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Catto prop for RV-12 ?

R

rgmwa

Well Known Member
After reading the article on Craig Catto in the August Kitplanes, I contacted him out of curiosity to ask if he saw any potential to improve on the performance of the ground adjustable Sensenich, suggesting a prop optimised for efficient cruise but maybe with improved climb performance. He responded as follows:

Hello Rob,
I am sure that a propeller of proper blade area, diameter and pitch would make a difference in overall performance. You would see an improvement in takeoff/climb especially is (as?) there is not enough blade area on the Sensenich, ie, they would be absorbing or controlling the rpm basically by increasing the pitch, or increasing drag, when in reality you should be increasing blade area, this is when you would see an improvement in your takeoff and climb performance without any affect in your cruise.

If I could find someone local to me to work with, I would be happy to develop a blade design specific to the RV-12.

Regards,
Craig Catto

Would anybody closer like to take up his offer?
 
Great

Hope that this idea takes off and proves to be an improvement. I would eventually like to have a Catto and a three bladed prop! Best of luck and skills to whomever is the beta tester. :cool:
 
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If it can be done, Craig can do it!

I've been flying behind his props on my RV-6 for over 10 years and have never found a better performing F/P prop.

Just last week signed off an E-LSA Legend Cub with a new Catto prop. They are beautiful.
 
The standard RV12 propellor is WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY too finicky to adjust. Clamping, digital levels, home-made brackets, and the fact that 0.3 degrees of adjustment makes a significant performance difference, but is just about the minimum change that can be consistently made. Plus the difficulty of ensuring both blades are set as closely alike as possible. See http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=59682

PRECISION, CONSISTENCY, and EASE in the adjustment are VERY important design parameters!

The newer Sensenich method involving rotating the blade to a stop against a selectable pre-milled pin sounds much better! But, in practice does it work as easily as is claimed? I don't know.
 
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Bill_H said:
The newer Sensenich method involving rotating the blade to a stop against a selectable pre-milled pin sounds much better! But, in practice does it work as easily as is claimed? I don't know.
Click to expand...

Bill I have been flying with the 3 blade Sensenich which came with the set pins. It is nice, but I still fine tune with the digital level.:)
 
David - I see the 3 blade with pitch pin system. So you have to use that system then fine tune each blade individually? By individually loosening the clamping bolts and using the level like we are used to? How close does the pin system get the blades? How about posting a comprehensive review of it?
 
Read the article and thought the same thing. I'm close enough to their shop (KCCR) but I'm a long way off from needing a prop. My thoughts were what's the W/B change. From the article it seemed their props are lighter. Given the arm of the prop would it be possible to take on the extra 14lb's of the 914? Would love to have that power at altitude. Perhaps by the time I'm ready someone will have it figured out.
 
Yes, I thought about W&B too, but there must be a way of dealing with that if it's an issue. (Might be a good excuse to eat more. I could tell my wife I need to be heavier to balance the plane :rolleyes:). A high performance fixed pitch prop tailored to the RV-12 would be very appealing. Simple to install and no adjustments. I'd be in the market for one. Two blades would be fine.
 
waterboy2110 said:
Read the article and thought the same thing. I'm close enough to their shop (KCCR) but I'm a long way off from needing a prop. My thoughts were what's the W/B change. From the article it seemed their props are lighter. Given the arm of the prop would it be possible to take on the extra 14lb's of the 914? Would love to have that power at altitude. Perhaps by the time I'm ready someone will have it figured out.
Click to expand...

That does sound appealing.... Craig said his would also provide more cooling, as the "adjustables" are round near the hubs, not supplying sufficient air. Sounds like he's interested!!!!
 
I spoke with Craig Catto. He is definitely interested in finding someone to work with on the RV-12, who is geographically close, which could reduce, or eliminate shipping costs. Here is his contact info.

Catto Prop
15301 Jesus Maria Rd.
Mokelumne Hill, California 95245

Phone: 209-754-3553

Tom
 
Still no Catto prop takers??? Guess I will have to get serious here. I'll plan to chat with Craig at Oshkosh this in a couple of months. I still believe that a properly engineered, and tested fixed pitch is the answer for our RV-12s. I'm not sure exactly what information Craig will need, but a started would probably be the exact pitch that we are using. and the performance that it produces. I can come up wth performance numbers, but I no idea how to accurately measure the pitch. I use a very accurate electronic level to make adjustments, and to ensure that both blades are at the exact same pitch, but measuring it, and coming up with a number of inches in pitch is way above my pay scale. Any ideas out there??

Tom
 
I just may have found some good prop pitch information. I did a google search and found the Culver prop pitch selection calculator. When I keyed in my number : 133 mph ( 115 kts) at 5200 rpm using the 2.41 gear box reduction ratio, and a 72" long prop, it gave me a recommended prop pitch of 65 inches. Now, I can hardly wait to chat with Craig............Tom
 
Mel said:
If it can be done, Craig can do it!

I've been flying behind his props on my RV-6 for over 10 years and have never found a better performing F/P prop.

Just last week signed off an E-LSA Legend Cub with a new Catto prop. They are beautiful.
Click to expand...

My neighbor had the Sensenich Ground Adjustable Prop on his Legend Cub and went through three Slick mags in less than 100 hours. He replaced it with a Catto and it runs smoother, climbs better and flies faster.

Granted, the O-200D on the Cub is much different than the 912 but I still would rather fly behind a Catto!
 
N941WR said:
My neighbor had the Sensenich Ground Adjustable Prop on his Legend Cub and went through three Slick mags in less than 100 hours. He replaced it with a Catto and it runs smoother, climbs better and flies faster.

Granted, the O-200D on the Cub is much different than the 912 but I still would rather fly behind a Catto!
Click to expand...

Me too! I was just hoping that someone closer to Catto would go through the test fit process. I'm sure that it won't be prefect on pitch on the first try, but once an RV-12 is up and running with one, the rest of us could probably just follow that lead. Heat and vibration are our enemies, and if Catto can truly improve that for us, it's a no brainer!!

Tom
 
Catto for RV-12

I spoke with Craig briefly after his presentation at OSH. He said they're currently selling a prop for the 12. Does anyone have one? I'm confident that it will be superior, and can't wait to see numbers.

Jerre

rgmwa said:
After reading the article on Craig Catto in the August Kitplanes, I contacted him out of curiosity to ask if he saw any potential to improve on the performance of the ground adjustable Sensenich, suggesting a prop optimised for efficient cruise but maybe with improved climb performance. He responded as follows:

Hello Rob,
I am sure that a propeller of proper blade area, diameter and pitch would make a difference in overall performance. You would see an improvement in takeoff/climb especially is (as?) there is not enough blade area on the Sensenich, ie, they would be absorbing or controlling the rpm basically by increasing the pitch, or increasing drag, when in reality you should be increasing blade area, this is when you would see an improvement in your takeoff and climb performance without any affect in your cruise.

If I could find someone local to me to work with, I would be happy to develop a blade design specific to the RV-12.

Regards,
Craig Catto

Would anybody closer like to take up his offer?
Click to expand...
 
AeroDog said:
I spoke with Craig briefly after his presentation at OSH. He said they're currently selling a prop for the 12. Does anyone have one? I'm confident that it will be superior, and can't wait to see numbers.

Jerre
Click to expand...

For any of you interested....test run on a 3 blade RV-12 72x59 produced 30% better climb and a few knot better cruise. However RPM's were low....a new one probably 70x59 is being fabricated for test in 4 to 5 weeks. Looks like we'll have a chose of "fixed pitch" soon! (After certification....of course) for use e-lsa guys.
 
All the info

Email from catto......




We are just wrapping up our design for the RV-12. The propeller is only approved for amateur built or E-LSA. Right now we have only ran a three bladed propeller, the cost is $2850. Craig is going to see if a two bladed prop is possible, if so it will be $2450. Nickel is an additional leading edge protection that runs $250 per blade. We do offer spinners for the RV-12 as well. We have one more design to test before we will be manufacturing. The last propeller wasn't in our target RPM but it out climbed the ground adjustable by 30% and cruise was a few mph faster at the same RPM. We are still able to improve the performance. We should have testing complete in about 5 weeks.
 
KALEWIS said:
We are just wrapping up our design for the RV-12. The propeller is only approved for amateur built or E-LSA. Right now we have only ran a three bladed propeller, the cost is $2850. Craig is going to see if a two bladed prop is possible, if so it will be $2450. Nickel is an additional leading edge protection that runs $250 per blade. We do offer spinners for the RV-12 as well. We have one more design to test before we will be manufacturing. The last propeller wasn't in our target RPM but it out climbed the ground adjustable by 30% and cruise was a few mph faster at the same RPM. We are still able to improve the performance. We should have testing complete in about 5 weeks.
Click to expand...

I don't mean this as vendor bashing (because I have high respect for the work Craig does designing and manufacturing propellers)... just throwing out some thoughts for people who are discriminating in their purchase decisions....

Since the Sensenich propeller is ground adjustable, without knowing specific details of regarding how the Sensenich propeller used for comparison was set up, the comparison could be somewhat meaningless.
Example... if the Sensenich propeller was not dialed in for optimum performance, it is entirely possible for the Catto to climb better and be a little faster.

Data that provided actual climb and speed #'s, with RPM and Manifold Pressure for both propellers during the tests would actually say something.

Maybe he would be willing to loan one to Van's in the future for some testing? If 30% increase in climb was real, I would be interested in looking at it.
 
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I would love to see a 3 blade prop which better performs
than the Sensenich. So I am definitely intetested in that.
 
test update

"...We should have testing complete in about 5 weeks..."

Wondering if the testing is still going on, or if we have already some early conclusions.

Godo
 
I chatted with them about a month ago, and was told that they have a 3 blade flying, but decided that it needed a bit less pitch, and were in the process of a new design. They are serious about going into production, once they get theirs fine tuned..........Tom
 
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Other props

Funny you mention Experimental magazine, I have an article on my worktable about Whirlwind props, that are specially designed for Rotax 912:

http://whirlwindpropellers.com/aircraft/ga-rw3b-3-blade-for-rotax-912914/

I flew a Ivoprop and was very fond of their product and the way the blades are set (GA), and the IFA solution. However, it is some travel to have the plane certified here with a different prop than the manufacturer advises. But I keep looking, I'm not too fond of the Sensinich prop and it's pricetables.
 
Other props

Funny you mention Experimental magazine, I have an article on my worktable about Whirlwind props, that are specially designed for Rotax 912:

http://whirlwindpropellers.com/aircraft/ga-rw3b-3-blade-for-rotax-912914/

I flew a Ivoprop and was very fond of their product and the way the blades are set (GA), and the IFA solution. However, it is some travel to have the plane certified here with a different prop than the manufacturer advises. But I keep looking, I'm not too fond of the Sensinich prop and it's pricetables.
 
The new Catto 3 blade w/nickel leading edges will run $3200, spinner w/center hole $530 and bolts/crushplate $210...

Gota have one when they go into production😎
 
I'd be very interested to see how the Catto compares to the Sensenich in controlled testing. Unfortunately, the cost to get one to Australia with the current exchange rate, tax, freight and other charges would be at least $7,000AUD. :eek:
 
Phantom30 said:
The new Catto 3 blade w/nickel leading edges will run $3200, spinner w/center hole $530 and bolts/crushplate $210...

Gota have one when they go into production😎
Click to expand...

Wow!
At more than twice the price of the Sensenich, it should come with a money back guarantee that it will be faster and climb 30% better.....
 
fwiw,
viking is using the whirlwind 3 blade on its 110 hp. they had used warp and sensenich but now say ''best performance'' is with the whirlwind. i think it's the identical prop recommended for the rotex
 
Just wondering...Has anyone installed the 3 blade Whirlwind on an RV-12? I put one on my neighbor's S-7 and the smoothness was much improved. I didn't get any info on the speed/climb however.

Mitch
 
Catto 3 Blade prop for Rotax 912

Hello. I see that Catto is now offering the 3 blade fixed pitch prop for a Rotax 912 ULS. Has anyone tried it, and would like they offer comparisons to the 2 blade Sensenich adjustable prop? Thanks.
 
Like it!

Wondering about performance results. Me too on the request to Van's to include this as an option in the standard kit if performance is equal or better than the current offering. I'd happily let Van's keep the adjustable prop, get the Catto and pay an additional 2-2.5 K. Hope that Van's will test this prop and find that it is worthy of the 12.
 
E. D. Eliot said:
I'd happily let Van's keep the adjustable prop, get the Catto and pay an additional 2-2.5 K. Hope that Van's will test this prop and find that it is worthy of the 12.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that the rest of the RV-12 community would feel the same way.
For that to be the case, we would have to assume that all customer built RV-12's have the the props pitched exactly the same. That is highly doubtful, because the primary benefit of the ground adjustable prop is that it can be tailored for the environment where they do the majority of their flying. This is a much bigger benefit for the RV-12 with its much lower HP compared to the other RV models.

So my guess is that there would not be a lot of interest in a more expensive propeller that depending on there flying environment, might even result in a loss of performance compared to what they could have attained with the Sensenich.

If the prop package was priced competitively, I could probably sway enough interest in getting a performance comparison test done, but at the current price point I think that is unlikely.
 
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