, and have learned as you built. The engine is no different, but to ease your fear, phone a friendly A&P in your area and have him/her assist with the build.

The technology is from the middle of the last century :D
 
When you built your engine with a local shop, was it a kit engine or a run out core that you overhauled?
 
Not all motors have to cost 20+K.

I picked up an O-320 150hp with 1400 hours off a Cherokee 140 for $4000. Sent everything off to DivCo and Aircraft Specialties. $2500. New cylinders another $4000. I have a local AI that used to work at Lycoming helping me put it all together. I should have way less than 12K when I'm all done for a complete overhauled engine that is "yellow tagged" as you say and signed off.

You can get a very good engine if you are willing to do some scrounging around and doing some things yourself.
 
A&P

The AI that used to work at Lycoming would likely be an excellent choice. The "friendly local A&P" probably not.
I am not an A&P by choice. 50 plus years in aviation has been a continuing education regarding how little the average A&P knows about such things as overhauling/assembling engines, repair of structural welded steel assemblies, etc.
My first two years in aviation were at an approved repair station where the two A&P/AI's did not know how to weld and I did all the welding.
This is not meant to be anti A&P, simply a reality check on the limitations of the average A&P.
 
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