So lets say you find yourself caught above the clouds in an RV-12 with dual Skyview touch screens. What do you have available to you within Skyview to get back through the clouds in this emergency? Bremerton (KPWT) for example has GPS and ILS approaches to 20, but can you get that on the Skyview screen? ATC can vector you to the localizer, but then what? Rules don't count in this situation. What is the best way to get down through the cloud layer and then land visually to fly again someday. If you have Foreflight and an iPad onboard, I can imagine using the IFR approach plate. Can the iPad screen be replicated on the Skyview screen?
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Skyview use if caught above clouds
- Thread starter jveatch
- Start date
EDIT - My response is hypothetical only, and assumes that the safest choice is to avoid this situation altogether. And if not instrument rated, current, and flying a legally IFR capable aircraft, any descent or continuation of flight into IMC is a really bad idea - just read the NSTB reports. But you have posed the question as a hypothetical emergency situation so.....
A key question is what is below you - is there legal VFR below the clouds? If so then vectors to the nearest airport on an obstruction-free path to a runway using the EFIS/autopilot to keep wings level seems to be a safe and reasonable strategy. (Line up above the clouds to minimize turns in IMC)
If it's IFR below then I think it is very situational - my RV-12 has Garmin G3X touch - I might use its extended runway centerline feature along with foreflight localizer approaches (for altitude references) to fly a localizer type approach to very conservative minimums using the extended runway centerline as the "localizer" and with ATC assisting with appropriate altitudes at fixes along the way. I don't think it would be safe to try an ILS (glideslope) type approach without an approved ILS source. I wouldn't try RNAV without an approved WAAS GPS - but I got my instrument rating pre-RNAV GPS approaches so I might need some education on the topic!
Another option that I would always consider in a situation like this is to ask for a precision radar approach (PAR) to a military runway - you are talking about an emergency after all. (I'm assuming the military still has this capability). This would be for a worst case scenario where the ceiling is very low and you are out of options.
This discussion assumes an instrument rated pilot (understanding its an emergency). Autopilot adds a layer of safety in the descent to VFR below, and may be helpful in staying on a course to a runway.
Best strategy - the one I personally follow - is to always have legal VFR below (meaning I'm not flying over a ceiling) or within easy gliding distance (with visual ground contact at all times). I know that it's technically legal (EDIT - for a private pilot or better, not a sport pilot) to fly "over the top" of a ceiling but in an airplane that's not legally IFR and if not a current instrument pilot I don't think it's a good idea. (EDIT - NOTE - Others have pointed out that pilots flying under sport pilot rules/privileges cannot legally fly over the top - all the more reason to avoid this type of situation).
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It is not legal for a Sport pilot, even a Private pilot with an instrument rating who is exercising Sport pilot privileges, to fly "over the top". Part 61.315
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"Best strategy - the one I personally follow - is to always have legal VFR below (meaning I'm not flying over a ceiling) or within easy gliding distance. I know that it's technically legal to fly "over the top" of a ceiling but in a airplane that's not legally IFR and if not a current instrument pilot I don't think it's a good idea."
For pilots flying under light sport rules (most people flying RV-12s?), it requires a minimum of 3 statute miles visibility and contact with the ground. At best the ceiling could be broken with enough ground contact to descend below it.
This where an autopilot can be a useful safety device allowing a controlled descent through clouds, if caught out, away from controlled airspace and terrain hopefully.
For pilots flying under light sport rules (most people flying RV-12s?), it requires a minimum of 3 statute miles visibility and contact with the ground. At best the ceiling could be broken with enough ground contact to descend below it.
This where an autopilot can be a useful safety device allowing a controlled descent through clouds, if caught out, away from controlled airspace and terrain hopefully.
Good point - I am a private pilot (with medical) with an instrument rating (not current) flying a light sport aircraft. It is legal, but not smart, for me to fly over the top and I was assuming the OP might also be in a similar circumstance. And as I stated, if I can't legally and safely descend through it, I'm not flying over it.
But we started with a hypothetical - emergency situation / inadvertent "over the top" - that's what I was responding to and I always try to think about what I would do in unplanned/emergency situations.
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Well said, and I wasn't even aware that a broken ceiling would be legal for sport pilots to meet the visual contact requirement (assumed scattered or better). I've made corrections to my earlier posts to reflect the difference as I was thinking of private pilot privileges. In any case we all agree it's best to avoid the situation from the outset.
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Broken is a ceiling and for sport pilots a potential trap as there is a range of broken (before becoming scattered or overcast). For sport pilots contact with the ground is paramount and a wise sport pilot would use 'contact with the ground' as not just seeing it but being able to use it to escape from being trapped on top.
I know you're an instrumented pilot and understand the VFR on top ability for both IFR and VFR pilots.
Harvey rv12
Well Known Member
Is there a way to use just 1 axis of the autopilot ?, roll only, and you can control the descent manually ?.
Tom O.
Tom O.
In my case heading or nav mode only - control altitude with trim/throttle. Also could use heading/nav plus IAS (indicated airspeed) and use throttle to control altitude/rate of descent - this is the technique I use for climb and it works very well. I need to try it on a descent sometime (typically use vertical speed mode for descent)
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For the original post,
it is a valid question. It is good to expand your knowledge of your equipment. I think you could best answer your question by finding a local pilot who has a working knowledge of the Skyview in your configuration (he doesn't have to be a CFI). Discuss your particular setup and ask his advice. Go flying together and learn more about what your equipment in your airplane can do for you, both in normal flight operations and in difficult situations. These are very capable devices, but it takes a bit of effort to learn how to get the most out of them. Enjoy the challenge!
it is a valid question. It is good to expand your knowledge of your equipment. I think you could best answer your question by finding a local pilot who has a working knowledge of the Skyview in your configuration (he doesn't have to be a CFI). Discuss your particular setup and ask his advice. Go flying together and learn more about what your equipment in your airplane can do for you, both in normal flight operations and in difficult situations. These are very capable devices, but it takes a bit of effort to learn how to get the most out of them. Enjoy the challenge!
N941WR
Legacy Member
The answer to your question is "yes"; however, with the SkyView you can dial in a descent rate ant let it take care of everything.
If I were caught above a cloud deck and knew there was clear air below, you have a couple of options. One is get on the radio and tell ATC what your predicament is and what your intentions are. They can clear traffic below, if present. Then you can start a straight ahead decent, which is safest for a non-IFR pilot, letting the SkyView fly you down through it. If you wait until you get to your destination, you might have to maneuver while in the clouds, which typically has a very bad outcome for a VFR pilot in IMC.
Remember, the average life expectancy for VFR into IMC is something like three minutes. So, if you get caught on top, try to minimize your maneuvering while in the clouds.
I would recommend you do all hood work on you next flight review. My -9 is not instrument equipped but I do have one 10" SkyView and did just that. The instructor was stunned at how easily I could maneuver the plane, without over controlling it, and line myself up to land. Once on long final, it was easy to put the velocity vector on the airport and once the SkyView drew the runway, it was simply a matter of putting it on the end of the runway. Much easier than doing the VOR / ILS thing!
Harvey rv12
Well Known Member
I have the Dynon with autopilot. I don't know how to make the AP use just roll axis. If I could do that, I could control the descent by flying a gradual descent. I need to read more into the controls of the Dynon AP.
Some people
can read a manual and go flying and make the autopilot do it on the first try. Some of us need to be shown first, and then can read the manual and make sense of it. Some of us need to sleep with the manual under the pillow. If you think you would like to know more about your display or autopilot, try this - Every time you go flying, take a few minutes first to read about just 1 simple function, maybe setting up a constant rate of descent or displaying and tracking the extended runway centerline. Practice that 1 simple task during the flight for just a few minutes. Then the next flight try another task that you've wanted to learn. You'll be surprised how much you can improve your knowledge this way. Don't forget to look outside...
can read a manual and go flying and make the autopilot do it on the first try. Some of us need to be shown first, and then can read the manual and make sense of it. Some of us need to sleep with the manual under the pillow. If you think you would like to know more about your display or autopilot, try this - Every time you go flying, take a few minutes first to read about just 1 simple function, maybe setting up a constant rate of descent or displaying and tracking the extended runway centerline. Practice that 1 simple task during the flight for just a few minutes. Then the next flight try another task that you've wanted to learn. You'll be surprised how much you can improve your knowledge this way. Don't forget to look outside...
ASR
If I were in that situation (non-instrument rated in a non-IFR aircraft), and an undercast formed underneath me (it happens around here at times...not in the forecast...with all the gulf moisture)..........I would (hope I would):
1. Dial-in the nearest tower (or 121.5) and say: "Pan-pan, pan-pan, pan-pan"
2. ask for nearest VFR. If out of fuel range, ask for an ASR APPROACH. If they don't have the radar to do it they will hand you off to somewhere it can be done.
3. they will give you left and right turns in small increments and tell you when to descend. use that amazing EFIS to help you do it smooth and correct (you're under enough stress)
Once down, have a soda, visit the tower to thank the guy on the scope, then fill out the appropriate NASA paperwork on the ground, and order the IFR training books
Everyone wins!
fmi: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/March/feature-radar.html
fmi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan
My .02....
If I were in that situation (non-instrument rated in a non-IFR aircraft), and an undercast formed underneath me (it happens around here at times...not in the forecast...with all the gulf moisture)..........I would (hope I would):
1. Dial-in the nearest tower (or 121.5) and say: "Pan-pan, pan-pan, pan-pan"
2. ask for nearest VFR. If out of fuel range, ask for an ASR APPROACH. If they don't have the radar to do it they will hand you off to somewhere it can be done.
3. they will give you left and right turns in small increments and tell you when to descend. use that amazing EFIS to help you do it smooth and correct (you're under enough stress)
Once down, have a soda, visit the tower to thank the guy on the scope, then fill out the appropriate NASA paperwork on the ground, and order the IFR training books
Everyone wins!fmi: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/March/feature-radar.html
fmi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan
My .02....
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N941WR
Legacy Member
No
No
Yes. It will display your position on the plate.
I don't believe it will without a "certified" nav source, such as an Avidyne IFD540 or IFD440.
Remember, to be legal to fly IFR with a GPS, that GPS source needs to be "certified". VOR's are a different story because you "certify" them as part of your instrument check w/in the preceding 30 days. This means you can legally fly and instrument approach with a handheld VOR/ILS receiver, if you have documented that it is accurate.
With GPS equipment, that certification is up to the instrument manufacture and to my knowledge, none of the EFIS manufactures have gone through the certification process for their experimental GPS receivers. However, you can connect your SkyView (or whatever) to a "certified" GPS receiver and be legal.
N941WR
Legacy Member
That is exactly how my mind would work, if I were caught "accidently" in IMC.
I've been flying with the SkyView for a number of years now and it is an amazing piece of equipment!
If you have their ADSB box the upgrade to be compliant is going to be very easy, just a $590 antenna upgrade. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it IFR legal.
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If you were caught above the clouds but have enough training to read an ILS approach plate and execute the approach then I would think you also had the situational sense to have avoided being stuck on top.
That said?you have a radio to tune to 121,.5 to declare an emergency. ATC can assign you a transponder code OR you can squawk 7700 and allow them to clear the airspace.
If you have an autopilot you can use it to set up a wings level descent to clear air below. This assumes of course that it's not IMC all the way to the ground in which you really have messed up.
Bringing up FF and iPads is way too much distraction at this point.
Aviate, communicate and navigtate.
Think situational awareness and acknowledge your limitations, as well as those of the airplane.
Phantom30
Well Known Member
GPS Position
The principle issue to be concerned with in "this emergency senario" is without a certified GPS....the one that is in the Dynon or Garmin units has an accuracy that is about a 60 meter cube.. In other words, when shooting that emergency approach.
Mind you, the pucker factory would be at a level hard to believe because everything is happening very fast.
Meaning, when you get to 200' make or break altitude indicated on your screen; you'd possibly already be plowing up the runway..or either side by up to 200'.
So if you ever get yourself into this pickle...call ATC/approach control and request radar guidance approach (if they know you are not ifr certified they would minimize turning as much as possible). The main point is, someone would be talking to you...and that would help big time.
The new gear out to bring both Dynon and Garmin transponders 2020 compliant does have me interested as my understanding the cube shrinks to one meter. If that's the case, it opens up new possibilities..(remember though that the "certified GPS navigators" have a more robust software data base.
My take FWIW��
The principle issue to be concerned with in "this emergency senario" is without a certified GPS....the one that is in the Dynon or Garmin units has an accuracy that is about a 60 meter cube.. In other words, when shooting that emergency approach.
Mind you, the pucker factory would be at a level hard to believe because everything is happening very fast.
Meaning, when you get to 200' make or break altitude indicated on your screen; you'd possibly already be plowing up the runway..or either side by up to 200'.
So if you ever get yourself into this pickle...call ATC/approach control and request radar guidance approach (if they know you are not ifr certified they would minimize turning as much as possible). The main point is, someone would be talking to you...and that would help big time.
The new gear out to bring both Dynon and Garmin transponders 2020 compliant does have me interested as my understanding the cube shrinks to one meter. If that's the case, it opens up new possibilities..(remember though that the "certified GPS navigators" have a more robust software data base.
My take FWIW��
grubbat
Well Known Member
Dumb question but....
Pardon my ignorance but why the words "pan pan"?
Edited: Thanks Bob. Funny how a mind forgets stuff, especially important things like this. Found it in the AIM.
Pardon my ignorance but why the words "pan pan"?
Edited: Thanks Bob. Funny how a mind forgets stuff, especially important things like this. Found it in the AIM.
If I were in that situation (non-instrument rated in a non-IFR aircraft), and an undercast formed underneath me (it happens around here at times...not in the forecast...with all the gulf moisture)..........I would (hope I would):
1. Dial-in the nearest tower (or 121.5) and say: "Pan-pan, pan-pan, pan-pan"
2. ask for nearest VFR. If out of fuel range, ask for an ASR APPROACH. If they don't have the radar to do it they will hand you off to somewhere it can be done.
3. they will give you left and right turns in small increments and tell you when to descend. use that amazing EFIS to help you do it smooth and correct (you're under enough stress)
Once down, have a soda, visit the tower to thank the guy on the scope, then fill out the appropriate NASA paperwork on the ground, and order the IFR training books
fmi: http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2012/March/feature-radar.html
fmi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan
My .02....
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Those recommending PAR or ASR approaches - how hard are they to do if you've never done one?
I've done about 6 or so in my life, 5 under the hood and one for real. They are not all that comfortable to do if one is not familiar with them. They require a good ability to fly by and trust instruments in a scary situation.
My own opinion is an ASR or PAR approach may be too hard for those who have not practiced them.
I've done about 6 or so in my life, 5 under the hood and one for real. They are not all that comfortable to do if one is not familiar with them. They require a good ability to fly by and trust instruments in a scary situation.
My own opinion is an ASR or PAR approach may be too hard for those who have not practiced them.
Agree - as I said before, "This would be for a worst case scenario where the ceiling is very low and you are out of options". If not instrument trained probably the highest risk of spatial disorientation not to mention the difficulty of flying by verbal instructions.
Harvey rv12
Well Known Member
OK, a lot was said here, but how about making the descent or climb work in autopilot mode.
I have a ELSA rv-12, with a dynon skyview & autopilot. I can work the ap in track-hold where it will hold a heading and altitude. I have used the 180 deg turn function, and the level function. But have not found how to use the controlled ascent or descent mode. What functions do I have to enter to do that ??.
Thanks
Tom O.
I have a ELSA rv-12, with a dynon skyview & autopilot. I can work the ap in track-hold where it will hold a heading and altitude. I have used the 180 deg turn function, and the level function. But have not found how to use the controlled ascent or descent mode. What functions do I have to enter to do that ??.
Thanks
Tom O.
RickWoodall
Well Known Member
Autopilot and all panels on synthetic view.
Just my 2 cents.
Your in over your head...all is going to sh#t....you need to keep you and passenger alive.
Check fuel...how many hours. Always leave TONS of extra to retreat to known vfr if needed.
Check airports...what is where. If foreflight....with stratus...look for the green dots...vfr airports..and aim for first...a cluster of green even better.
Get all panels on synthetic view with terrain. I have a bendix av80r with terrain and foreflight with terrain...and skyview with terrain. If there is Sh$t in my way....i will see it. Synthetic view is your friend. Use it.Redundant sv...even better.
Auto pilot and head there gently. Never afraid to ask for help on radio...on auto pilot you have time to look up freq and ask for help. But on the other side...dont over panic and do dumb stuff. Plane and auto pilot doesnt know you cant see. Ensure you know min safe alt...dont start descent till over known vfr airport...and only do on auto pilot aware of what dangers are at what height with correct alt setting. Slow and steady and watching redundant instruments.
Just what i would do if ever caught in such a situation. No pride...ask for help...get on the ground safely and regroup. Go for a bunch of beers and be a better pilot for it.
Just my 2 cents.
Your in over your head...all is going to sh#t....you need to keep you and passenger alive.
Check fuel...how many hours. Always leave TONS of extra to retreat to known vfr if needed.
Check airports...what is where. If foreflight....with stratus...look for the green dots...vfr airports..and aim for first...a cluster of green even better.
Get all panels on synthetic view with terrain. I have a bendix av80r with terrain and foreflight with terrain...and skyview with terrain. If there is Sh$t in my way....i will see it. Synthetic view is your friend. Use it.Redundant sv...even better.
Auto pilot and head there gently. Never afraid to ask for help on radio...on auto pilot you have time to look up freq and ask for help. But on the other side...dont over panic and do dumb stuff. Plane and auto pilot doesnt know you cant see. Ensure you know min safe alt...dont start descent till over known vfr airport...and only do on auto pilot aware of what dangers are at what height with correct alt setting. Slow and steady and watching redundant instruments.
Just what i would do if ever caught in such a situation. No pride...ask for help...get on the ground safely and regroup. Go for a bunch of beers and be a better pilot for it.
cactusman
Well Known Member
If you have a Seattle Avionics subscription, you can upload IFR low enroute, and approach charts to your Skyview....which gives you a little backup.
Using the equipment we currently have, Dynon does not allow vertical nav to be engaged with the GPS source, but you could certainly do a GPS-A or probably any non-precision approach just using "following" on the plates....maybe even set up waypoints by name or lat/long on your flight plan using the appr plate info.
You would the fly/follow the flight plan.... initiate the step downs on your own, poor man's appr but I'll bet it's way more accurate than the old NDB approaches....you can see how you are doing on the appr plate even on Skyview at least laterally.
But a non-precision appr would only get you down to 500-600 AGL, so if you got really socked in it would be a whole other story....
Find a military field with a PAR I guess.
Using the equipment we currently have, Dynon does not allow vertical nav to be engaged with the GPS source, but you could certainly do a GPS-A or probably any non-precision approach just using "following" on the plates....maybe even set up waypoints by name or lat/long on your flight plan using the appr plate info.
You would the fly/follow the flight plan.... initiate the step downs on your own, poor man's appr but I'll bet it's way more accurate than the old NDB approaches....you can see how you are doing on the appr plate even on Skyview at least laterally.
But a non-precision appr would only get you down to 500-600 AGL, so if you got really socked in it would be a whole other story....
Find a military field with a PAR I guess.
Great question. In the Pacific Northwest it is easy for me to see how one could get stuck above a low cloud layer unintentionally. So having a plan is worthwhile. You certainly wouldn't do it on purpose. I would like to practice this procedure in clear weather. But like you asked, the key would be establishing an appropriate descent with the autopilot.
RickWoodall
Well Known Member
Idea
Why not find a nice day and get a buddy pilot to go as safety pilot...put on the silly hood and give it some practice. We will all get stuck in an awkward, less than perfect situation one day if we fly enough.
How you handle it...determines if we read about you on vaf... cuz your DEAD....or your one of the good ones that post a great learning post on here with a confession and description that helps us all learn and be better pilots.
blue skies..... keep learning and keep flying and dont fly into the hard stuff.
Why not find a nice day and get a buddy pilot to go as safety pilot...put on the silly hood and give it some practice. We will all get stuck in an awkward, less than perfect situation one day if we fly enough.
How you handle it...determines if we read about you on vaf... cuz your DEAD....or your one of the good ones that post a great learning post on here with a confession and description that helps us all learn and be better pilots.
blue skies..... keep learning and keep flying and dont fly into the hard stuff.
The ap has to be in expert controls to get VS mode.
cactusman
Well Known Member
Select a lower altitude for the next fix, and then v/s - 500 (or whatever you need) to descend to the next altitude, the autopilot ALT will be armed and the ALT mode will capture and level you off, you will of course use power to control your airspeed in this scenario, and trim as well unless you have knob panels and auto trim configured correctly.
You need to have your Skyview set to expert mode for the autopilot.
That is not true. The Simplifed controls will fly to any commanded altitude at any VS you choose.
Same thing. You can dial in the alt you want and the VS you want and it will fly up or down to that and level off in simplified mode.
Harvey rv12
Well Known Member
i found it
I just found that section in the Dynon manual. It would have helped if I had built the plane, I would have known all this, but someone else built it.
Thanks to all who helped, I will read up on it today.
Tom O.
I just found that section in the Dynon manual. It would have helped if I had built the plane, I would have known all this, but someone else built it.
Thanks to all who helped, I will read up on it today.
Tom O.
PilotBrent
Well Known Member
Learning the AP
Don't be too hard on yourself, even some of us who built the plane (I refer to myself but I'm sure many others) still needed to read the manual several times and practice using Skyview before appearing "competent". I like to think I am pretty good with the panel now, but I'm sure there are lots of features that I don't take advantage of and I'm still discovering new short cuts every few flights. Its a journey ...
Don't be too hard on yourself, even some of us who built the plane (I refer to myself but I'm sure many others) still needed to read the manual several times and practice using Skyview before appearing "competent". I like to think I am pretty good with the panel now, but I'm sure there are lots of features that I don't take advantage of and I'm still discovering new short cuts every few flights. Its a journey ...
DonFromTX
Well Known Member
The problem with us who have built our planes - we have the INSTALLATION manual down almost to memory, but have never yet looked at the OPERATING manual.
This thread is of great interest to me, since I have been in situations where I could have used some more help to get down. I have upgraded and installed an SL30 beside my Skyview Touch, largely for the added help in one of these situations. I just feel better with a nav radio along for the ride, as well as a Sportys handheld for backup.
This thread is of great interest to me, since I have been in situations where I could have used some more help to get down. I have upgraded and installed an SL30 beside my Skyview Touch, largely for the added help in one of these situations. I just feel better with a nav radio along for the ride, as well as a Sportys handheld for backup.
MikeyDale
Well Known Member
I've only been flying cross country for a few months with my new plane and I use the decent rate and alt bug on my Skyview all the time. I have very sensitive ears and it hurts to descend to fast. I have it set at 500fpm. Sometimes, I will set the bug to descend a couple thousand feet then let my ears catch up for a few minutes....I have learned many things by reading the manual but watching the Skyview training videos have helped a lot too! The links to these are on the Dynon website. Watch them several times because all of it will not sink in the first time!
Check out these training videos on utube also; https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...=yhs-mozilla-001&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
Check out these training videos on utube also; https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...=yhs-mozilla-001&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
Here's my plan FWIW
My 7A is VFR with dual 10" Skyviews plus the SkyView pitch/roll autopilot and GPS. My plan is a combination of the many points mentioned above. It is not by the book, but it's the plan that I believe my aircraft and I are best suited to safely and successfully execute.
1) Avoid the problem as much as possible. I don't want to get myself caught on top per the OP's scenario. If that failed...
2) Consult ATC or flight service to gain information and SA (it's not an emergency yet). Is there an area ahead, behind, or to the left or right that has the highest cloud bases and lowest terrain? Head that direction.
3) If I need a penetration, I'll do it with ATC (pan-pan). Based on the info in item 2, I'll request a vector and a descent to their Min Sector Altitude. The Minimum Sector Altitude (MSA) is the lowest altitude which may be used which will provide a minimum clearance of 1000 ft above all objects located in the area contained within a sector of a circle of 25 NM radius centred on a radio aid to navigation. I'll engage Skyview Autopilot in track/alt mode, dial in the track and the altitude, and let my Skyview girlfriend descend me to that MSA. I have my vertical A/P set to 500fpm descent rate...nice and controlled.
4) If that doesn't work, I'll set myself up to fly an approach to minimums to get myself down. No, I'm not IFR rated, and neither's my airplane. Yes, I have 2000+ hours in the back of F-4s and instruct 777 pilots at a major airline, so I can do this if I need to. Like others have recommended, I practice these in VMC for this very reason. Remember, this is to save my (our) necks.
5) Once on the ground, talk to everyone who needs to know about it (NASA, FAA, etc.).
6) Pray thanks to God, go to the bar, and start gleaning the lessons.
I'm not saying this is the book procedure. Just saying it's my plan, and I'm reasonably sure I can execute it.
My 7A is VFR with dual 10" Skyviews plus the SkyView pitch/roll autopilot and GPS. My plan is a combination of the many points mentioned above. It is not by the book, but it's the plan that I believe my aircraft and I are best suited to safely and successfully execute.
1) Avoid the problem as much as possible. I don't want to get myself caught on top per the OP's scenario. If that failed...
2) Consult ATC or flight service to gain information and SA (it's not an emergency yet). Is there an area ahead, behind, or to the left or right that has the highest cloud bases and lowest terrain? Head that direction.
3) If I need a penetration, I'll do it with ATC (pan-pan). Based on the info in item 2, I'll request a vector and a descent to their Min Sector Altitude. The Minimum Sector Altitude (MSA) is the lowest altitude which may be used which will provide a minimum clearance of 1000 ft above all objects located in the area contained within a sector of a circle of 25 NM radius centred on a radio aid to navigation. I'll engage Skyview Autopilot in track/alt mode, dial in the track and the altitude, and let my Skyview girlfriend descend me to that MSA. I have my vertical A/P set to 500fpm descent rate...nice and controlled.
4) If that doesn't work, I'll set myself up to fly an approach to minimums to get myself down. No, I'm not IFR rated, and neither's my airplane. Yes, I have 2000+ hours in the back of F-4s and instruct 777 pilots at a major airline, so I can do this if I need to. Like others have recommended, I practice these in VMC for this very reason. Remember, this is to save my (our) necks.
5) Once on the ground, talk to everyone who needs to know about it (NASA, FAA, etc.).
6) Pray thanks to God, go to the bar, and start gleaning the lessons.
I'm not saying this is the book procedure. Just saying it's my plan, and I'm reasonably sure I can execute it.
Dgamble
Well Known Member
Another "what it"
Purely by coincidence (honest!), I was out flying last Friday and it seemed a good occasion to learn more about the capabilities of the Dynon Skyview/autopilot/Seattle Avionics package, which is to say it was benign weather and early enough in the morning that very few people were flying.
I've had occasions in the past that have resulted in less than stellar visibility, while still being legal for VFR. Sometimes it's as simple as flying into a sunset on a hazy evening. Sometimes it's a marginal VFR day combined with an airport that's just plain old hard to see.
I thought I'd see if the avionics suite could give me a more controlled approach to the field. Not that I would choose to do it this way, mind you, but I believe that if you have equipment in your airplane, it's good to know as much about how to use it and what it can provide as possible.
My goal was simple: approach the airport safely, maintain good situational awareness, and do it without going below pattern altitude.
So, hopefully having sufficiently caveated myself from stern rebukes, I give you http://www.schmetterlingaviation.com/2015/09/what-if.html
Purely by coincidence (honest!), I was out flying last Friday and it seemed a good occasion to learn more about the capabilities of the Dynon Skyview/autopilot/Seattle Avionics package, which is to say it was benign weather and early enough in the morning that very few people were flying.
I've had occasions in the past that have resulted in less than stellar visibility, while still being legal for VFR. Sometimes it's as simple as flying into a sunset on a hazy evening. Sometimes it's a marginal VFR day combined with an airport that's just plain old hard to see.
I thought I'd see if the avionics suite could give me a more controlled approach to the field. Not that I would choose to do it this way, mind you, but I believe that if you have equipment in your airplane, it's good to know as much about how to use it and what it can provide as possible.
My goal was simple: approach the airport safely, maintain good situational awareness, and do it without going below pattern altitude.
So, hopefully having sufficiently caveated myself from stern rebukes, I give you http://www.schmetterlingaviation.com/2015/09/what-if.html
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cactusman
Well Known Member
What Dave said.
Poor man's RV-12 GPS approach in a nutshell - Fantastic overview!
Now all we need is the new GPS....and an interpretation letter from the FAA saying that's a legal GPS for IFR, and we might even be legal!
Just to add, I have noticed that the monthly downloads of my SEA avionics package is a lot faster using ver 13. I usually download 12 of the western states, low IFR enroute and approach plates - just in case.
In the days of NDB approaches, the picture would look the same except the airport would usually be .5 - 1 miles to your left or right depending on the winds and how bad your ADF skills were.
Great post/blog entry Dave!
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Dave,
I think it's commendable of you to go through this when the weather's good.
Rather than have a nab-comm using GPS waypoints is pretty familiar and the GPS course between points on the plate will be pretty accurate. As you show, actually seeing the end result and knowing that when you're close enough you can resume the traffic pattern is is a good idea.
I think the thread starter initially spoke about being 'caught on top' and having a way to use SkyView and the a/p to get down to clear air below.
However,if the air below is IMC and you'd need to fly some kind of approach is a lot worse than being caught on top, the pilot has definitely been negligent as far as a flight planning for the weather.
Great situational awareness though! You're RV has about the same hours as my SLSA and the panel looks the same, complete with the A/P and Knobs panel. Good stuff and thanks!
I think it's commendable of you to go through this when the weather's good.
Rather than have a nab-comm using GPS waypoints is pretty familiar and the GPS course between points on the plate will be pretty accurate. As you show, actually seeing the end result and knowing that when you're close enough you can resume the traffic pattern is is a good idea.
I think the thread starter initially spoke about being 'caught on top' and having a way to use SkyView and the a/p to get down to clear air below.
However,if the air below is IMC and you'd need to fly some kind of approach is a lot worse than being caught on top, the pilot has definitely been negligent as far as a flight planning for the weather.
Great situational awareness though! You're RV has about the same hours as my SLSA and the panel looks the same, complete with the A/P and Knobs panel. Good stuff and thanks!
Disappointing
Note: username was redacted and post link removed
This reply disappoints me. The OP was looking for some advice but instead gets a response that is at best useless or at worse insulting. I think we can, and do, in most cases a lot better job of responding to questions/scenarios on this site.REDACTED said:
Note: username was redacted and post link removed
[ed. For those in the 'plan better' camp, twenty years ago on my solo cross-country as a student pilot, an undercast formed under me over the course of 3 minutes. It was not in the forecast, and went away after about thirty miles. My CFI and I planned and briefed that flight for over an hour if memory serves. The original poster's hypothetical can absolutely happen - it happened to me!
]
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apkp777
Well Known Member
I am in the "been there, done that" camp. Always seems like if it can possibly happen to anyone it's already happened to me :0! Skyview is great for enroute, but using it for instrument approaches without a IFR GPS with a current database leaves a lot to be desired.
Personally, if I had to "let down" through a cloud layer I would definitely do so by building a GPS approach from a Foreflight GPS approach procedure. With a little practice it's not a difficult task. I would input the necessary way points into a flight plan, including FAF and MDA and using the VS function of the AP I'd descend via the profile. I have practiced this but it is something I need to do often to stay current. It might be worth your time to do this on every flight or at least once every couple of flights. I wouldn't try to do an ILS as you just don't have vertical guidance with Skyview alone.
Personally, if I had to "let down" through a cloud layer I would definitely do so by building a GPS approach from a Foreflight GPS approach procedure. With a little practice it's not a difficult task. I would input the necessary way points into a flight plan, including FAF and MDA and using the VS function of the AP I'd descend via the profile. I have practiced this but it is something I need to do often to stay current. It might be worth your time to do this on every flight or at least once every couple of flights. I wouldn't try to do an ILS as you just don't have vertical guidance with Skyview alone.
N941WR
Legacy Member
cguarino;1017593 [quote=REDACTED Do a better job of preflight planning and don't get stuck on top in the first place.[/quote said:This reply disappoints me. The OP was looking for some advice but instead gets a response that is at best useless or at worse insulting. I think we can, and do, in most cases a lot better job of responding to questions/scenarios on this site.
Note: username was redacted and post link removed
[ed. For those in the 'plan better' camp, twenty years ago on my solo cross-country as a student pilot, an undercast formed under me over the course of 3 minutes. It was not in the forecast, and went away after about thirty miles. My CFI and I planned and briefed that flight for over an hour if memory serves. The original poster's hypothetical can absolutely happen - it happened to me!]
It happened to me, with the help of ATC. I was on a long cross country and was bouncing along under a broken layer. After giving ATC the PIREP they asked for they suggested I climb, VFR, above the clouds as it was clear at my destination and I would have smooth air.
After about two hours with no ground in site, I couldn't go back and had to let down. I knew it was clear below but had to go through about 2500 feet of clouds with ice but no approach was required.
There was some pucker factor going on for sure!
So getting suck on top does happen and it happens with no intention of being there.
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N395V
Well Known Member
This reply disappoints me. The OP was looking for some advice but instead gets a response that is at best useless or at worse insulting. I think we can, and do, in most cases a lot better job of responding to questions/scenarios on this site.
Note: username was redacted and post link removed
[ed. For those in the 'plan better' camp, twenty years ago on my solo cross-country as a student pilot, an undercast formed under me over the course of 3 minutes. It was not in the forecast, and went away after about thirty miles. My CFI and I planned and briefed that flight for over an hour if memory serves. The original poster's hypothetical can absolutely happen - it happened to me!]
What I posted was good advice. He also could have been fishing for info so he could press the edges of his envelope and do approaches without proper equipment, license, training, or experience. I have seen many VFR pilot asking similar questions at various FBOs because their intent was to fly to a destination that was high overcast and planned on descending through the layer to their destination. Any pilot who found my post disappointing or cannot cannot accept advice or criticism needs to adjust his attitude before flying in airspace where he may harm others.
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