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OSH Arrival Speeds

I have a couple questions related to the approach procedure but not to the OP.


2. The NOTAM says to turn off your transponder when approaching RIPON. I understand why this is but in the day of ADS-B traffic it seems that doing so neglects a potentially significant situational awareness tool for MY airplane. I've known guys who ignored this requirement in order to keep their ADS-B traffic working. Especially on a VFR day I'm not sure I understand why keeping our transponders on will mess up the IFR traffic arriving and descending from much higher. By the time they are close to the airport they will be at our altitude and on tower/app frequency anyway.

Your input would be appreciated. I'll fly it as it reads and that apparently has worked, but let me know if I'm missing something.

The issue is the automation on the ATC side of things. There are collision alerts on their side too. Imagine the alarms being raised due to the abnormal separation. Hopefully, they have developed to disable them for the area during the show.
 
Got it.

No "deaths" is comforting, but I suspect there has been some swapped paint.

Still pretty spooky considering how many people are NOT on the same page.

Yes, there are many incidents documented on and around the runway. That's where things happen.
 
I have a couple questions related to the approach procedure but not to the OP.

1. The NOTAM talks about breaking off if you get stacked up and need to S turn to maintain separation. The NOTAM is silent as to how you break off and return to RIPON but the website says turn "left/right". This seems a little vague. In particular, if you break off between RIPON and FISK and turn left, you could potentially conflict with traffic at your same altitude flying opposite direction in the Rush Lake holding pattern. I've flown in once in my RV and had no trouble but it was early on Sunday morning so not at all busy. It just seems that they could be more specific about where/how to break off and return to RIPON. Maybe offset tracks 1 mile to east or something like that.

The holding area is OVER the lake, isn't it? The route between Ripon and Fisk is Southeast (mostly) of the Lake. If there are planes holding there, they wouldn't be flying opposite you except on the other side of the lake. Basically, you'd be entering a 45 downwind with traffic going in the same direction. If, as I said, there was anybody over there. That's the way I saw it anyway, although at the time I broke off, there was nobody over the lake.

I believe the person in front of me, who was an RV buddy were were flying with, also broke off after I did. I don't know if he saw me and followed me back around or not.
 
Collision

There was a Mustang collision on or near the end of the runway a few years ago. Fatal to one pilot.
 
The Mustang accident was part of the airshow, not the arrival, so I don't see it as relevant to this discussion.
 
I have a couple questions related to the approach procedure but not to the OP.

2. The NOTAM says to turn off your transponder when approaching RIPON. I understand why this is but in the day of ADS-B traffic it seems that doing so neglects a potentially significant situational awareness tool for MY airplane. I've known guys who ignored this requirement in order to keep their ADS-B traffic working. Especially on a VFR day I'm not sure I understand why keeping our transponders on will mess up the IFR traffic arriving and descending from much higher. By the time they are close to the airport they will be at our altitude and on tower/app frequency anyway.

Your input would be appreciated. I'll fly it as it reads and that apparently has worked, but let me know if I'm missing something.


I sure do not want someone looking inside their airplane for ADS-B traffic while flying into AirVenture Oshkosh. The last few minutes of ones flight into AirVenture, the NOTAM wants us to look outside for other aircraft, follow the aircraft in front of you, or to follow the procedure leading the guys behind you. A slight distraction inside the cockpit could be the start of a very bad thing.
 
I sure do not want someone looking inside their airplane for ADS-B traffic while flying into AirVenture Oshkosh. The last few minutes of ones flight into AirVenture, the NOTAM wants us to look outside for other aircraft, follow the aircraft in front of you, or to follow the procedure leading the guys behind you.

The one thing I missed out on by flying into OSH last year, was the opportunity to see what Oshkosh looked like from the air. I never saw it. I was way too focused on the plane in front of me and all of those around me. There just wasn't time for me to take a look around.

My new goal is to ride as a passenger in a plane flying to Oshkosh; that must be a blast.
 
The Ultralights have their own procedures.

All the RVs that have a pilot worthy of his pilot certificate can safely fly from Ripon to OSH at 70 KIAS. 90 KIAS as recommended in the NOTAM has been the SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) at AirVenture Oshkosh for more than 15-years. The only stall or spins I know about have been fast glass when they get to the runway.
...

See post #15 on this thread.

Still, I would not hesitate to fly in again.
 
The holding area is OVER the lake, isn't it? The route between Ripon and Fisk is Southeast (mostly) of the Lake. If there are planes holding there, they wouldn't be flying opposite you except on the other side of the lake. Basically, you'd be entering a 45 downwind with traffic going in the same direction. If, as I said, there was anybody over there. That's the way I saw it anyway, although at the time I broke off, there was nobody over the lake.

I believe the person in front of me, who was an RV buddy were were flying with, also broke off after I did. I don't know if he saw me and followed me back around or not.

Bob - I'm looking at the map on page 5 of the NOTAM. It shows a counterclockwise holding pattern at Rush Lake, the last leg of which rejoins the tracks. So any traffic breaking off left between there and Fisk would be in an automatic conflict with holding traffic. Unless I'm missing something.
 
C'mon, that's not what I was implying at all. ADS-B traffic is a valuable tool that can be used in addition to our eyes. A quick glance at the screen can tell you WHERE to look that might save your life - it has happened to me. Or a copilot/passenger can monitor ADS-B while the pilot looks outside continuously. What about traffic above you or behind you and gaining? You can look outside all you want and there is some traffic you won't see.

Depends. I've seen it where you'd be much better served visually scanning the 500-800 yds around your plane. And then there are the non-transponder equipped mixing it up with you.
 
A) I don't understand why looking for ADS-B traffic that *isn't supposed to be displayed because they're supposed to have their transponder on STANDBY* is useful, and
B) Aren't pilots supposed to abide by NOTAMs? Seems that "guys who ignore this requirement" are in violation of the rules, and at risk of getting a visit from the FAA (who, obviously, can *see* that you didn't follow the rules because YOUR TRANSPONDER IS ON duh!).
 
Bob - I'm looking at the map on page 5 of the NOTAM. It shows a counterclockwise holding pattern at Rush Lake, the last leg of which rejoins the tracks. So any traffic breaking off left between there and Fisk would be in an automatic conflict with holding traffic. Unless I'm missing something.

I'm not making a left 180, I'm merely, breaking off left and fly into the pattern over the lake, going around the other side, and then rejoining the line at the. most southeasterly part of either Green or Rush Lake.

As near as I can tell, the only time a left turn should put you in the path of oncoming traffic, is if people who are heading for Fisk aren't directly over the train tracks as required.

As I see it, you're not doing a full left turn and turnback, you're merely sidestepping left to get out of the line, flying a holding pattern over the lake and even rejoining.

As I recall last year, I didn't even THINK about getting in the line down at Ripon if there were planes holding over Green Lake. They weren't. But they were coming from everywhere, up, down, faster, slower. I felt like I was in the middle of the Battle of Britain. This was after the airshow ended and the airport had just reopened (around 7), and the ground movement was to stop at 8.

No one in our group received any ATIS information . I don't know if we were too low or what, but everyone was confused about whether the airport had reopened yet.

I asked EAA about this at the webinar a few weeks ago and they insisted they actually move transmitter equipment from the airport closer to Ripon/Fisk and asserted they had had no complaints about people not being able to receive it last year. Which reminds me, if I go this year, I need to get into that A210 and change the squelch threshhold.
 
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My new goal is to ride as a passenger in a plane flying to Oshkosh; that must be a blast.

That sounds like a neat idea but I find that I still have my head on a swivel looking for traffic! I feel confident that an alert passenger (who doesn't have to divide attention with things like flying and maintaining air speed) is the very best piece of safety equipment in the cockpit on an Oshkosh approach. I couldn't NOT be diligently looking for traffic. Maybe if I was in the backseat of a -10 with a couple pilots that I really respected up front?
 
That sounds like a neat idea but I find that I still have my head on a swivel looking for traffic! I feel confident that an alert passenger (who doesn't have to divide attention with things like flying and maintaining air speed) is the very best piece of safety equipment in the cockpit on an Oshkosh approach. I couldn't NOT be diligently looking for traffic. Maybe if I was in the backseat of a -10 with a couple pilots that I really respected up front?

I couldn't agree more.

Even better is a passenger who knows how to change frequencies for you while you are watching for traffic and following the guy in front of you.

(I have to admit, I pre-program the frequencies into my radio so changing them isn't that big of a deal.)
 
I know this thread is a yawn for some of the seasoned old timers and I don't take part in it unless I fly to OSH, like this year.
I find the opinions and discussion very informative, no to substitute for
reading the NOTAM but definitely filling in a few blank spots for me.
Thanks.
 
Yep, Louise nailed it. It sounds good, but just doesn't work out like imagined. It seems that this is MY year to fly the arrival... as long as I hit the dot softly. Otherwise, Tanya was flying! "Women in aviation", with pink smoke, who gets to fly that show?...

Actually, it sounds like we may be part of an "arrival" that has it's own complexities (that are sometimes easier). KOSH is a thing in flux all the way to the parking spot. It just is. It reminds us to be flexible and capable every step along the way.
 
That sounds like a neat idea but I find that I still have my head on a swivel looking for traffic! I feel confident that an alert passenger (who doesn't have to divide attention with things like flying and maintaining air speed) is the very best piece of safety equipment in the cockpit on an Oshkosh approach. I couldn't NOT be diligently looking for traffic. Maybe if I was in the backseat of a -10 with a couple pilots that I really respected up front?

Last year was my first time flying in, and having another pilot acting as cockpit crew was invaluable to me. Made the whole experience a lot more manageable, - along with a whole lot of prep before the fact.
 
Like a good citizen, I followed the rules flying the low route from Ripon to OSH
On Wednesday evening around 7pm.
After circling green lake 3 times and listening to Fisk approach I could tell this was going to be an adventure. While OSH was still closed for arriving aircraft
The controller had a heck of a time keeping aircraft from "gaggling" up at Fisk
Reminding them constantly to form up single file over the railroad tracks.
When that gaggle finally got released for landing it was our turn to enter Ripon.
At this point 4 or 5 of us had figured out how to fly at 90 kts, single file with 1/2 mile spacing. As we entered Ripon more aircraft joined from the left and right
Making a mess of our single file line over the railroad tracks.
The result was everyone slowed down to avoid the guys cutting in front of you to where most of the way to Fisk I had the stall warning horn on at 70 or less kts
With a fully fueled and loaded RV-10. Finally at Fisk I was cleared for 36L acknowledging instructions with a very mushy wing rock. On base cleared to land #3 on yellow dot and seconds later just before the turn to final still at 70 kts with the horn on, cut off on the left by a Bonanza. "I know he can't fly at 70kts" The controller was quick to clear him for the yellow dot and me for the purple. All 4 of the planes landed about the same time but slowing down at 70kts to avoid the slow traffic in front of you is testing even my limits.
Anyway, I will take the high road next time!
 
Anyway, I will take the high road next time!

Won't fix anything Ernst - the high and low roads get mixed at Fiske - everyone ends up at the same altitude inside the Class D.

There are a LOT of people out there not following the NOTAM - cutting people off, entering between RIPON and FISKE, not playing by the rules. Deciding that "since they aren't following the rules, I won't either" doesn't solve it for anyone.

We try to pick the least busy times to arrive, and if we can't do that, we arrive with enough fuel to break off and come back for another slot. If that doesn't work, we go sit it out at Waucoma for awhile.

Is that fair, giving up your "slot" to folks who don't follow the rules? Doesn't seem like it - but I'd rather be alive than push the issue - or be a cause for further confusion for others.

Just the way I look at it.
 
Stall Warning?

...The result was everyone slowed down to avoid the guys cutting in front of you to where most of the way to Fisk I had the stall warning horn on at 70 or less...
...On base cleared to land #3 on yellow dot and seconds later just before the turn to final still at 70 kts with the horn on, cut off on the left by a Bonanza. "I know he can't fly at 70kts" The controller was quick to clear him for the yellow dot and me for the purple. All 4 of the planes landed about the same time but slowing down at 70kts to avoid the slow traffic in front of you is testing even my limits.

I'm curious why your stall warning is "blaring" at 70kts, a full 15kts above the published RV-10 gross weight stall speed. Did you have your flaps down for the low speed?

Bonanzas fly just fine at 70kts (maybe better than the -10)!

Skylor
RV-8
 
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Gary,
WOW.
Your response to a simple question came off really harsh.
I had the same question.
Yes, I can fly at 90, and 80, and 70, and 65, and hold off at 60.
But that wasn't the point.
Your reference to the stickers? What's up with that?
So, only "OSH "Vets are allowed in now?
Daddyman
 
I was listening on LiveATC for several hours on the first saturday. There were a few IFR inbounds that got dropped in the middle of the mix. I don't know how many there were, but I has happened to me on occasion in the past (not OSH) and I suddenly got a very large view of a yellow J3 up very close.

Could they be IFR conversions to VFR that drop into the mix? I admit that I did not read the NOTAM on this (as I did not fly in). I used the RT26 Arrival.

I did hear a lot of guys that clearly did not read/heed the NOTAM.
 
Is that fair, giving up your "slot" to folks who don't follow the rules? Doesn't seem like it - but I'd rather be alive than push the issue - or be a cause for further confusion for others.
Thanks Paul, you always find the right words to put things into perspective.


I'm curious why your stall warning is "blaring" at 70kts, a full 15kts above the published RV-10 gross weight stall speed. Did you have your flaps down for the low speed?

I know better than to question Vans numbers but I believe "63mph" is CAS
not IAS and my 10 stalls fully loaded around 65kts IAS as do most others.
Setting the stall warning at 5kts above stall is a an industry standard.

Bonanzas fly just fine at 70kts (maybe better than the -10)!
I wasn't referring to the Bonanza but rather "he" the pilot.:rolleyes:

To sum it up, I was not concerned about flying my RV-10 at 70kts but more than a little annoyed at the large majority of pilots finding a way to outmaneuver those who follow the rules.
 
Speed

Uff. It's amazing we make it every year. I think we're lucky with our airplanes that are overpowered compared to the factory stuff that we can power up and get out of line and renter when we want at Ripon. It's not busy all the time. Go to Wacoma and have a beer and relax if it's busy. Then try later:D
 
Do not bother with rude people my friend, they are everwhere, they need to be better than others for some reason, it is better to clarify a question before you go like you did, congratulations for your attitude!
 
In the 25 Oshkosh conventions that I have attended, I've flown into about 1/3 of them, and nearly every arrival has been "interesting."

I've been behind the low-n-slow kinds and instructed by ATC to go around them. I've been cut off and had to react quickly to avoid unfortunate issues. I've been upside-down. I've been passed. Even this year, both my arrival and my departure were not without issue.

I arrived over Ripon at exactly 1800' and 90 knots, trimmed and quite comfy. As I made the turn over the water tower to follow the tracks, I saw a shadow above me. A Bonanza was zooming overhead and to my right. I assumed that he was on the higher arrival and would drop in far ahead of me, but noooooo ... he chopped power, dropped his gear and slid in right in front of me! I'm not sure he even knew I was there. The only bright spot was that he made an admirable circle-to-land approach that was in tight, not the typical airliner/Bonanza approach.

Thursday morning, I was killing time for my tent to dry. With only an hour's flight to get home, I was in no hurry. The early departures were lining up quickly, and I didn't need to clog up the system.

Then the Breezy crashed on 36R. That closed the airport for over an hour, and that meant that the taxiways were lined with anxious pilots.

When they opened the airport again and the taxiing aircraft began to move, I packed up my gear and bid friends adieu. I joined the conga line for 36L and taxied for an hour before it was my turn to blast off. The controllers needed to work in the planes that had been holding while the airport was closed.

[Side note: The FAA controllers I worked with this year did not seem to be up to the standard that I'm used to. Aircraft ID was poor and safe aircraft flow was marginal, IMO.]

After 3 Sonexes departed in front of me, I was at the hold line waiting for instructions. The radio was silent. Apparently, the radio of the controller at the hold line had chosen that moment to go belly-up. I could read her lips saying to the other controller, "I can't hear you!" I looked to my right and saw a C-17 on a two-mile final.

I looked pleadingly at the controller on the hold line, making gestures that I can get out before he arrives, but she just looks at me and shrugs. So, I sat there and watched the behemoth make a low pass. I hear some wag say over the radio, "Don, that C-17's gonna squish you like a bug!"

The monster passed overhead and the controller said, "Gray RV with the pirate tail, cleared to take off 36L, left side!" I shoved in the power and mentally tried to imagine what paths the huge cargo plane's wingtip vortices will take and how I can avoid them as I turned to line up with the runway. I decided that fast and straight up is probably the best course of action.

I quickly climbed above the C-17's path and, as he turned downwind, passed over him and out of potential harm's way. As I was climbing out, I heard the somewhat panicked controller say, "Don't let anyone else take off until the wake turbulence is gone. We nearly lost that one!" Sheesh.

The moral of the story is: Be prepared for the unexpected. This ain't your mama's airport. If everybody plays by the rules (the NOTAM), there are few issues. However, there are those who won't, or don't, and you have to be prepared to adapt, improvise and overcome.
 
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....nearly every arrival has been "interesting.".... you have to be prepared to adapt, improvise and overcome.

Yep, that's the fun part of flying into OSH. I love the challenge, and I don't think I'm alone. Myself and some buds even practice tight right-hand patterns at the home drome, complete with "tight circle to land" go-arounds. Good reason too. Got to do one last year when a TriPacer cut into final, and this year when the departure and arrival pink shirts apparently got crossed up. Somebody launched a Cherokee down 27 just as I passed overhead aiming for the green dot.

Knothead Of The Day on Friday afternoon had to be the Mooney driver who called with a long-winded request to enter the Ripon Approach at Fisk. Amazingly, they let him. When sent east along Fisk Ave for 18, he went to the lake and turned right, apparently planning a downwind, base and final to 36. Idiot.
 
On my way into Osh, I entered the arrival at the southwest corner of Green Lake to follow along the shore to Ripon and have ample time and space to get set up for 90 kts @1800 and look for traffic. Traffic was pretty sparse since it was about lunchtime on Sunday and there were still many rain showers about the area. Right about the time I reached Ripon, I saw a V-tail Bonanza about a mile ahead of me and suddenly a Cessna merged in between the Bo and myself so I slowed down a bit to maintain a 1/2 mile behind the Cessna. The Cessna kept flying about 1/4 mile to the right of the tracks and I kept my spinner directly over the tracks, maintaining the 1/2 mile distance to the point where the Cessna should have been if he had been flying directly over the tracks. As I got near Fisk, the Cessna slowed down about 5-10 mph and I also slowed down a bit to maintain safe spacing when the Fisk controller asks if the RVs approaching were a flight of 2. Another RV was apparently about to fly up my tail, and he announced over the radio that he was the 2nd RV, not a flight of two, and complained that the RV in front of him was going too slow! Really? 95 mph is too slow??? Yes it's not 90 kts, but it's a certainly a perfectly safe speed to fly an RV and maintaining safe spacing distance is vastly more important in this situation where it's commonplace to encounter slower planes to not keep up exactly 90 kts the whole way in. I wonder what the gentleman in the other RV would've thought if he'd been behind a Ercoupe or a Cub instead?
 
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