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Looking for mountain advise: A trip to Asheville

L

lr172

Well Known Member
I live in the central flat lands of the Midwest and have no mountain flying experience. I am considering a trip to Asheville this weekend and will need to traverse the Blue Ridge mountains. I have read a bit about mountain flying risks, but most was related to the Rockies, at twice the height.

Any advice for how to approach and plan for the flight over the mountain? Should I maintain 2-3K of altitude over the mountain and then come back for the approach? Does the 25 knot wind over the mountain rule still apply?

I appreciate any advise or guidance you can give to this newbie for his first trip over anything taller than a TV transmitter antenna.

Larry
 
Larry

I live near asheville. Yes it is good to stay a couple thousand feet agl and be cautious on the downwind side of the ridge when the wind is perpendicular to the ridge. Asheville is in a bowl and can be gusty when it is windy.

The rv line has such good climb performance that it would take a very bad day to not be able to out climb a downdraft. Watch the weather; it is not uncommon to have overcast on one side of the Appalachians and clear on the other. Don't try to descend through a broken layer near a ridge in attempt to reach the valley below the layer. Don't fly at night in the mountains without being either familiar with the terrain or under IFR.

Not sure where you are coming from but I would consider flying up the Tennessee valley then turning south over the ridge rather than flying above the ridge the entire way.
 
FORANE said:
Larry

I live near asheville. Yes it is good to stay a couple thousand feet agl and be cautious on the downwind side of the ridge when the wind is perpendicular to the ridge. Asheville is in a bowl and can be gusty when it is windy.

The rv line has such good climb performance that it would take a very bad day to not be able to out climb a downdraft. Watch the weather; it is not uncommon to have overcast on one side of the Appalachians and clear on the other. Don't try to descend through a broken layer near a ridge in attempt to reach the valley below the layer. Don't fly at night in the mountains without being either familiar with the terrain or under IFR.

Not sure where you are coming from but I would consider flying up the Tennessee valley then turning south over the ridge rather than flying above the ridge the entire way.
Click to expand...

I am coming from Chicago and had planned to cross the ridge perpendicular near Ashville. Didn't think it was a good idea to hang around it longer than necessary. I plan to file IFR. Do the controllers routinely vector you in such a way as to help avoid the waves/rotors or do I need to make special requests?

Larry
 
No special request needed.
KAVL is a little more costly; you might consider other alternatives because of that however.
 
After a cold front passes through the area (like on Friday night/Saturday Morning), it's always turbulent over the mountains North of Asheville. I usually cross at 9,500'. Heading for Snowbird VOR [SOT] and then to AVL is a good choice, usually. My crystal ball says Saturday is going to be bumpy but Sunday should be good.
 
You might want to call Signature at KAVL first and get an idea of what they charge. It might be an eye opener.

Hendersonville, is just south of AVL and is a bit of a dump but you can take an Uber into Asheville.

I have never worried about flying over the mountains but as suggested, the higher you do it, the better. One option is to head towards ATL, run left after the mountains end, fly towards GMU, then take a left up over the mountains. That won't add a lot of time to your trip and reduces your time over the mountains.

For the record, I have flown VFR over them at night without concern. Just make sure the weather is good and there isn't much wind.

Feel free to drop in here at SC86, if you like.
 
Larry you will enjoy the trip. Asheville is a pretty place as are all surrounding areas. Being a flatlander myself I like Smoky Mountains. They are actually not that high. Check the weather and go. If you decide to go Hendersonville it's a kind of a desolate place. A bit delapidated pilot shack but people there are nice. Not far from there Jackson airport sits on a pretty hill. If winds are light and no turbulence just drop down the valley and enjoy the views. You will be able to hear Asheville approach at 1,500 agl from 30 miles if coming from the north.

Smoky%20Mountains%20-%201%202.jpg



Smoky%20Mountains%20-%201.jpg
 
lr172 said:
Any advice for how to approach and plan for the flight over the mountain? Should I maintain 2-3K of altitude over the mountain and then come back for the approach? Does the 25 knot wind over the mountain rule still apply?
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2-3K over the ridges? Yep. Especially for one as you describe yourself. Snopercod (a few hangers over from me) is right about 9000 ish when arriving from the west. You might be that high anyway if IFR due to local OROCA. Snowbird IFR routes are at 7K due to following the Pidgeon river pass through the ridge. I fly a bit closer to the ridgetops VFR but I also expect (and get) the rough ride when it is breezy. In regards to wind, the more wind, the more altitude needed to get to smooth air or the tighter you need your belts. Never had rotors/waves throw me towards the dirt, just bang me around. As mentioned in earlier post, it will probably be breezy on Sat after the front passage.

Don't worry about cross winds.KAVL runway is aligned to the long Asheville valley. Wind can be brisk but the air commonly goes straight down the valley and the runway.

I can't help with Signature costs because my hangar is full but feel free to PM me if you want to hook up Saturday night.

So I see Vlads pics. It really is a blast to fly nap of the earth around here. I like giving an eye level show to the folks eating dinner at the Pisgah Inn :) There are a couple of towers on the ridge south of the field (15 ish miles away from the airport but easily in the "playground") you gotta pay attention to.
 
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Thanks for all of the input and guidance here. We're going to head down that way on Friday afternoon. If the front hasn't passed and the Wx bad, we'll spend the night in eastern TN and come over early Sat morning.

Bill, Drop me your cell via PM. Assuming the trip doesn't get cancelled, I'll reach out on Sat and see if there is an opportunity to get together on Sat evening. I'll be traveling with my 18 year old son.

Based on the advise, I will plan to got to Hendersonville unless I need an instrument approach to get in.

Larry
 
Sent a PM Larry.

For folks reading this thread in the future, Hendersonville is OK but as Vlad said, can be empty of peeps. FBO may not be open outside of 8-5. Might call if arriving later.

The rwy 33 approach is interesting with tree covered hill at end of runway.
I would not do it after sundown.
 
One thing I have noticed when you see turbulance reports from pilots after a flight is that the turbulance was almost always forecast. Sometimes severe turbulance was forecast and pilots will still fly into it to see if it's as bad as they say! If they are calling for moderate or worse I would go another day.
G
 
We've got friends in Tryon and have used KSPA in the past. Does anyone know about 33A Fairview? Pretty rough looking runway and mostly construction equipment there. Says its open to the public but I wonder?
 
Knoxville==>Asheville video

Here's a video I took a couple weeks ago returning to Asheville from Knoxville at 9,500'. It will give you a pretty good idea of what the terrain looks like. https://www.dropbox.com/s/n9rk5dg7b9jut8v/Over the Appalacians.mp4?dl=0 I experienced continuous light turbulence that day with only one bout of moderate where stuff was flying around the cabin.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it but AVL has self-serve 100LL for $2 cheaper than the $6.98 full service. The self-serve counts toward the "facility fee". There are a bunch of RVs at AVL. Signature is expensive but the FBO is nice and conveniently located. As always, you get what you pay for.

Edit: If you have a slow Internet connection, the video will look pretty crappy. For full 1080p resolution, you can download it to your computer and play it that way. Just change the last digit in the url to a "1".
 
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I've flown over Asheville maybe a half-dozen times total, going and coming. A few more thoughts:
* Be prepared for clouds atop the mountains. If you've got excellent visibility and the winds are light, there may be a possibility of flying under the clouds.
* You might end up crossing ridges relatively low. Don't do that if there's any significant wind.
* Being able to climb up IFR through bouncy clouds is a great safety factor.
* Not much in the way of landing spots along the route
* There are two passes from the north that will get you started. However, there's often haze north of the mountains
* The rule of thumb for mountain flying is 1,000 feet for every 10 knots of wind. When the wind gets up to 30 knots, fuhgeddaboudit.
* Out west, mountains are often far apart, with flat lands around them. Going to Asheville from the north, that won't be the case. That means fewer outs.
* In an RV, density altitude should not be much of a factor. The terrain isn't that high and you'll have lots of performance.
* If you're going to rent a car in Asheville anyway, and the weather is uncooperative, land early and drive a few hours. I did that on another trip when there was a humongo thunderstorm over the destination, and the drive was actually a pleasant break after bouncing along for a full day.

Be careful, have fun!

Ed
 
I did that trip from Nashville to Asheville last fall.

The highest peak is about 6500 feet and mine line took me right over the top of it.

I passed over only about 1000 above it. The mountains were clear on the north side and broken on the south side (common scenario).

There as little or no wind and I experienced zero turbulence.

KAVL approach vectored me and, as I descended through the broken, I found myself choosing between cloud and mountain and being glad I had terrain avoidance on my glass.

I could easily have done it w/o glass, but it was a comfort to have it.

The main thing to be aware of is that its common to be cloudy on the upwind side and clear on the downwind. Then it might be turbulent and KAVL approach might ask you to turn headings you don't want to and you'll have to give them your intentions.
 
snopercod said:
Here's a video I took a couple weeks ago returning to Asheville from Knoxville at 9,500'. It will give you a pretty good idea of what the terrain looks like. https://www.dropbox.com/s/n9rk5dg7b9jut8v/Over the Appalacians.mp4?dl=0 I experienced continuous light turbulence that day with only one bout of moderate where stuff was flying around the cabin.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it but AVL has self-serve 100LL for $2 cheaper than the $6.98 full service. The self-serve counts toward the "facility fee". There are a bunch of RVs at AVL. Signature is expensive but the FBO is nice and conveniently located. As always, you get what you pay for.

Edit: If you have a slow Internet connection, the video will look pretty crappy. For full 1080p resolution, you can download it to your computer and play it that way. Just change the last digit in the url to a "1".
Click to expand...

I called this morning. The gas was only $4.95/gal SS and they waive the $35 fee with fuel. That only left a $5 fee and $12 per night. Seems reasonable and worth it for the convenience and larger runway, approaches, etc.

Larry
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
I've flown over Asheville maybe a half-dozen times total, going and coming. A few more thoughts:
* Be prepared for clouds atop the mountains. If you've got excellent visibility and the winds are light, there may be a possibility of flying under the clouds.
* You might end up crossing ridges relatively low. Don't do that if there's any significant wind.
* Being able to climb up IFR through bouncy clouds is a great safety factor.
* Not much in the way of landing spots along the route
* There are two passes from the north that will get you started. However, there's often haze north of the mountains
* The rule of thumb for mountain flying is 1,000 feet for every 10 knots of wind. When the wind gets up to 30 knots, fuhgeddaboudit.
* Out west, mountains are often far apart, with flat lands around them. Going to Asheville from the north, that won't be the case. That means fewer outs.
* In an RV, density altitude should not be much of a factor. The terrain isn't that high and you'll have lots of performance.
* If you're going to rent a car in Asheville anyway, and the weather is uncooperative, land early and drive a few hours. I did that on another trip when there was a humongo thunderstorm over the destination, and the drive was actually a pleasant break after bouncing along for a full day.

Be careful, have fun!

Ed
Click to expand...

Thanks for the ideas/guidance here. Very helpful. This seems like a key area where the Instrument ticket really helps.

Larry
 
Macon County (1A5) is west southwest of AVL and a little over an hour drive, if you can't make it all the way in. You can call Enterprise and have a car delivered to the airport.
 
snopercod said:
Here's a video I took a couple weeks ago returning to Asheville from Knoxville at 9,500'. It will give you a pretty good idea of what the terrain looks like. https://www.dropbox.com/s/n9rk5dg7b9jut8v/Over the Appalacians.mp4?dl=0 I experienced continuous light turbulence that day with only one bout of moderate where stuff was flying around the cabin.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it but AVL has self-serve 100LL for $2 cheaper than the $6.98 full service. The self-serve counts toward the "facility fee". There are a bunch of RVs at AVL. Signature is expensive but the FBO is nice and conveniently located. As always, you get what you pay for.

Edit: If you have a slow Internet connection, the video will look pretty crappy. For full 1080p resolution, you can download it to your computer and play it that way. Just change the last digit in the url to a "1".
Click to expand...

NICE VIDEO John!
 
I can't speak directly to Asheville, the furthest east I've been is TN is Chattanooga. However I have quite a bit of time flying a 172 180 HP STOL around 9K+ mountains. I could rehash some stuff but instead I would point you to the EAA Videos website, there's a webinar on mountain flying from a few years ago that's solid. There's also an AOPA Air Safety interactive course and a number of 20 page primers that will get you started. If I had to pick three rules of thumb it would be-
  • Get flight following
  • Always know where you would land
  • Cross peaks 2,000 ft or higher
 
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I flew into Hendersonville last year, the airport is a little run down, no facilities available unless the manager is there, and that is irregular. I was surprised to still get hit by a pretty good tie down fee, the fuel was also not cheap, and depends on bringing the old fuel truck to your plane. On the plus side, there is a VERY nice aviation museum right beside the airport, it is worth visiting.

On departure, I was planning on VFR to the NW, but during climb out, the clouds suddenly closed in enough, that I ended up circling over Ashville for 15 minutes waiting to get an IFR clearance.
 
French Broad River route across

rzbill said:
NICE VIDEO John!
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Thanks, Bill. I have fun making those. On the way N to Knoxville, I took Darwin Jones' advice and followed the French Broad river. I think the highest terrain on that route was 2,500' and there's a highway suitable for emergency landings.
 
snopercod said:
After a cold front passes through the area (like on Friday night/Saturday Morning), it's always turbulent over the mountains North of Asheville. I usually cross at 9,500'. Heading for Snowbird VOR [SOT] and then to AVL is a good choice, usually. My crystal ball says Saturday is going to be bumpy but Sunday should be good.
Click to expand...

We're heading to AVL this afternoon. Wx is clearing and it looks like the only issue is icing potential at 9000' in extreme NE Tenn; No ice forecasted at 7000'. Winds appear to be building and I hoped to cross at 9000 to avoid the chop. I am now thinking that I will go around the mountain to the south to stay further away from the ice and allow me to drop to a lower alt if I have a problem. Freezing level seems to be forecasted around 9000 to the south.
 
Sounds fine. Wind prediction says rwy 35 this afternoon anyway. I should be home from commute at around 5:30. Planning on yanking the cowl and draining the oil tonight. Hangar 108. Have Signature escort you over if the timing is right.
 
snopercod said:
The Turbulence Potential Chart actually looks pretty smooth. Have a good flight!
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Thats interesting. They issued an airmet Tango for the TN NC border and East (SFC-8000).

Turns out that the wx in Chicago is not clearing out as fast as projected and there is too much icing potential getting out, so we're going to depart early tomorrow AM instead. I'll look the chart you linked for that timeframe.

Larry
 
lr172 said:
They issued an airmet Tango for the TN NC border and East (SFC-8000).
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I see that. I would believe the Airmet. Current winds at AVL are 320@19G25 - perfect conditions for turbulence over the mountains. In fact, a little while ago a Diamond reported moderate turbulence near Asheville at 3,000'-4,000'. That was probably over the mountains just West of the airport where I hit this Moderate Turbulence that knocked my headset off (22 sec. video). I think ATC was trying to call me but I wasn't about to release my death grip on he stick to put the headset back in place. For some reason, Approoach loves to vector us little guys over those mountains "for spacing". Sheesh...
 
Larry, It was fun meeting you and your son. Good thing you chose the weekend you did for hiking Mt Mitchell. It snowed 13" there Thursday night. Also, I had what I think was the roughest ride ever commuting home yesterday. It was the first time I intentionally went for a very wide pass in the mountain ridge west of FQD and added 2k ft of altitude above normal. There were many lenticular clouds out.
 
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snopercod said:
I see Larry made it to AVL. Awaiting PIREP.
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It was a great trip. We planned to go Fri afternoon, but low clouds and a low freezing level left us concerned. We ended up leaving at 5:00 AM after the clouds lifted and we flew over a low overcast the whole way. No meaningfull turbulence going over the ridges, but can't remember when ATC dropped me from 11K to 8K.

The visit was great. Went on the Blue ridge Sat, but we were in the clouds above 4K, so did the mansion tour and experienced some Carolina BBQ. Spent all day Sunday up in the mountains with sightseeing and hiked some trails. A little more BBQ on the way to the airport and departed early evening on Sun. I forgot how much climb I lose in the warm wx at gross. I got spoiled with the climb I get at 20* I guess I found one benefit to cold wx.

We got a chance to hang with Bill on Sat night and experience the Asheville night life and see the moving beer cart :D

My middle son liked the stories and pictures so much he wants me to take him there for his trip next weekend. The kids like hiking.

Larry
 
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