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Ramp courtesy....is it ok to punch out another pilot?

RickWoodall

Well Known Member
Wife and I flew into 48D today. Great little airport, courtesy car, good fuel prices etc. After fill up we taxied to the tie down area at the terminal and prepared for our trip into town for breakfast, once our buddies landed.
A cessna lands, and taxis up to the tie down between me and another plane, with lots of rpm wing actually 5 feet or so over my wing opposite direction and turn a 180 under power. Wife grabbed controls and plane was fine but I didnt even know what to say. Further, since I had grabbed the crew car keys, he asked us to take him into town for breakfast too and actually sat with us.

I was nice...but its been burning my butt all day. There was an entire row of parking, and this tool fits into one between two parked planes and pulls donuts under power, while his wing is over another plane, he looked back to see if his tail would hit our plane...no kidding.

GRRRRRRRR. Is it wrong to just punch another pilot....small town airport...didnt want to be a jerk and this guy was 60 or so with his son in law...but really..he did spend all of breakfast telling us how great he was too. haha. Ok feel better.

Would you have just let it slide....or put a whooopin on him. In all my years of flying nothing has made me so mad. No idea what the guy was thinking...and mad I didnt just walk over and drop some nasty words. I spend an hour with him after this not saying a thing...Geeez.
 
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Gentlemen

Rick,

You were a true gentleman. It would have been real hard to Not leave that son of a gun standing on the ramp as I was driving off without him.
 
Many years ago I had a near miss with a jerk in a Cessna 210. I was flying a proper pattern to an uncontrolled airport and he opted for the straight in, with out listening to the frequency. Anyway, I saw him, missed him and had a few well chosen words with him on the ground. It was hopeless, he was the classic entitled, rude, more money than sense type. About two weeks later he landed his shiny new 210 gear up. Lots of damage, no injuries. I laughed at him. Karma is a bit*h.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Parking

LOL
I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing because you can't fix stupid.
I guess it's similar to owning a nice car. No matter where you park it, even in BFE, some putz will park right next to it and do a stupid.
I agree, you were a gentleman.:D
 
Honestly I probably would have started (as soon as he shut down) with "Wow, you just about blew my ailerons off!! Did you realize what your propwash can do?" Depending on how he reacts (arrogant, concerned, apologetic...) I'd have taken the appropriate course.

I mean, I know you're just getting it off your chest, but folks don't have to take the nuclear option right off the bat! I have screwed up without realizing it before, and appreciate a little tolerance now and again. Given the chance to apologize for something I did wrong, I'll go overboard in being profuse.

Yes, there are LOTS of rude pilots out there - some intentional, and some just haven't been taught ramp manners. Like....if you pull up to a self-serve pump with your wing pointing at the pump instead of your nose, you can quickly and easily pull the airplane out of the way when you're done, rather than needing a huge area cleared to back it out of the spot. It makes it so much easier on anyone who comes in after you to "line up" for the pump.

Too few pilots among us to alienate others - we need to stick together against those who'd see us not flying!

(And yes, if after you've tried to be calm, they prove to be an absolute jerk, bring out the nukes....)

Paul
 
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My mistake

Last year I was on a cross-country, far from home, and discovered a flat tire after I shut down. I had to use considerable power to taxi from a row of parked planes to a repair area.

A few minutes later a pilot came over and vented his anger about my high power taxi. He kept venting and I kept saying "I'm sorry". Never cursed or insulted me, just vented. In the end I hope he felt better, and I was truly sorry, and learned to try never to do that again.

You are a gentleman, but a raised voice without cursing might be appropriate to relieve your pressure and for him to learn something.

Carl
 
Last weekend at the Homecoming, I sat and watched three planes in a row come in and swing around under power ------one of them behind my plane.

Pretty rude IMHO, but I was glad I had the gust lock in place.

They could have just pulled in front of the parking place, and cut the engine, and pushed the plane 25' or so and been parked.

Idiots are ubiquitous :(
 
High Road

I'm with Paul on this one. Diplomatic approach followed by evaluation then appropriate action.

Several years ago at the Copperstate fly in, a guy came in with an unpainted tandem turbine. I thought it was a Lancair. Anyway, he did a high speed pass, sharp pull up and entered the pattern. He was directed to an area where a bunch of RV's were parked included many from the SoCal group.

Well, the guys high speed pass wasn't enough. He further had to impress everyone by doing a 180 to line up with this parking spot then putting the prop into reverse to back into the space. He blew dirt and debris all over many aircraft. When he shut down and opened his canopy, he was surrounded.

One of our own, normally reserved members, was all over this guy. I don't know what was said but I think he was invited to leave, in which he did. That was a close to a butt kicking as I've ever seen.

Remember this PR?

I firmly believe many of these offenders are just clueless. Some one who does it intentionally is probably flying a rental:D
 
I think Paul has the right approach too. My attempt would be to let him know in a professional and diplomatic way that his operation or lack there of has follow on effects on those around him - as Paul suggested, a good ice breaker is to use some humor and a helping hand approach to bridge the situation awareness gap. If he is not interested then you can give him a simple, blunt heads up that what he did certainly looked a lot differently to those outside and behind his airplane than they may have appeared to him. If it escalates beyond that you can kindly walk away (don't engage further), say nothing else and be glad you don't have to deal with the guy anymore.

If he's that untrained or unaware, than saying nothing won't help him get a clue and it won't help the next guy. Best case scenario you might have a chance to help someone learn the ropes of operating GA aircraft but who knows. I bet if you mentioned something you would not be mad right now. but I don't blame you, I'd be annoyed too!
 
Few years ago I fired up, and taxied a bit...blowing dust over a professional plane washer and his now not-clean aircraft.

I had seen him, the consequences of my actions didn't connect. He was nice, but called me out on it. I saw my error and apologized, and years later still am more careful. I remain thankful he called me out. I'm a bit of a better pilot and person for it.

The trick is to do what needs to be said without being angry or emotionally judgmental. Not easy to do.
 
This nice forum lets us prepare for even this kind of action

Unprepared for this kind of situation I took the more reactive response and I have never forgotten that my stupidity was far greater than the power pivoting pilot that prop wash blasted my plane and passengers. The risk in triggering a reaction that can be life altering is great. I've never forgotten the event and Mexican police coming out across the ramp as I powered up and departed for the US. Never act like a schoolboy in such situations think ahead and just come to VansAirforce and relate the experience and how maturely you handled it.

Bob Axsom
 
Honestly I probably would have started (as soon as he shut down) with "Wow, you just about blew my ailerons off!! Did you realize what your propwash can do?" Depending on how he reacts (arrogant, concerned, apologetic...) I'd have taken the appropriate course.

I mean, I know you're just getting it off your chest, but folks don't have to take the nuclear option right off the bat! [snip...}
Paul

Right on the money IMHO!

I was lucky enough to get checked out in a T-34B with barely 100 hours of PIC time. My club had a civilianized Navy Mentor that they were really looking for people to fly so that it would pay its way (this was 25 years ago).

Being young and dumb, I did a snappy turn on parking at the pump at a small airfield one day. Unfortunately, there was a beaver with its cowl off nearby, and my prop wash came close to blowing some of the cowling across the ramp. It didn't actually do any damage. But, the guy with his head buried behing that big round motor came unglued and berated me unmercifully. There was no apologizing. He would not let me speak. He just kept yelling at me until I finally just gave up and walked away.

I was so bothered by it, I went back to the club and talked with one of the CFIs about it at length. I learned something that day. It wasn't an easy lesson.
 
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Don't hit!

Nowadays, with everyone having a camera and a lawyer in his/her back pocket, it just doesn't pay to hit anyone. Best to pre plan what you might do in circumstances like that one - and the result of being arrested. Doesn't matter why or who threw the first punch, the officer is may arrest both of you. Not worth it. Gotta agree with Paul though that an attempt at educating the errant pilot might be beneficial.
 
The trick is to do what needs to be said without being angry or emotionally judgmental. Not easy to do.

Boy, THAT'S for sure! My brain knows that's the right thing to do, but my anger at the inconsideration and/or stupidity of "some people" just lights my fuse. I can't imagine how I would have reacted in Rick's situation ... but there's no question he handled better than I. :eek: Way to go, Rickster!
 
Optn 1: Drop him off in town, finish your lunch early, let his tyres down on your return, fly home.

Option 2: During the drive in, raise the possibility of propwash-induced damage. Bodgy up a story if you must..."I did that high-power 180* once, and bent the cowl of a Bonanza that was being pre-flighted behind me that I didnt see - now, I shut down and tow it that final 50'..."

I've done some very stupid things before - not all intentionally - and have been greatful for those who have called me on it. Usually it's been polite, and I've learnt from it. If that doesn't work, see Option 1.
 
While it's true that "I don't want to be sued" or "I don't want to be shot" are valid reasons to be civil with people and not blow things completely out of proportion, I very much prefer "because I don't want to be a jerk" or even "because I want to set a good example". Either way works, but one way encourages me to be nice to people from whom I have nothing to fear.
 
Thread theft

This post is very timely. I was with a group of Rvers this weekend. After our flight we were allowed to park our planes in one of the hangars for the night. In the morning, our planes had been pulled out to allow access to a Cirrus. Now the chocked Cirrus was blocking access to the taxiway. The owner appeared in fifteen minutes, got on his cell phone and started chewing on the line guy for not having his airplane fueled and starts the ritual of adding two quarts of oil, cleaning the windscrean, loading his luggage and texting. In the meantime, we are cleaning and leaning on leading edges waiting on this guy (who could have pulled his plane forward if he were a little observant). After refueling, he starts his walk around and gets on the cell phone this time to call his passenger. Finally one of us asks him if he could pull forward so we could get out. ?Well, I guess I can if you are in a hurry.? So, I?m already irritated. We get our planes up on the ramp and while refueling, we discover one of our ailerons damaged probably when the planes were moved. The line guy never said a word but when approached, ?I don?t think so, but, it might have happened.? I was livid ? and it wasn?t my plane. The FBO owner is a very good friend and the airplane owner is just way too nice of a guy who will probable settle for less than parts. Me? I would have sent a bill for the aileron parts, a bill for the painting, and the national debt for labor. But, that?s me and explains why I don?t play golf and am irritating to be around.
 
Calm is good...

Calm is good, Karma takes care of just about anything. The only time you are allowed force is if you or your life, limb or property is in significant danger. I worked for a long time at a major flight training company and the Center Manager said something very wise---- paraphrasing... Feel free to write a letter and say what you need to say, just wait 24 hours and think about it again before you send it. Ed is a smart man and his advice has come in handy many times.
Best,
Brian
 
I'd yank a very nasty knot in his tie down ropes, if you're leaving first...

Seriously, I'd go with Brian's calm, wait, think, and karma. Usually never fails.

But you need to understand something basic about human pilots. There are three basic types. First, the fairly smart one who occasionally fouls up. Second, the new one who doesn't know better and might benefit from pointing out the stupidity move. Third, and who makes up a substantial number of GA pilots, is the arrogant a** who is smarter, more wealthy, and generally believes his life is more important. You'll never change this one without committing a capital crime. Refer to calm and karma above.
 
...Me? I would have sent a bill for the aileron parts, a bill for the painting, and the national debt for labor. But, that?s me and explains why I don?t play golf and am irritating to be around.

Hahaha! I think you and I would get along great. :D

 
calm is good, and good for you

In addition to "... Feel free to write a letter ... just wait 24 hours and think about it again before you send it." I'd suggest the same apply to electronic communications.

I learned the hard way (too often the only way I learn) that posting a reply, or sending an email in the heat of the moment works against me. These days, I compose that correspondence without an addressee, to keep from firing off the "reply-all" message that confirms how silly I am.

To Mr. Woodall - good on you for maintaining your composure, especially during the drive and meal with the knucklehead!
 
This thread is a good one, some funny stuff in here between the annoying stuff too. I'm an avid boater and it very much reminds me of a much more civilized set of "boat ramp" stories. If you want to see some serious misplaced rage and frustration go to your local boat ramp, bring your breakfast and a cup of coffee and in 2 hours you'll never get angry on a GA ramp again. This is location dependent of course, some boaters are more inclined to fits of rage than others. You may be concerned and confused back on the gentlemanly GA ramp at times - but not angry, because you will not be shocked or surprised by anything as you will have seen everything already on that boat ramp.
 
I'm an avid boater and it very much reminds me of a much more civilized set of "boat ramp" stories.
I was also thinking of boat ramp antics. Weekends can be very entertaining, if you are just there to watch! I've also probably witnessed more marriages fracture at a boat ramp than anywhere else.

I was also wondering how much gravel a courtesy car can throw...
 
In my college town, there's a "fighting words" ordinance. If someone is sufficiently verbally abusive, and is thereupon assaulted by the abusee, the abuser is arrested. Perhaps the assaulter is too - probably. The local paper reported that other cities have similar ordinances and that they have been upheld in court actions.

Given that, there's an additional motivation to be a little bit careful.

I have found that a very loud voice, not necessarily an angry one, can both intimidate and embarrass the recipient. It takes significant volume. Don't know how that would play out in this case, though.

Dave
 
Work Detail

Just a few weeks ago I was literally finishing up dust mopping the 7-plane hangar where I keep my Mooney (it's a really big job) when Bonanza hangar-mate lands and pulls up to the open door. I motioned for him to taxi nose-in per new direction/permission from the owner. Instead, he turns 90 degrees away and blows an abundance of dirt and grass into the hangar and onto the airplanes, some of which are open cockpit biplanes! I was speechless! After helping him stow his plane I simply said I'd just finished mopping, now it was his turn. I handed him the mop and left. Only then did the look on his face make it appear it sank in what he'd done. He was contrite and the place was clean when I returned later.
 
Years ago, I flew freight for a fellow in Texas. We both landed at Abilene one morning and a Beech Duke had the nerve to park in my bosses parking spot. Well, the boss gets out of the old Queen Air and proceeds to let the Duke driver know that he needs to move his "#^+?" plane. The other pilot tried to ignore him until my boss grabbed him by the shoulder and spun him around, at which time the Duke driver hit him with a straight right and left him lying on the ramp taking a nice little nap. The line boys were rolling on the ground. I may have snickered a bit too as I was trying to get him up off the ramp!
 
Do unto others, as ...

I'm ashamed to say that I have been guilty of taxiing over to a group of guys admiring some RV's at our home airport and without forethought or consideration, I have turned my propblast toward the group. No one said anything to me, but when I saw the look on some of their faces, I realized what I had done. This was several years ago, but it was at a time in my flying experience that I should have known better. In retrospect, I wish someone would have called me off to the side and talked to me one-on-one about what I had done.

Fast forward to 2012, and I'm on the receiving end of a prop blast. My next-door hangar neighbor pulled his RV-8 out of his hangar while I am in my hangar with the big door open, doing some housekeeping and general goofing off. We exchanged pleasantries as we usually do. But then he cranked up his RV-8 and let it sit at idle for at least 5 minutes. The prop blast, pointed directly at me, wasn't nearly as bad as the unburned hydrocarbons I could smell. It was so bad I had to walk out on the ramp to get some fresh air. He never noticed me because, I found out later, he was making some changes and checking his EFIS display. And our ramp is so big, he could have easily taxied 50 or 60 feet downwind from me and done what he needed to do.

About 30 minutes later, after he'd landed from a short flight and shut down, I went over and asked him about his flight. I then very politely informed him that I liked his RV but not so much that I wanted the exhaust fumes in my hangar! He apologized and said he just wasn't thinking.

And we're still friends. :)

We all make mistakes. And we all need a little slack sometimes. But we all can do a little better, can't we?

Peace. :cool:
 
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some times its not what a person does or says that makes you wanna smack em upside the noggin!
 
FBO fine

My FBO charges a fine for each instance of prop-blast into another plane or hangar. it helps me remember to be a good ramp neighbor.
 
I try to remember that "in the end it is the guy with the most cool that wins"

I try . . .
 
airport courtesy

I was airboss at an airshow this weekend and after the show ended a young flight instructor flying a static display airplane from Southern Illinois University pushed it outside the crowd area. He cranked up and proceeded to make a 90 degree left turn out, prop blasting me and the sound guys equipment, blowing over tripods and speakers and all of my stuff all over the place. I still had control of the field and I did tell him about it on the radio. blasting an open hangar is taboo too.

When I learned to fly almost 40 years ago, the instructors taught airport etiquette, I did too when I was teaching, but I don't think anybody does anymore. I think its usually a matter of ignorance rather than arrogance.

Chris M
 
Very diplomatic

I was airboss at an airshow this weekend and after the show ended a young flight instructor flying a static display airplane from Southern Illinois University pushed it outside the crowd area. He cranked up and proceeded to make a 90 degree left turn out, prop blasting me and the sound guys equipment, blowing over tripods and speakers and all of my stuff all over the place. I still had control of the field and I did tell him about it on the radio. blasting an open hangar is taboo too.

When I learned to fly almost 40 years ago, the instructors taught airport etiquette, I did too when I was teaching, but I don't think anybody does anymore. I think its usually a matter of ignorance rather than arrogance.

Chris M
I was taxiing out to runway 11 when I heard this exchange take place. Mr Murphy was very diplomatic (much more than I would have been) btw, great job as the air boss!
 
thanks

I was taxiing out to runway 11 when I heard this exchange take place. Mr Murphy was very diplomatic (much more than I would have been) btw, great job as the air boss!

I was filling in there and was having frustrating radio problems all afternoon. I enjoyed the show and Andrew Fearn and his crew do a great job there. I demoed my rv-4 there a few years ago. I saw several RVs land and I wish I had time to go look at them.

Chris M
 
I don't know if anyone has ever told you.....

It would be hard to have this amount of poise and calm given we are talking about an RV, but I remember being 15 and playing golf. Walked right over the guy's line leaving a foot-print in the way of his birdie attempt.

He calmly told me,"I don't know if anyone has ever told you or not, but you shouldn't walk between a ball and the hole on a green.

There are certain phrase-starters like this that accomplish everything we need to accomplish.

No, I would have a hard time going to lunch not saying anything.
 
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