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Fuel Storage

L

Lonnie I. Rush

Member
I remember someone posting information on fuel storage and transfer for auto gas for RV 12. Has anyone come up with a reasonable answer to this. My airport has only 100 LL.
 
Welcome To VAF

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100 gallon capacity, 12v pump and battery, dual filters, and a metering gage so I can charge my buddies what they buy.
 
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CDL Required

Anything over 117 or 119 gallons (can't remember which I think) requires a CDL (commercial drivers license) with hazmat endorsement.
 
Small storage and transfer...

Lonnie I. Rush said:
I remember someone posting information on fuel storage and transfer for auto gas for RV 12. Has anyone come up with a reasonable answer to this. My airport has only 100 LL.
Click to expand...

If you can get by with small storage you might consider the Flo-Fast system: http://www.flofast.com/
821014039_WUbAa-S.png

The picture is of a 15 gallon jug. I have the two 7.5 gallon jugs option. You can lift a full 7.5 gallon jug fairly easy to load it into your truck at the service station. Most of my flights are 1.5 to 2.0 hours so usually one 7.5 gallon container is all I will need to refill at the pump. A significant benefit of this pump is that it can be rotated backwards to defuel the plane. You can order a 6' hose extension that will reach the bottom of the tank for this purpose.
Precaution: Use care when inserting a hose down the tank filler neck so as not to bend or dislodge the fuel return line in the tank.

There is a long thread here that discusses a lot of refueling options.
 
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bigbill25 said:
Larry,

Are there any legal considerations to transporting that much gas on a trailer?

--Bill
Click to expand...

Not that I am aware of, I think Steve has it right and it's a 100 gallon tank. I've been using it for 9 years now and pumped over 5,000 gallons through it.
 
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You shouldn't have any problem there...it looks agricultural...get some more manure on the tires. And why is there no big N on it? I thought the Huskers were supposed to be explosive...lol.
 
Tony_T said:
If you can get by with small storage you might consider the Flo-Fast system: http://www.flofast.com/
821014039_WUbAa-S.png

The picture is of a 15 gallon jug. I have the two 7.5 gallon jugs option. You can lift a full 7.5 gallon jug fairly easy to load it into your truck at the service station. Most of my flights are 1.5 to 2.0 hours so usually one 7.5 gallon container is all I will need to refill at the pump. A significant benefit of this pump is that it can be rotated backwards to defuel the plane. You can order a 6' hose extension that will reach the bottom of the tank for this purpose.

There is a long thread here that discusses a lot of refueling options.
Click to expand...

The Flo-Fast system works very well. I have the 15 gallon jug and a few 5 gallon jugs. I take the 5 gallon jugs to the gas station then Mr. Funnel them into the 15 gallon jug. Might be overkill, but..... The 5 gal ones are easy to handle and fit in the trunk of the car.

One caution, if you elect to empty the tank using the pump, ensure you do not dislodge the return line in the filler neck as you shove the pump hose down. A smaller diameter hose with a reducer may work better (tho, have not tried it.)

The same goes for normal fueling, don't force the hose too far into the filler neck for the same reason.
 
from Spain

Yesterday saw some neat fuel stations on the Web. Made in Spain. Larry you should check on patent enfringement :D


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Van's has a nice set up

Was at Van's last week to pick up kit pieces/pleasure trip. Van's graciously granted my bride a demo flight in the factory RV-12. She loved the airplane and raved about how easily it flew!!!

A year or or so ago, they fueled the RV-12 with portable red (plastic?) containers. Now they fill from a very nice rig. I'll try to describe it and maybe someone can post pictures in the future.

Looks like about 20 gallon barrel mounted vertically on what resembles a moving dolly. Attached firmly on top of the fuel container is a 5 gallon air tank - the type used for filling tires remote to an air compressor or gas station. A hose and nozzle complete the equipment.

Move aircraft and fuel apparatus outside. Connect the ground wire. Open the compressed air tank = pressurize the gas supply tank. Install nozzle into RV-12 gas tank carefully. Open nozzle. Pretty simple.

Hose is a clear material so you can see the gas going into the airplane. Didn't poke around so maybe there was a filter and gas quantity gauge that I didn't see.

No battery that could cause problems. Looks like the answer to me. I'll either purchase one of these or copy it. :cool:
 
you'd have to do something to dry the compressed air, or you will end up with some quantity of water in the fuel. other than that a pretty neat idea, i could use an air pig for general use then put it on the fuel station when it was time to fuel up
 
Seems a little cumbersome to me!

How do I load a 20 gallon drum which weights 120lbs in my Prius ?:)
 
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fuel trolley

I used a cheap trolley, which I modified to hold 3 20 litre jerrry cans and mounted a rotary fuel pump with a large inline filter on the handles I used flexible petrol rated hose and and earth wire. clip earth lead to exhaust place pickup line in can and outlet in fuel tank 50 or 60 turns later all done
 
Bykas Fun Fueler

It sounds like you're describing the same thing I use. It's called a Bykas Fun Fueler and it was designed for ATV and dirtbike folks, but it works for airplanes too. I don't use the air tank, I use shop air instead. I added a fuel filter in the line, and it works great. I don't need to see the sight glass I can tell by sound when the tank is full.

It looks something like this: http://www.bykas.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=30+gal

They are an Oregon company too, which may be why Van's uses it (if that's what you saw).
 
Looks like a nice setup, except for one thing - how do you trasport the gas from the gas station to the drum in the hangar?
 
Truck

I put the drum, dolly and all, in the back of my truck. When it is full I use ramps at the airport to roll it out, if I only get 10 gallons or so I can lift it out of the back. I'm not allowed to keep "more than 10 gallons of fuel container(s) full or not" in my hangar so I keep the drum at home in my garage and put it in the truck on the way to the airport and fill it up on the way.
 
filler neck ID

Can someone post the inside diameter of the filler neck for the 12. I'm expecting to pick mine (S-LSA) up in about a month and am starting to collect "stuff"
I figure fueling system is first.
I'm limited to 5-6 gal containers by airport regs and a bad back!
thx.
 
For those of you that have the Bykas fueler, I have a question. I contacted Bykas and learned that the 30 gallon tank was pressured tested to 10 psi and they said that the unit usually operates at 2-3 psi. At this low of a pressure this would only allow the difference between the fuel level in the tank and the fill point on the plane to be 6-9 inches. At 10 psi it would be 30 inches.

Can you utilize all 30 gallons or are you really only able to utilize the upper 15-20 gals?

Of course my math could be wrong also.

Thanks in advance.
 
Dan109 said:
For those of you that have the Bykas fueler, I have a question. I contacted Bykas and learned that the 30 gallon tank was pressured tested to 10 psi and they said that the unit usually operates at 2-3 psi. At this low of a pressure this would only allow the difference between the fuel level in the tank and the fill point on the plane to be 6-9 inches. At 10 psi it would be 30 inches.

Can you utilize all 30 gallons or are you really only able to utilize the upper 15-20 gals?

Of course my math could be wrong also.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

We drain ours nearly dry operating between 4 - 5 PSI.
 
One PSI equals 27.7 inches water column. So 1 psi will raise water 27.7 inches. Gasoline being lighter will go a little bit higher.
 
mrt890 said:
One PSI equals 27.7 inches water column. So 1 psi will raise water 27.7 inches. Gasoline being lighter will go a little bit higher.
Click to expand...
I just realized the error in my math. Thanks guys. 1 psi isn't 12 psf, it's 144 psf, so 2 psi will be 288 psf. Gasoline's density is about 45 pcf. So 288/45 is about 6 feet. Now it makes sense.
 
I run mine dry regularly with no problem at all. I just pump until it starts spitting. I don't have a pressure gage on it, but there's a pressure relief valve that I believe is set for 2.5-3.0 psi. In any event, I've never cracked the pressure relief while pressurizing the tank, and the fuel flow is very substantial.

I never fill the tank beyond about 20 gals.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
We have been using this fueling system for a few years now.
One modification I strongly recommend is to add some type of inline filtration.

Either in the pickup hose inside the tank or the nozzle hose.

The difference between avgas and auto fuel from a corner station in regards to cleanliness is dramatic. Even though there seems to be inline filters on station pumps, the storage tank will still build up a lot contamination.
 
Fuel caddy....gotta be one that's best???

I Googled 'fuel caddy', and see a zillion different kinds, for ATV, snowmobile, marine, racing, but haven't seen one that really addresses the 'station to plane' issue.
anyone done a vehicle fuel tank-to-aircraft transfer? (I'm sure there's potential issues there as well).

N.B. what's the basket/hose coupling size on a KC-135?:rolleyes:
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
We have been using this fueling system for a few years now.
One modification I strongly recommend is to add some type of inline filtration.

Either in the pickup hose inside the tank or the nozzle hose.
n.
Click to expand...

Roger what Scott says - I have one (which was installed by Steve Rush.)

Here's another set of mods I made - I removed the drum bung and installed a copper or brass 4 inch pipe nipple extending up from the top of the drum, with a brass cap on top. I installed the nipple into the threaded bung hole with a conductive paste (the drum is steel), and the cap with fuel proof sealant. I pressure checked the nipple and cap.

Then, I attached a brass grounding clamp secured to the barrel of the nipple.

I also ran a ground wire from the nozzle to the drum grounding clamp; the fill hose is plastic. I secured the nozzle ground wire to the fill line with alternating electrical tape and zip-ties. Fuel flow through a plastic hose can generate a static charge, creating a potential between the nozzle and the drum.

During fueling, the airplane, drum, and nozzle are all grounded to a common, verified robust ground. I make sure the nozzle is riding on the filler neck.

During my Annual in April, I plan to also install an airframe grounding lug. I think the muffler/exhaust pipe are not a robust airframe ground. I am also going to check to make sure the filler neck has a good bond to the airframe.

I am a static electricity/grounding freak.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
NASA515 said:
During my Annual in April, I plan to also install an airframe grounding lug. I think the muffler/exhaust pipe are not a robust airframe ground.
Click to expand...

Since I am already fueling from behind the wing anyway, I just use the tail tie down ring for a ground connection.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
We have been using this fueling system for a few years now.
One modification I strongly recommend is to add some type of inline filtration.

Either in the pickup hose inside the tank or the nozzle hose.

The difference between avgas and auto fuel from a corner station in regards to cleanliness is dramatic. Even though there seems to be inline filters on station pumps, the storage tank will still build up a lot contamination.
Click to expand...

I was intending on filling the fueler via plastic cans from gas station and using a Mr. Funnel into fueler. I've been fueling via Mr. Funnel for over a year from the same gas station and gasculator screen is quite clean, so I think I'm OK.
 
Larry,
Where did you get your hand crank pump? Your set-up looks like something I would use to fuel my RV12.
 
funflying said:
Larry,
Where did you get your hand crank pump? Your set-up looks like something I would use to fuel my RV12.
Click to expand...

This is not my design nor have I fabricated one. In time unless another option I like better, I will probably make one similar to this. If anyone recognizes the plane have the builder please jump in and give an update.
 
Sorry Larry. I printed out the photo and read your post again and it was clear that this set-up was not yours. I have been looking at the parts involved and this application I believe will for me. I was looking for some of these parts and the pump looks like the one sold at Harbor Freight and the filter looks like one listed prior.
 
AZLeeJay said:
Can someone post the inside diameter of the filler neck for the 12. I'm expecting to pick mine (S-LSA) up in about a month and am starting to collect "stuff"
I figure fueling system is first.
I'm limited to 5-6 gal containers by airport regs and a bad back!
thx.
Click to expand...

I am also limited to 5 gal container by airport rules, here is how I organize my refueling:
- Have 3 five gal containers, 2 plastic and 1 metal
- Each 5 gal containers can easily be carried full from/to the car.
- Refueling with a 5 gal full container is tricky given the height of the filler neck. I have a 2.5 gal container that I fill from a full container, then I can dump the remaining 2.5 gal directly from the 5 gal container.
- When refueling I always empty the plastic containers first and keep the metal container last so that if there is gas left it is legit staying in the metal can in my hangar.
- Always use a funnel with a mesh filter

- No back has been hurt so far using this method!

Also after advice from my local Rotax specialist, I avoid using gas with ethanol, particularly in winter: Ethanol gas start degrading after 1 month of storage in your tank (this was confirmed by Brian Carpenter from Rainbow aviation during his Repairman Inspection course). I had recently to dump the full content of my tank after it had been sitting for 2 months during January and February - did not want to take a chance. :eek:
After failing to find a satisfactory siphoning contraption,I used a gascolator test tube that has its bottom cut-off. The truncated tube goes straight into the opening of a 5 gal container. It took me some time (I would say 30-45 minutes for 15 gal) but I am sure I got everything out as opposed to siphoning.
 
Bykas pump - what inline filter?

rvbuilder2002 said:
We have been using this fueling system for a few years now.
One modification I strongly recommend is to add some type of inline filtration.

Either in the pickup hose inside the tank or the nozzle hose.

The difference between avgas and auto fuel from a corner station in regards to cleanliness is dramatic. Even though there seems to be inline filters on station pumps, the storage tank will still build up a lot contamination.
Click to expand...

I bought the Bykas pump and a 30 gal barrel. What inline filter would you recommend? Will an inline filter impact the pump pressure?
 
Fuel tank apparatus

If you have a pickup, how about a set of these?

http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=1751 http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200322214_200322214

I'm guessing you could run the pump off the truck battery but then you have to keep the truck on to not drain the battery. You could also keep a second battery handy just for the pump, but then keep it on the charger when not using it since there won't be an alternator charging it.

I have a toolbox in my tuck so I would be using the L version of the fuel tank. Does this seem like a good way to go?
 
If you are going to use a water separation type filter, keep a close eye on them. They will rust and you can end up with "rust dust" in your fuel system. Ask me how I know!
 
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