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which automotive alternator to use

N

Nehi

Member
I'm doing engine instalation on my 9-A ,using 0-290 D2B with a bottom case mount alternator bracket from Vans (not the boss mount)
I would like to use a standard alternator from the local parts house but the selection would take a day to find one that fits best. am looking for a 35-50 amp range, internal reg.
Happy for any opinions or imput !
PS : Vans had a 35 amp in old cataloge but not in the new
 
Geico266 said:
Don't mess around with an alternator that is spinning backwards.
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Exactly.

That's why you should use one from a pre-2000 Honda 4-cylinder car. Hondas of that vintage run "backwards" compared to almost all other car engines, which is the same direction as Lycomings. The best one to use is for an '85-'87 Honda Civic. The casting has the tensioning ear in the right place to fit nicely on a Lyc, it's rated at 55A, and internally regulated. If you want to make it run-away-proof, modify it like this article I wrote. Only drawback to using this alternator is you'll have to replace the multi-rib pulley with a V-pulley. That will take you less than 5 minutes to switch out with an impact wrench.

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6, flying
 
anyone know of an alternator that spins the right direction and is EXTERNALLY regulated?
 
very happy

87 suzuki samuri alternator has lifetime warranty from auto zone, internal reg, 60 amp,compact, usually last about 400 hrs. have been very happy. :)
 
tmbg said:
anyone know of an alternator that spins the right direction and is EXTERNALLY regulated?
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The original 35a alternator that Vans sold for years is a NipponDenso as used on 1976-1979 Honda Civic CVCC without air conditioning. A common number you can find in Duralast and other reman alternators is 14184. The Beck/Arnley number is 186-0100. No problems with running the alternator "backwards" and you can leave the stock fan in place. A blast tube to the rear of the alternator is a good idea for diode cooling. A 1975 Ford regulator works great with this unit. You should be able to purchase alternator and regulator for less than 50 bucks. As long as you own the 1979 Honda you have a lifetime warranty. ;)

Alternator

Regulator
 
I have a used B&C 35-40 amp (researching - it is a few years old) aircraft alternator plus voltage regulator with voltage warning light. I upgraded to 60 amp internally regulated.

PM me if interested.
 
mine came from a toyota tercel with AC 70 amp internal reg i installed the larger pully 150 hours and not a problem

ken in maine
 
Alternator

If you use a Plane Power alternator that is Internally regulated do you still need the Voltage Regulator from BC? I have the LR3 Voltage Regulator that B and C specialty sells. Do I still use this if I buy an alternator that is internally regulated?
 
I also used the 1987 Suzuki Samuri alternator on my RV9a. It is an internally regulated 55 amp unit that is the same size/shape as the unit sold by Plane Power. I bought mine at a NAPA auto parts store and it came with a lifetime guarantee. It currently has 200 hrs on it, no blast tubes, and the voltage has been rock solid. So far so good. If I remember correctly this model was only available as an overhauled unit by several commercial rebuilders---I chose the Bosch rebuilt unit simply because of the Bosch reputation. I think it cost me around $150 w/o a core to exchange. I got the idea for this unit from the rocket boy site mentioned above.

Cheers,
db
 
db1yg said:
I also used the 1987 Suzuki Samuri alternator on my RV9a. It is an internally regulated 55 amp unit that is the same size/shape as the unit sold by Plane Power. I bought mine at a NAPA auto parts store and it came with a lifetime guarantee. It currently has 200 hrs on it, no blast tubes, and the voltage has been rock solid. So far so good. If I remember correctly this model was only available as an overhauled unit by several commercial rebuilders---I chose the Bosch rebuilt unit simply because of the Bosch reputation. I think it cost me around $150 w/o a core to exchange. I got the idea for this unit from the rocket boy site mentioned above.

Cheers,
db
Click to expand...

Does it have over voltage protection?
 
protection

i have a 50 amp breaker in line after the alternator. does this qualify as surge protection?
 
turbo said:
i have a 50 amp breaker in line after the alternator. does this qualify as surge protection?
Click to expand...

Nope. Overvoltage will fry radios, EFIS, transponders, ECT. and never pop a breaker. A buddy of mine lost about $10K in avionics due to overvotage using an auto alt. The voltage regulator failed and took out just about everything.

I'm not trying to start a war, and I'm not an electrical guru, just telling you to make sure you install over voltage protection for a runaway regulator. Plane Power has over voltage protection built right in, the are designed for aircraft. Don't be penny wise, and pound foolish.

JMHO
 
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vonjet said:
If you use a Plane Power alternator that is Internally regulated do you still need the Voltage Regulator from BC? I have the LR3 Voltage Regulator that B and C specialty sells. Do I still use this if I buy an alternator that is internally regulated?
Click to expand...

No, you cannot use an external voltage regulator with an internally regulated unit. The regulator reduces field power going to the alternator, and the two regulators may "fight" each other and damage one or both.

If you use an internally regulated model, you should have a) a switch to turn off field power to the alternator (turns it off) and b) a low/high voltage warning system. This is built in to most EFIS units out there - you just have to configure the parameters at which you receive the warning. Too low means the alternator is not working; too high means shut it off - now!
 
breister said:
Too low means the alternator is not working; too high means shut it off - now!
Click to expand...

How long does it take for a run away / high voltage regulator to do damage to avionics? :confused: Hopefully, you'll notice the EFIS warning (for those airplanes that have an EFIS) AND you'll know what to do in a nano second or two.
 
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Less time...

Geico266 said:
How long does it take for a run away / high voltage regulator to do damage to avionics? :confused: Hopefully, you'll notice the EFIS warning (for those airplanes that have an EFIS) AND you'll know what to do in a nano second or two.
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...than it takes you to see a warning light and move your finger to an on/off switch...:D

Have an electronic over-voltage system installed, either as a stand-alone item that breaks the field wire.

http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 (2/3 way down the page)

...or built into the voltage regulator.

http://www.bandc.biz/LR3B14desc.html
 
have you ever seen an overvoltage condition? ive been installing altenators for 20 years and have only seen one and it was not really overvoltage but high @ 15.5 Vs. what is the occurence rate of the o/v condition. I think the b&c is a good soulution and will add that to mine prior to my first flight...thanks gill for adding a bullet to my list.:rolleyes: geez just when you think your getting close you find out you need a new float, mags are **** and maybe cylinders...when does it ever end
 
Worried about transients? Here's an easy way to prevent them from damaging your radios:

http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors.htm

Most modern automotive alternators now have built-on OV protection.

I absolutely, positively, will not have an alternator in any experimental airplane I own that I can't pick up a replacement for locally at an auto parts store. Had a friend have that happen to on a trip we were on, within two hours we were back on our way again.

I've got over 800 hours on a ND alterator that is very similar to the 87 Suzuki, and haven't had a bit of trouble with it.
 
Yes

cytoxin said:
have you ever seen an overvoltage condition? ive been installing altenators for 20 years and have only seen one and it was not really overvoltage but high @ 15.5 Vs. what is the occurence rate of the o/v condition. I think the b&c is a good soulution and will add that to mine prior to my first flight...thanks gill for adding a bullet to my list.:rolleyes: geez just when you think your getting close you find out you need a new float, mags are **** and maybe cylinders...when does it ever end
Click to expand...

Yep ... a friends RV-3 had a physical problem on his field line. The resulting over voltage blew the comm and transponder - his only avionics.

It can happen as one of the alternator/regulator failure modes.

Murphy usually rules...:)

NOTE: I'm talking about true failures here, not a drift in regulated voltage or transients...
 
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az_gila said:
...than it takes you to see a warning light and move your finger to an on/off switch...:D

Have an electronic over-voltage system installed, either as a stand-alone item that breaks the field wire.

http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 (2/3 way down the page)

...or built into the voltage regulator.

http://www.bandc.biz/LR3B14desc.html
Click to expand...

Ah good point, I didn't really think it through.

In my case, all of my electronics are good from 10-28v, so it would have to be one heckuvan overvoltage to do anything worse than burn out a light bulb or two....

If you have equipment that is 14v max then definitely buy the overvoltage protection too.

Have to say, I've never personally seen an overvoltage occur. Several undervoltage / NO voltages, though...
 
breister said:
In my case, all of my electronics are good from 10-28v, so it would have to be one heckuvan overvoltage to do anything worse than burn out a light bulb or two....
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When an alternator runs away, it typically goes to 35-50 volts pretty rapidly. At least, that's what I've seen. The last one I worked on took out the transponder, encoder, all of the "Vans" gauges, and lights. But, the all important Loran survived.
 
cytoxin said:
have you ever seen an overvoltage condition?
Click to expand...

Yep, read post #14 this thread.

RV-9A lost about $10 in avionics after a runaway alternator.

It's your plane, build it and maintain it the way you want. Me, I want OV protection built in.
 
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auto-nator

Hey thanks men!
I went to schucks auto today and got a ND unit for a suki and man this is a nice unit ''ie'' small n clean ! wierd ah, gettin so jazzed about an alternator ! I'm think'n I'll go with the idiot lights so as to monitor the output along with a volt meter.
Thanks Ratman for the lead to the rocketboy site, great info !
 
I'm not an electronics guru either but I know how to get in touch with one. Read on.

A bit more info for you. If you haven't got a copy of the "Aeroelectric "Connection" then get one on order. It's a tech manual but it's written in a way that makes for an easy read.

BUT FIRST! Take a look at Appendix Z of "The Connection", Power Distribution Diagrams and Options. The schematics toward the bottom will give you an idea of what else you will need to order with your copy. For those that haven't seen this in a while, the schematics are updated and re-numbered. Z-11 even has an "automobile alternator" in it. A big change in thinking for the author.

Now that you have a better idea of what you need, surf on over to B and C Specialties where you will find most of what you need to make your install.

Things like current limiters and ammeter/load meter shunts. You will even find the "OVM-14" which gives you the overvoltage protection you will read so much about. This "quarter-size sealed module will tame the meanest runaway alternator in milliseconds."

The one item you will need that they don't have is the voltage regulator. HUGE thanks to Sam for his timely post of the link to Autozone. I picked mine up today, 10 bucks! THANK YOU SAM!!!

One more thing, Robert L. Nuckolls, the author of "The Connection" is easy to get ahold of through his forum on the Matronics site. So if you run into a road block, you can talk to him.
 
Bob N. stuff....

RatMan said:
...
BUT FIRST! Take a look at Appendix Z of "The Connection", Power Distribution Diagrams and Options. The schematics toward the bottom will give you an idea of what else you will need to order with your copy. For those that haven't seen this in a while, the schematics are updated and re-numbered. Z-11 even has an "automobile alternator" in it. A big change in thinking for the author......
Click to expand...

Yes... but note that the automotive alternator he recommends is an externally regulated one.... not the internally regulated ones discussed earlier in this thread.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z11L.pdf

Bob N. also describes here how to dissect a ND auto alternator and remove the regulator....

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Nipon-Denso_Alternator_Mod.pdf

I don't think he has changed his mind on internally regulated auto alternators...
 
az_gila said:
Bob N. also describes here how to dissect a ND auto alternator and remove the regulator....

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Nipon-Denso_Alternator_Mod.pdf
Click to expand...
No, that's a story I wrote (and Bob posted) on how to modify an internally-regulated ND alternator in such a way that it cannot run away, but still keeping it internally regulated. It's an elegant (and cheap) way to keep all the nice technology of the internally-regulated alternator intact and still make it run-away-proof. Anybody that's smart enough to build an airplane can do this mod in under an hour.

Also, I can't fathom why any of you would use anything other than a Honda alternator. An '86 Civic unit has the right casting to work with the various aftermarket brackets, the internal fans go the correct way for Lycoming usage, and they're readily available from autoparts stores. All ya gotta do is swap out the pulley. Big deal.

Also, re-read post #3, y'all.

Heinrich Gerhardt
 
Ooops...

hgerhardt said:
No, that's a story I wrote (and Bob posted) on how to modify an internally-regulated ND alternator in such a way that it cannot run away, but still keeping it internally regulated. It's an elegant (and cheap) way to keep all the nice technology of the internally-regulated alternator intact and still make it run-away-proof. Anybody that's smart enough to build an airplane can do this mod in under an hour.

Also, I can't fathom why any of you would use anything other than a Honda alternator. An '86 Civic unit has the right casting to work with the various aftermarket brackets, the internal fans go the correct way for Lycoming usage, and they're readily available from autoparts stores. All ya gotta do is swap out the pulley. Big deal.

Also, re-read post #3, y'all.

Heinrich Gerhardt
Click to expand...

...my mistake....

I was mixing it up with another posting I can't find...:eek:
 
Not really sure why he has turned the corner about using auto alternators but it seems he has. It's in his book and on one of his most popular schematics.

I do know that there has been one person that has continual challenged his position and he post here OFTEN! Bob says he has purchased a tester for auto alternators and is exploring there use by wiring the test stand per his own schematics.

It's hard to argue with success. Lots of guys have done this and with no problems.

No matter the subject though, there wil still be those that tell you what to do and you're wrong if you do it differently.
 
Well, if the OP is still on the fence I still have a 40 amp B&C Alternator and Regulator for sale. After listening to the various arguments here, I'm not so sure I wish I hadn't bought a Plane Power, but since I bought the RV / auto alternator I DID go ahead and get the RV over voltage protector. At $35 it is cheap insurance.

Thanks for the education on overvoltage - I did not know it was possible for them to generate more than a few volts more than their rated voltage.
 
breister said:
Thanks for the education on overvoltage - I did not know it was possible for them to generate more than a few volts more than their rated voltage.
Click to expand...

on a test stand you vary the resistance in the shunt field and they can go way up near 80 volts or more IIRC. its been a while.:eek:
 
Replace ext regulated alt with internal

Sam,
If i were to replace my 35A 14184 NipponDenso alternator with an internally regulated one, how much wiring change could there be? Just remove the regulator and run the Battery the same place and the field wire to my alt switch. What else would I need?

Alternator just went out today.
Jim RV-6
 
49clipper said:
If i were to replace my 35A 14184 NipponDenso alternator with an internally regulated one, how much wiring change could there be? Just remove the regulator and run the Battery the same place and the field wire to my alt switch.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much it. With an internally regulated alternator, the large "B" lead goes to the same terminal as before, and all you have to do is feed 12V to the field terminal from your alt switch and breaker, just take your old regulator out of the path.
 
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