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Night Flight?

Rik

Member
I read somewhere that it was not legal to fly an LSA at night. Same for a SLSA?

Is this true? The RV12 has landing lights, strobe lights and anti collision lights so it would appear it would be legal to fly at night.

Another issue I read was that being the ROTAX is a non certified engine it was not legal to flight at night either??

Anyone here fly at night?
 
Certification of the pilot and the airplane are two seperate issues....

I read somewhere that it was not legal to fly an LSA at night. Same for a SLSA?

Is this true? The RV12 has landing lights, strobe lights and anti collision lights so it would appear it would be legal to fly at night.

Another issue I read was that being the ROTAX is a non certified engine it was not legal to flight at night either??

Anyone here fly at night?

A sport pilot can not fly at night.

A light sport aircraft can be flown at night by a pilot that is qualified (private pilot) if the airplane is properly equipped.

The engine has no baring on whether the airplane can be flown at night.
 
...Another issue I read was that being the ROTAX is a non certified engine it was not legal to flight at night either??

Anyone here fly at night?

Although my RV-9 has an ECI engine that I assembled, it is not a "certified" engine and I do fly at night.
 
What Scott said.....

The night flying restriction is on the sport-pilot, not the aircraft.
 
I put all the lights on mine, two landing lights even. You never know when you may run into headwinds on the way home, or the sun decides to go down early on you, etc, etc. (Private pilot with no medical)
QUOTE=Mel;993167]The night flying restriction is on the sport-pilot, not the aircraft.[/QUOTE]
 
I put all the lights on mine, two landing lights even. You never know when you may run into headwinds on the way home, or the sun decides to go down early on you, etc, etc. (Private pilot with no medical)
QUOTE=Mel;993167]The night flying restriction is on the sport-pilot, not the aircraft.
[/QUOTE]

Private pilot with no medical = sport pilot. No night flying.
 
Private pilot with no medical = sport pilot. No night flying.

For Sport Pilots, is the definition for night the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time?
 
For Sport Pilots, is the definition for night the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time?

That is the definition of "night" in 14 CFR § 1.1. Unless otherwise indicated that should be the definition used.
 
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Thanks!

I'm renting an RV12 for my PPL and I didn't want to start my night flights and find out that they were not possible due to rules.
 
I have an SLSA purchased from Van's. Despite its landing light, strobes, moving map and autopilot with all the approach stuff included it is illegal for IFR and night flight. It also has no tail light!.....nobody, not even an ATP, can fly an airplane at night without a tail light. So nobody can fly my airplane unless it's VFR and before sunset or after sunrise.

EBB:)
 
I have an SLSA purchased from Van's. Despite its landing light, strobes, moving map and autopilot with all the approach stuff included it is illegal for IFR and night flight. It also has no tail light!.....nobody, not even an ATP, can fly an airplane at night without a tail light. So nobody can fly my airplane unless it's VFR and before sunset or after sunrise.

EBB:)

Are you sure the wing tip Nav/Strobes do not have the tail recognition lights built in. It is common to see production singles not equipped with the tail nav light on the rudder or vertical stab.
 
I have an SLSA purchased from Van's. Despite its landing light, strobes, moving map and autopilot with all the approach stuff included it is illegal for IFR and night flight. It also has no tail light!.....nobody, not even an ATP, can fly an airplane at night without a tail light. So nobody can fly my airplane unless it's VFR and before sunset or after sunrise.

EBB:)

Who told you that? What exactly do the operating limitations in your aircraft say?

It's quite true that you can't operate it IFR because it's not equipped for IFR ops (no certified approach or enroute navigation system). But, if it's properly equipped for night flight (using Vans lighting package works), then it can be flown by a properly certificated pilot (private pilot, not sport pilot) as long as the aircraft's operating limitations don't disallow it. If your op limits state that the aircraft may be operated Day VFR only, yet it is equipped for night flight, you can get the op limits modified with the FSDO by filing a new application for airworthiness certificate form. I've been dealing with just this on a couple of RV-12s recently. One of the aircraft's op limits allows night flight if properly equipped, and the other one's says "Day VFR only." So, the second set of ops limits is in the process of being changed to remove the "daytime only" restriction, since the proper lights have been installed.

Also, a white tail-mounted light is not specifically required. What *is* required is a white position light visible from behind (regardless of mounting location). The standard wingtip lights provided by Vans as an option on the RV-12 (incl SLSA) accomplish this.
 
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I have an SLSA purchased from Van's. Despite its landing light, strobes, moving map and autopilot with all the approach stuff included it is illegal for IFR and night flight. It also has no tail light!.....nobody, not even an ATP, can fly an airplane at night without a tail light. So nobody can fly my airplane unless it's VFR and before sunset or after sunrise.

EBB:)
91.205(c) just says "Approved position lights". I guess I honestly don't know whether those on our -12's are "approved" or not.
 
For Mike H:
Yep...I'm sure.

And also: you are not the only guy on these pages with a brain!


EBB:-(


The aft facing (white) position light(s) do not have to be on the tail....
The lights on your airplanes wing tips have white lights on the aft portion that meets the lighting requirements.

Turn on your nav lights and look at them from the rear. I am sure you will find that you were not as sure as you thought you were.
 
A bit of a deviation but let me ask anyway. This thread made me actually go look at 91.205, which is what my operating limitations refer to regarding Night and IFR flight. The word "approved" appears quite a number of times but not once in the IFR equipment paragraph d. Paragraph e (flight above 24,000 ft) refers to "approved DME or a suitable RNAV system" but there doesn't seem to be anything in the entire document that refers to a "certified approach or enroute navigation system" or anything like that. What is that establishes that requirement?
 
...there doesn't seem to be anything in the entire document that refers to a "certified approach or enroute navigation system" or anything like that. What is that establishes that requirement?

Those were my own paraphrasing words to try to describe what's actually needed to operate in the IFR system, and maybe not the best choice of words. I should have said "approved" or "authorized" rather than "certified." The FARs you referenced require "Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown," and similar words appear in other areas such as 14 CFR 125.203 (which lists a lot of what's required for IFR operations).

I'm realizing this is an Internet can of worms in terms of specific terminology and interpretation. I'll just point to this link and then suggest a new thread for discussion. :)

http://www.myrv10.com/tips/IFR/KeithThomassen.html
 
Thanks, didn't mean to imply I was picking on your specific words, they just expressed my question as good as any other way. Good discussion at the link ...
 
While the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) is not usually considered a source document, it has quite a thorough discussion of GPS receiver requirements beginning in section 1-1-19 d.
 
I have an SLSA purchased from Van's. Despite its landing light, strobes, moving map and autopilot with all the approach stuff included it is illegal for IFR and night flight. It also has no tail light!.....nobody, not even an ATP, can fly an airplane at night without a tail light. So nobody can fly my airplane unless it's VFR and before sunset or after sunrise.

EBB:)

Oh ****.. This is why I asked as I have to start my cross countries and night flights... hmmmmmmmm
 
This is for Rik:
Maybe all is not lost. I looked at my bird today and I found that the wingtip strobes can indeed be seen from behind the airplane. So maybe it's legal at night if the pilot is which I ain't....expired medical. I hope you can use the airplane for training because it's a superb platform for that.

It is used by a lot of flight schools so unless they have added a tail light the wingtip strobe is probably OK..

EBB:)
 
91.205 and "suitable"

While the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) is not usually considered a source document, it has quite a thorough discussion of GPS receiver requirements beginning in section 1-1-19 d.

As noted, FAR 91.205 says "suitable navigation equipment". Interestingly that is not defined for VORs, ADFs, DMEs; and in fact there are some perfectly legal, under part 91, normally certified aircraft flying IFR with non-TSO'd VORs or DMEs.

But, when you come to IFR GPS units, it's different, because 14CFR 1.1 ("definitions") actually defines what is meant by "suitable" for ifr RNAV systems, including GPS. It says, in so many words, that suitable is whatever the FAA says it is, in its various non-regulatory publications (like advisory circulars and AIM). So FAR 1.1 plus 91.205 give the sub-sections of the AIM that deal with IFR GPS the power of law.

This is not unique. FAR 91 was changed a few years ago to require CFIIs giving an instrument proficiency check to follow the PTS - despite the fact that, technically, the PTS is an advisory circular. I believe the legal phrase is "regulatory by reference".
 
I probably should explain myself a little more:

I am founder and CEO of PIABA (Professional, International Airport Bums's Assoc.) My hangar is World HQ and Hangar Flying and Aviation Liars' Memorial Center.

There are no dues nor membership fees which is good because all the current members are really good airport bums who bum my free coffee and sometimes beer....but only after flying.

We have millions of members but most don't know it; the only ones who do are about ten bums who are local around here. They are easily spotted because they have a vacant "thousand mile stare," avgas and oil stained clothes and dirty fingernails and they smell like avgas too.

They all have wives who are really, really forgiving women.

In the World HQ we offer free tutorials for all prospective members in demonstrating flight with hands and making airplane sounds without drooling.

If you wanna be a member please let me know and I will sign you up.

Thanks,
EBB:)
 
This is for Rik:
Maybe all is not lost. I looked at my bird today and I found that the wingtip strobes can indeed be seen from behind the airplane. So maybe it's legal at night if the pilot is which I ain't....expired medical. I hope you can use the airplane for training because it's a superb platform for that.

It is used by a lot of flight schools so unless they have added a tail light the wingtip strobe is probably OK..

EBB:)

As noted by Vans' employee, the "standard" lighting kit from Vans includes a white, rear-facing light on the wing tip. Not the strobe, that doesn't count for a nav light. Either you did not get the standard kit, or it is mis-wired, or the bulbs are burnt out. Something just isn't right here.
 
Now you got MY attention. I have never heard of a flight school using an RV12, Can you recite the name of "a lot of them"?

I hope you can use the airplane for training because it's a superb platform for that.

It is used by a lot of flight schools so unless they have added a tail light the wingtip strobe is probably OK..

EBB:)
 
Hey Bob:

Since you are at LVK and a retired physicist you probably know Steve Patented there and who worked at LLNL. He is a good buddy. I know a lot of people there.

I used to be (a long time ago) a CFI in the Flying Particles flying club at LVK....good outfit.

EBB:)
 
This is for Rik:
Maybe all is not lost. I looked at my bird today and I found that the wingtip strobes can indeed be seen from behind the airplane. So maybe it's legal at night if the pilot is which I ain't....expired medical. I hope you can use the airplane for training because it's a superb platform for that.

It is used by a lot of flight schools so unless they have added a tail light the wingtip strobe is probably OK..

EBB:)

Thanks.. The owner of the flight school is pretty on top of things so I am sure I don't have to concern myself with this but then again it's my responsibility to make certain things I do are correct not and not rely upon others.
 
That crept up on me, did not know anyone bought an SLSA and used it in flight training! Thanks for bringing me up to date. That is indeed a good thing for the RV12.
Don,

Here is a link:
http://flyrv12.com/get-training/

It is on Vans aircraft web site.

Note that only the S-LSA aircraft are used for flight training.

The E-LSA (or EAB version) can be used for transition training.

-Dave
 
Hey Bob:

Since you are at LVK and a retired physicist you probably know Steve Patented there and who worked at LLNL. He is a good buddy. I know a lot of people there.

I used to be (a long time ago) a CFI in the Flying Particles flying club at LVK....good outfit.

EBB:)

Yes, I know Steve. He did my last flight review.
Most of my cfi business is with the Particles. They are overflowing with members after the recent sudden bankruptcy of the FBO Ahart.
 
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