Landing the RV-6

I had responded to a thread by Paul where he was talking about the differences he experienced landing the -8 and the -6. I am copying my response here in hopes of more -6 guys seeing it.

In an odd sort of way, it's good to hear of some "high timers" struggling a bit with landing the -6. After nine years of flying my -4 with no landing issues, I have found my landings in my -6 to be inconsistent at best. They're coming around with time but still not to a point where I can predict the quality of the touch down with any certainty.
I usually did a three point landing with the -4 and yet I could wheel land it okay. With the -6, I'm still searching for the secret to a three point and it seems a wheel landing requires a lot of excess speed to keep from being in a three point position near the touch down. I typically use full flaps. The -6 seems to decelerate quicker near the stall, too, which took some time for me adapt to.
So, the question of day for you high time -6 drivers is: what speed should I be flying in the flare for a wheel landing? My airplane stalls at 57 mph indicated with full flaps. Also, my CG is normal for a -6.
I would appreciate any words of wisdom.

Steve Hamer
RV-6
0-360 BA Hartzell
Apple Valley, Ca.

Land three point 70 mph with half flaps, and report back

Modified three point...

My -6 lands best in a tail-low wheel landing - almost a three point but not quite. Right when the mains get planted I push just a tad forward on the stick to get the tailwheel back up...it's maybe 6" from the ground when the mains kiss. This gives me visibility I want for the rollout and better rudder authority.

Also, having manual flaps I can always opt to dump them in about a third of a second to make the plane stop flying RIGHT NOW (useful for slick runways).

b,
dr

Wheel Landings

I am surely not a seasoned vet, but I was struggling with wheel landings in my 6 also. I flew a Cessna 140 for quite a while and did wheel landings with the power pulled all the way off. I was trying to land the 6 more or less the same way, which was a mistake. What I finally figured out that works for me is full flaps, same approach speed as a 3 pointer but keep a little power on, when your close to touching, focus (look) way down the runway, feel your way onto the runway with a bit of power. Once the mains touch, ease the power off and ease a little forward pressure on the stick.

I am just guessing, but I'll bet you will get many different suggestions. Good luck!

Jim

Not sure who has the most landings in a -6 but will throw out what I know.

Get your seating position as HIGH as you can without hitting your head on the canopy. LEARN what your view is in the three point position sitting on the round when you taxi and run up. MEMORIZE IT! Doug's tail low wheel landing is very similar to what I am trying to explain but with a little luck, all three will touch at the same time. YES it does like to bounce. I can make better three point landings with two on board, full fuel, and lots of baggage.

FLY the airplane down the runway in the taxi attitude. It will land. It may feel like you are bouncing but if you ask some on the ground, they will tell you it was only a few inches even though it feel like a few feet.

That is the best I can do for you. It makes a difference if you have the OPTIONAL wood stiffeners that are in the plans or nothing. The wood helps to get rid of some of the bouncing.

Tom Prokop has the best WHEEL landing technique that I have found for the -6. IF you adjust the trim on downwind for 100 mph, DO NOT touch it the rest of the approach and landing. YOU MUST have NO sink rate when you touch.

I have done over 90% of my landings as 3-point keeping with what my tail wheel instructor taught back in 1988 and the FAA recommendation of touching down at the slowest possible speed. For formation flying, the extra speed of the wheel landing is needed.

Jim Lewellyn said:

I am surely not a seasoned vet, but I was struggling with wheel landings in my 6 also. I flew a Cessna 140 for quite a while and did wheel landings with the power pulled all the way off. I was trying to land the 6 more or less the same way, which was a mistake. What I finally figured out that works for me is full flaps, same approach speed as a 3 pointer but keep a little power on, when your close to touching, focus (look) way down the runway, feel your way onto the runway with a bit of power. Once the mains touch, ease the power off and ease a little forward pressure on the stick.

Click to expand...

Jim, that is precisely the same technique as I use in the RV-6, and it works very nicely......except for those times the turbulence is moving the runway up and down, then a bit of luck when timing touchdown is nice.

I find an approach that is a little flatter than what is often used by other pilots will also make the wheel landings more consistent, makes it a little easier to "feel" for the runway as the sink rate is brought to near zero.

Landing a -6

Thanks for all of the replies. I'll try them all and see what works best. I had been advised about using some power all the way down and it does work but it just seems like a bad habit. Gary's instructor sounds a lot like mine. However, Sam's comment about the runway moving up and down was particularly eye opening. California does have a tendency to shake on occasion. I'll just blame it on the state.
Thanks again.

Steve

shamer said:

Thanks for all of the replies. I'll try them all and see what works best. I had been advised about using some power all the way down and it does work but it just seems like a bad habit.

Click to expand...

It's not a "bad" habit. Backcountry fliers use it all the time! The choice is to carry more airspeed to start with, or carry some power. All wings don't fly alike, and the "6" is no Cub or 172!

I initally learned to carry power with the Piper Arrow. Same basic frame as the Archer, but more weight.

Do enough reading, and you'll find pilots/instructors who don't believe in carrying power, as though somethings terrible about it; while many others know it's the correct thing to do, when considering a particular aircraft. The one size fits all mentality, just doesn't make sense!

L.Adamson

Landing a -6

L.Adamson said:

It's not a "bad" habit. Backcountry fliers use it all the time! The choice is to carry more airspeed to start with, or carry some power. All wings don't fly alike, and the "6" is no Cub or 172!

I know there is a time and place for various techniques, but the technique I employ to land on a 4000 foot long paved runway will differ from the guy landing on a rock in the middle of a river. A slow flying RV with the power on will fly a lot like a rock when the engine quits. Not a good thing to have happen 50 feet up. I think my compromise might be to fly my normal power off approach and once I have the field made, bring in some power to finesse the landing. What do you think?

Steve

Click to expand...

I know there is a time and place for various techniques, but the technique I employ to land on a 4000 foot long paved runway will differ from the guy landing on a rock in the middle of a river. A slow flying RV with the power on will fly a lot like a rock when the engine quits. Not a good thing to have happen 50 feet up.

Click to expand...

I don't like low & slow, dragging it in either. My comment concerns those, who say to treat every landing as though the engine has quit; and "always" using throttle at idle. Then it's a case of carrying extra airspeed to prevent the nose from falling through a flare, so to speak; instead of a bit of power to finess, as already described.

BTW--- a RV "9" won't fly like a rock. It's quite different than a "6". More like a 172, with power to idle for most landings.

L.Adamson

-6 landing technique

After a couple of hundred hours without any problems landing my 6, I started having nothing but bad landings. After analysing everything I could think of, I found that it co-incided with a friends comments about trimming for landing when the flaps are at 20 degrees, and leaving the trim there after going to full flap. Once I realised it, I went back to NOT trimming at all for landing and wearing the extra stick force, and have done good landings, sometimes great landings, ever since !

I generally shoot for a tail low wheeler, with just a touch of forward stick as the wheels touch

FWIW,

Martin

It's impossible...

.......to ALWAYS make good landings in anything. I have over 16,000 hours and many more landings and sometimes I can't find my butt with both hands If you three-point and feel a little "bump" or bounce...hey, that's OK. Next time you may be luckier. The last few inches of altitude are difficult to judge and some guys are better at it than others....and better at it some days than others.

The old saying..."a good landing is one wherein the airplane is re-usable"..still applies.

Regards

By comparison, how would you guys explain the differences between the -6 and the -7.

The wings are quite different by comparison and I am sure there are qualities of each that are better and worse than the other.

Anyone?

CJ

Captain_John said:

By comparison, how would you guys explain the differences between the -6 and the -7. The wings are quite different by comparison and I am sure there are qualities of each that are better and worse than the other.
Anyone?
CJ

Click to expand...

Hi John,

I have about 30 hrs in my friends RV-7 as PIC and find it is easier to land than my RV-6. The -6 needs just a tad more speed on final and is *much* more sensitive to pitch input in the flare. The rudder does not have as much authority.

The -7 on the other hand is a little longer and has more surface area on the VS and rudder. The squirrely feeling isn't there (pitch wise) in the flare, and in regards to yaw inputs, it does exactly what you tell it to do and stays there (unlike my -6 which kinda sorta does what you ask it)

My friend's RV-7 flies like driving down a smooth interstate highway in a nice european touring sedan. Velvet smooth. In the pattern it is on rails. Both models fun to fly, but the -7 (IMO) is easier to get more consistant landings. I like acro more in my -6, though, so it does have some strong points <g>.

b,
d

shamer said:

So, the question of day for you high time -6 drivers is: what speed should I be flying in the flare for a wheel landing?

Click to expand...

Try flying the same approach speed regardless of landing type. For a 3-pointer, break the glide quite a bit earlier (above ground effect) and try for single smooth, progressive pull to 3-point attitude. If done right, you'll have no energy left for the floating, ballooning, or bouncing that make a good 3-point difficult when you enter ground effect at too high an airspeed with too much attitude change required. For a wheelie, try flying the same stabilized approach and round out as you're entering ground effect. You should then have plenty of time to let the wheels settle smoothly.

shamer said:

I know there is a time and place for various techniques, but the technique I employ to land on a 4000 foot long paved runway will differ from the guy landing on a rock in the middle of a river. A slow flying RV with the power on will fly a lot like a rock when the engine quits. Not a good thing to have happen 50 feet up. I think my compromise might be to fly my normal power off approach and once I have the field made, bring in some power to finesse the landing. What do you think?

Steve

Click to expand...

True...Regarding power-on landings, I gravitate toward the old-timer mentality...why trust your engine not to quit at the wrong time when you've got 4000' of runway in front of you? I know, I know...the "modern" engine argument. Your safety is not predicated on touching down within a few feet of a selected spot, as serious bush flying requires...that requires power for sure. Plus, I think it's a lot more challenging and satisfying hitting a spot power off (or at least trying). Isn't that why we fly anyway..the endless challenge? RV's aren't the best slipping machines, but that's another way to put it where you want without relying on power. If you always fly a powered approach, how can you expect to make an emergency landing with any accuracy?

I found the RV-6 to land not much differently from the RV-3...maybe a little easier to wheelie due to increased weight. I don't think there are any special tricks...they fly a lot like regular ol' airplanes!! All the techniques listed work fine and are really just a matter of preference. Besides breaking the glide earlier due to the clean nature of RV's, I don't really land mine any differently than I did my old Champ. Not to spark another debate, but it's always a 3-pointer on grass and usually the same on pavement unless it's gusty.

99.9% of the time I three point my RV6, about the only time I do not is when I try to keep the speed up on the ground on a long runway to get to the turn off. Three points lead to a slower touch down and shorter roll out and less wear and tear on brakes and tires. The thing that has helped me make consistent three pointers is a consistent approach speed. In calm air to moderate bumps I use 75mph and full flaps, when it is gusty I use 80 mph and 15 degrees flaps or no flaps when it is really rough.

Martin Sutter
2,250 RV6 hrs

Rv 6 Landings

I have the best luck leaving a little nose low trim in. This way when the mains touch and I relax on the stick it will be going in the right direction. I seem to have the best landing this way. I usually do wheel landings or if I do a three point I will push the nose down and lift the tail up for better visiblility. I usually get a greased landing about 1 out of 5. It just isnt a 172 when it comes to ease of landing. As far as power goes I dont think anyone lands a twin without carring power. I would rather be in a single with a engine out on final than a twin on short final with a engine out.

Jim

RV-6 265 hours
Burlington Iowa

Doug, that sounds like I made the right choice for me.

My mission will be more hammer down than upside down!

My buddy Bill is putting the finishing touches on his -6 and I look forward to discovering the finer points of the aircraft.

Thanks!

CJ

My 2 cents.

1.) landing a 6 for me at least and allows me to grease it almost every time.

- 70kts on Final, 65kts over the numbers, 62kts or so at flare.
- Flare to a slightly tailwheel low orientation. The tail is just below level.
- As one or two wheels touch, instantly push the stick forward 1/4 of an inch to keep the wheels on the ground
- Continue to push forward as you slow and the tail gets heavy. Use braking after that to keep the tail up as long as possible. Doing this minimises roll, maximises braking and reduces the speed at which you put down that small diameter tailwheel. It also looks pretty cool.

2) As for carrying power on landing. I always fly above the glideslope on approach and rarely use power except to confirm I still have it or to avoid shock cooling after a long decent. Thats not to say I idle it completely either as I want the engine to continue running cleanly. I have no problem with anyone using power to smooth the landing once you have made the runway, but dragging in with power is dangerous in my mind. The RV6 drops like a rock if you loose it, especially with two people on board and close to full fuel.

Original Question

If your airplane truly stalls at 57 mph, full flaps, sea level, min 75 mph going into flare for a wheel landing. Heavy or gusty winds, 80 mph. If you get under 75/80 mph, you will quickly need a ton of power or prang the airplane unless you're in ground effect and have the sink rate already stopped. I have abt 300hrs in the RV6, and approx 450 landings, if that matters.

There is a landing I did in this video I made.. Might be of use...

http://www.youtube.com/user/hughfi

H.