Van's Air Force
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Do you flap to OSH?
- Thread starter plehrke
- Start date
Brantel
Well Known Member
Same here!
I have to as I'm quite heavy and the nose is too high to be comfortable.
Normally, we have a relatively large tent, two sleeping bags, two air mattresses, two fully loaded back packs, a couple of pillows, towels, a crow foot tie down set, boards for under the wheels, two quarts of oil, tool box,
a spare P-mag, a six pack for just in case, and about 55 gallons of fuel, cause I'm too cheap to buy Basler fuel. (****) (cheap retired airline pilot)
Carr
LR RV-8 Schooner 49
Normally, we have a relatively large tent, two sleeping bags, two air mattresses, two fully loaded back packs, a couple of pillows, towels, a crow foot tie down set, boards for under the wheels, two quarts of oil, tool box,
a spare P-mag, a six pack for just in case, and about 55 gallons of fuel, cause I'm too cheap to buy Basler fuel. (****) (cheap retired airline pilot)
Carr
LR RV-8 Schooner 49
Sure, but only if we get behind something really slow. The -9 wing doesn't seem to care as much as your fat Hershey bar.
You callin' me fat?
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
220, 221. Whatever it takes. ;-)
I do it when flying any model except for the RV-12 (I have flown one of everything except a 3 and 4 in to OSH at least once).
N941WR
Legacy Member
Sure, but only if we get behind something really slow. The -9 wing doesn't seem to care as much as your fat Hershey bar
Same here; however, I did get behind a Zinair 801 a few years back and the guy could NOT hold altitude or speed and in slowing down enough to stay behind him, I stalled the -9. That means I was below 50 MPH while watching him climb back up to altitude. That can easily happen when you are heading into OSH while heavy and behind an extremely slow aircraft.
After recovering, I made a right turn and went back to Ripon. My friend who was following me said that after I did that the controllers told the 801 to make a turn so the traffic behind him could fly on.
Planecrazy232
Well Known Member
"Do you flap to OSH?"
Only if the spar bolts are really loose...
Sorry someone had to do it.
Only if the spar bolts are really loose...
Sorry someone had to do it.
rleffler
Well Known Member
One year I was following an aircraft that was doing 90k leaving Ripon, but as we approached Fiske he slowed down to about 60k. I got frustrated and started making my turn back to Ripon because there was no way I could follow him in my RV-10.
As soon as I started my right turn, the controller stated, RV in right turn, start a left turn and proceed to 36. He turned the slow guy north and sent him to 27. I was very appreciative of the controllers situational awareness..
Yes, I normally have flaps down starting at Fiske. If I'm following something slow, I'll have full flaps down. With all the camping gear, I'm usually at gross weight, so the flaps help a lot when low and slow.
As soon as I started my right turn, the controller stated, RV in right turn, start a left turn and proceed to 36. He turned the slow guy north and sent him to 27. I was very appreciative of the controllers situational awareness..
Yes, I normally have flaps down starting at Fiske. If I'm following something slow, I'll have full flaps down. With all the camping gear, I'm usually at gross weight, so the flaps help a lot when low and slow.
Jerry Fischer
Well Known Member
"Do you flap to OSH?"
Only if the spar bolts are really loose...
Sorry someone had to do it.
I spilled my coffee on that one
How about the 9, Scott? Vfe for 10 degrees is 87 kts. Anything more than 10 deg is 78 kts. Do you fly at 90 kts into osh with 10 degrees (or full flaps?) with no issues?
Marc Bourget
Well Known Member
I "like" the pass. In 89 I got behind a 150 that was at flaps 20. Was able to wallow in behind him, but with a 340 landing over us, the *R$&^ stopped dead on the runway. I stopped less than 5' short. By the time I calmed down, he'd been turned another way and I "lost" him. Otherwise, I'd probably just be getting out of Prison!
Yes, even the 9, but I will clarify......
My personal RV-6A has manual flaps. Half flaps (20 degrees) for the type of flight condition we are talking about is way too much. It just causes more drag which requires more power usage and potentially higher engine temps. It is for this reason that I have a flap indexer that also has a 10 degree position. This is about what I use for all of the short wing RV's.
The RV-9 and 10 have much larger flaps that produce a lot more pitching moment than the flaps on the short wing RV's (that is largely why the horizontal tails are so much larger than the others).
On the RV-9 I use what is probably about 5 degrees. On the RV-10 I un-reflex the flaps plus add just a bit more so it probably ends up being about 5 degrees also.
The primary reason I do this is to reduce the deck angle slightly, not to effect the stall speed (which a small amount of flaps has little to no effect on anyway).
The reduced deck angle (because of the reduced wing AOA) improves over the nose visibility, and it makes the airplane feel a bit less mushy.
Before using this technique flying the Fisk arrival, I recommend people practice before hand and see what works best for them.
As for comments about overtaking/passing aircraft that are too slow........
There is no air police posted along the arrival corridor so there is nothing/no one to stop you, but it is against the rules.
I know that flying too slow (unless your airplane just can't go that fast) is also against the rules, but two wrongs don't make a right.
The whole thought of it brings the memory flooding back from quite a few years ago, of Jerry Vangrunsven telling the story minutes after witnessing a midair between a T-18 and and a C-170. It was caused because of a slower airplane passing a faster one. The T-18 pilot didn't see the Cessna because it was slightly lower and he was descending to get on altitude as he passed another airplane.
I could write a small book about some of the other shenanigans I have seen over the past 23 years of flying the Fisk arrival
Airplanes not all at exactly the same altitude is one of the common problems......
ExtraKatana
Well Known Member
I like Turbo's answer. As long as I'm not directly over Fiske. Every year I hear some rightfully frustrated folks saying "C'mon folks 90 Knots". Anyone do 135kts at 2300? Does Fiske have any problems seeing an RV up there?
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Unless authorized by ATC per the NOTAM. Also in EAA's own webinar on the subject, although not authoritative, the presenter throws it out as something he might do if the conditions allowed vs. bailing out of the conga line and going back to Ripon. Not saying it's right or that I would do it myself, but just pointing out that things are not cut and dried so be prepared for anything.
See, this is a problem - people deciding to make up their own procedures at the busiest airport in the world! Fly the NOTAM, if ATC directs you otherwise, then that's fine - but the procedure says single file inside RIPON and passing isn't single file. I've had too many people do their own thing on this route to support free-lancing.
The close calls I've had on this approach have ALL been becasue someone thought that they were special, and didn't have to follow the NOTAM.
Exactly
But, if everyone that was able to fly the correct speed did........ and properly maintained the correct altitude........ and actually flew over the railroad track (do you know that if you are looking out the side at them you are not over them as per the NOTAM?
) there would be very few problems. It is actually a very well developed process that has evolved over many years of usage and adjustment.When people don't do what they are supposed to do, and then others start to do their own thing as a result, things can go down the toilet very quickly.
ExtraKatana
Well Known Member
I like the answer but I have never deviated from the Notam. I have pointed the nose up and done 65kts behind the 172 that didn't read the Notam.
They were certainly able of going faster.
They were certainly able of going faster.
Walt
Well Known Member
Amen Brother!
The controllers accept all kinds of stupid stuff, including RV drivers who think they need to be on the 135 knot high approach.
The single most dangerous thing a pilot can do at OSH is descend into the 1800 ft nose-to-tail stream when approaching the field. It's a blind descent, with a speed difference. There is no provision for a safe merge. You either do it blind on the run-in after Fisk, or wait and hope you get some controller help on downwind....and there is no downwind if landing 09 or 36L/R
Passing? Passing is nothing compared to that vertical merge.
Yeah, I know, the question comes up every year. Yeah, you can legally do it. Yeah, some builders have oil temperature problems at 90 knots they should have fixed in Phase 1. Yeah, it might make you feel like a sky god, passing all the mere mortals slogging along below. Fact is, it's for airplanes that cannot fly 90 knots ("If unable.."). It's not for pilots who lack skills, or have big egos, or fly substandard RV's.
Rant OFF.
Went out this morning in the 9A to get power settings nailed for 90 kts and try the 5 degrees of flaps Scott mentioned. Plus any time is a good time to brush up on maneuvers and slow flight. Just haven't spend much time "cruising" at 90 kts indicated. What I found was, while 90 kts might be right on that "flap/no flap" line for other models, the RV9 is simply rock solid and happy as a clam without any flaps at 90. 5 deg flaps does reduce the deck angle ever so slightly, but I found even that unnecessary.
That said, I'll probably put in 5 deg for the contingency that I get behind someone who wants to do 75 kts down the conga line. A little flap does seem to make the feel a little less mushy at 80 and below.
Get out there and practice, y'all!
What EAA says.
IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF UTILIZING THE 1,800' PATTERN, PLEASE DO SO.
Do not utilize the 2,300' pattern just because your aircraft is capable of flying at 135 knots. It makes it much easier for ATC to develop a sequence when most aircraft are at 1,800!
http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...tips/basics-of-visual-flight-rules-arrival#10
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This
Was out yesterday in my 6A sloshing along at 90kts, 10 degrees of flap in some gusty/bumpy conditions. Good to review the feel of the airplane in those conditions. The deck angle is a tad reduced, not real significant, but every little bit helps.
I concentrate on practicing really tight patterns. Thing that I work on is getting comfortable making the base to final turn at a lower altitude than I do on a normal approach, mostly prepping for the runway 18 pattern at OSH. Turning base at the blue dot, the pink dot landing target comes up pretty fast.
Marc Bourget
Well Known Member
Mr. Dye, NOTAMS are NOTAMS but when there's a mile clear in front of the "slow flight" Cessna and, as (DanH) mentioned, not everyone flies down the RR track, "squirting" around the Cessna in something with the acceleration of a RV-6 may be an acceptable move in response to an exigent circumstance.
In three approaches to OSH since '76, I've had pilots "insert" themselves from a 45. One on downwind, had his prop chained by the FAA right off the taxiway. It didn't move for 3 days.
In three approaches to OSH since '76, I've had pilots "insert" themselves from a 45. One on downwind, had his prop chained by the FAA right off the taxiway. It didn't move for 3 days.
I've also NEVER deviated.. Last year I had to peel off 3 times because of some jerk joining after Ripon. one cirrus all I could see is the planes belly.
Im going to be vocal this year and call out the idiots.
Im going to be vocal this year and call out the idiots.
sprucemoose
Well Known Member
Are you certain that there is nobody behind you doing exactly the same thing- going around you as you as you decide to pass the one ahead of you? That scenario 1) is very plausible 2) sets up a very dangerous situation and 3) is exactly why passing is not allowed absent ATC instructions to do so.
Marc Bourget
Well Known Member
Good point, IMHO, that's all part of a mature evaluation of an "exigent circumstance" In my favor, Bubble canopy. I also learned to fly at SNA (John Wayne) in the 70's. I suffer now from Cervical Arthritis from the excessive "head on a swivel" But while I felt the way was clear to pass, I didn't.
Next time, all things the same, I probably would (and should have then!).
This was the guy that cut the two turns at a 45, crossing my nose twice. I wouldn't have stopped on the runway, either.
Next time, all things the same, I probably would (and should have then!).
This was the guy that cut the two turns at a 45, crossing my nose twice. I wouldn't have stopped on the runway, either.
ExtraKatana
Well Known Member
Although I have approached Ripon, got in line and caught up (1/2 mile spacing)to less than 90kt planes, the real issues I have run into are when being released from the Rush Lake or Green Lake hold on 3 different occasions. Supposed to maintain 1/2 mile spacing but inevitably there will be some 70kt planes in front of you gumming up the works and compacting the line to where it's just hardly flyable. Although I like the idea of zipping around the Pacer doing 60kts with no-one in front, The only option is to have a LOT of fuel and be prepared to peel off get in line, then peel off again. We are not causing the problems but reacting to them, hopefully not compounding the problem. You can go practice at 90kts and hope for the best, but if you think that's the way it's going to work every time.....it won't.
As tried as the system is, I would hope for a future procedure that brings everyone in that "can't" fly 90 kts at specified intervals. I would happily wait on them BEFORE getting in line. Or let those that can do 135kts go up to 2400. There has almost always been NO-One up at that altitude.
EVERY dangerous situation I have been in on the Fisk approach has been caused by planes flying too slowly when they could fly faster. That's just me. however. This will be my lucky 13th time to fly the approach.
As tried as the system is, I would hope for a future procedure that brings everyone in that "can't" fly 90 kts at specified intervals. I would happily wait on them BEFORE getting in line. Or let those that can do 135kts go up to 2400. There has almost always been NO-One up at that altitude.
EVERY dangerous situation I have been in on the Fisk approach has been caused by planes flying too slowly when they could fly faster. That's just me. however. This will be my lucky 13th time to fly the approach.
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Respectfully, I completely disagree. While it's fun to brag about how fast RVs are, even your 7 stalls WELL below 90 kts clean. Go fly at 90, 80, maneuvering, spot landing, etc and get comfortable so it's not so much "practice" as "same old".
Sounds like that's exactly your plan. Way to go, and thank you!
Neal@F14
Well Known Member
I do the lower pattern 1800 @ 90 kts with about 10 degrees of flaps. It's what has always worked for me and I'm comfortable with it. One year another RV that pulled in behind me before Fisk complained to the controllers on the radio that I was going too slow in front of him. (shrug)
I just had to laugh....
Recall my rant (post 25) about RV boobs who use the 2300/135 knot approach from Ripon. Well, I had a lovely run inbound at 1800/90, behind two Citabrias who kept dead on speed. They were sent to 36, and I was sent up the tracks to 27. About the time I passed the centerline for 9, Sky King himself (a 310 Cessna) descended from the overhead, followed by a Beech 18. Both settled in front of me, making it a little tight, but hey, we'll manage. Then the tower controller ordered "Silver RV, make a left, fly to the river, turn back to 41, then try to re-enter." Why? Twin #3 was a Baron, descending on top of me.
I'm not grumpy about it. That's why the high approach exists. I would not expect a heavily loaded Baron or 310 pilot to accept 90 knots, because it's too near Vmc. At least the Fisk controller was sharp enough to send the twins to 27 where they could get some tower help for a descent.
Naturally, there was no gap large enough to re-enter until we got all the way back to Ripon. So I flew the 1800/90 again. Got 36R, the taxiway, which I liked enough to request next time, if asked. You zip to the end, turn left, and get flagged directly into HBC, all on pavement. In the end, a good deal.
Recall my rant (post 25) about RV boobs who use the 2300/135 knot approach from Ripon. Well, I had a lovely run inbound at 1800/90, behind two Citabrias who kept dead on speed. They were sent to 36, and I was sent up the tracks to 27. About the time I passed the centerline for 9, Sky King himself (a 310 Cessna
) descended from the overhead, followed by a Beech 18. Both settled in front of me, making it a little tight, but hey, we'll manage. Then the tower controller ordered "Silver RV, make a left, fly to the river, turn back to 41, then try to re-enter." Why? Twin #3 was a Baron, descending on top of me.I'm not grumpy about it. That's why the high approach exists. I would not expect a heavily loaded Baron or 310 pilot to accept 90 knots, because it's too near Vmc. At least the Fisk controller was sharp enough to send the twins to 27 where they could get some tower help for a descent.
Naturally, there was no gap large enough to re-enter until we got all the way back to Ripon. So I flew the 1800/90 again. Got 36R, the taxiway, which I liked enough to request next time, if asked. You zip to the end, turn left, and get flagged directly into HBC, all on pavement. In the end, a good deal.
Agreed, Dan. I got 36R too, and it was great. Fast taxi to the end, keeping the front training wheel off the ground as much as possible, left turn, right turn, and zoom on in to HBC. And good timing to boot - I was only 2 planes ahead of you and got parked between Scroll and Rolivi, with you on the other side of Rolivi. All great folks!
ExtraKatana
Well Known Member
My arrival
After a 45 min. hold around Rush Lake.....
"High wing experimental over Fisk, can you go any faster?" (He was about 70KTS)
"Negative"
"Red and White RV a mile from Fisk, Turn left over Fisk go around Rush Lake and Re-Join AT Ripon"
Second Attempt between Ripon and Fisk:
"OK Everyone we're all going to RnWy 27, 36 is fouled"
at Fisk:
"OK folks we've been informed BOTH rnwys are fouled and the airport will be closed the rest of the day."
(A-26 had just landed nose-up on 36)
Got in at 11am the next day after spending the night at FonDuLac.
The moral of the story is......EVERYONE NEEDS TO MAINTAIN 90KTS!!!!
After a 45 min. hold around Rush Lake.....
"High wing experimental over Fisk, can you go any faster?" (He was about 70KTS)
"Negative"
"Red and White RV a mile from Fisk, Turn left over Fisk go around Rush Lake and Re-Join AT Ripon"
Second Attempt between Ripon and Fisk:
"OK Everyone we're all going to RnWy 27, 36 is fouled"
at Fisk:
"OK folks we've been informed BOTH rnwys are fouled and the airport will be closed the rest of the day."
(A-26 had just landed nose-up on 36)
Got in at 11am the next day after spending the night at FonDuLac.
The moral of the story is......EVERYONE NEEDS TO MAINTAIN 90KTS!!!!
