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Need some information/advice about home/hangar construction

Mike S

Senior Curmudgeon
We just bought a lot on an airpark in NV, and will be building our retirement "dream" home/hangar there.

At the moment, I am still in the planning stages, but thought I would seek input from the VAF brain trust as to a couple items.

Anybody out there have personal experience with ICF buildings? If so, I would like to talk to you. I am really interested in using ICF to build the house.

Second, looking for info about a hangar issue, namely the exterior surface must match the house. I am planning on a stand alone hangar, most likely metal framed, (but stick built is not totally ruled out yet.) In all probability we will go with a stucco finish on the house, which means we will need to do a stucco finish on the hangar as well. There are companies out there who make steel/foam sandwich panels with a stucco appearance, but they are rather costly. If anyone has experience with them? The plus side of the equation is that it is a one step, finished, insulated system that installs fast. What about just sheathing the hangar in wood, and having the same stucco folks do it along with the house? I would still need to do insulation, and interior finish however, so the total cost of the insulated metal panels would be offset by this additional cost/work.

Any help appreciated.
 
Mike,

I can offer the lessons learned with my hangar:
- Bare minimum is 50' x 50'. Mine is 48' x 48' with a 42' door. I can fit an RV-10 and an RV-8 but not without jockeying them around to get the one in the back out. If I had to do it over again I'd make the hangar at least 50'x 60'.
- Put radiant heat in the floor (not sure if your NV location is cold or not). Put the gas/propane/oil boiler outside the hangar so you have no open flame in the hangar.
- Use a split system for AC (might also be heat pump to supplement the radiant floor).
- If stick build, use a 3' or so concrete hip wall, then 2x6 walls on top of that to get the R-19 insulation.
- I used steal sheathing for the interior ceiling. Easy to put up, strong, no paint and fire resistant. If you count in labor about the same price as drywall but never having to paint it is a huge bonus.
- Wilson Doors work well. My mistake was not getting the radio control option. Big mistake.
- Decide what would ever be the biggest/tallest plane you would ever have in the hangar and pick a door that opens 2' more than the height of the tail. Once you do this you then have the dimensions needed for the hangar ceiling height. At the time I used a Colombia as a reference airplane as the tail was tall.
- Make the hangar apron big enough so that you can have the plane parked on it in any orientation but on a flat surface.
- If you plan on a lot of time in the hangar either build an office or such. Have a bathroom as well.
- If you have stuff to store pick trusses so that you can have a room above the hangar. Depending on what you do however this can add significant cost. This is also a means to have a guest apartment outside the main house.
- Add a rear door to the hangar, such as a single garage door in the back. Makes getting tractors and such out a lot easier.
- Insulted the hangar door. I used 1" rigid foam from Lowes attached with construction adhesive. This is light enough not to exceed door weight limitations. This insulation make a huge difference.

The last and hardest step - go convince your wife that you need all this!

Carl
 
Carl, pretty much already made all those decisions, and almost all what you suggested BTW :)

48--50' wide by 68--70' deep 16' at the eve, 12 X 14 RV door on one end, 14 X 40 RV door on other, bathroom etc.

The question I am seeking input on is about the exterior finishing-------stucco or maybe siding like Hardyboard etc. to match the house. No typical metal hangar exterior walls.
 
I used siding - but the only thing that matters is what does the wife want? I suspect the easy and safe thing is to use the same as the house.

The hangar door of course is steel siding material.

Carl
 
A friend of mine built what I refer to as the Garage MaHal. It is a metal Butler Building over 7500 sq ft with a shingle roof and dormers to match the house. In order to get it past design review he used the "stucco" metal and foam panels you are referring to. The building has been up for close to 15 years and the panels are holding up perfectly.
 
Mike,

When I built our house, I wanted ICF, but the local inspector was unfamiliar with it, and it seemed educating him (especially with regards to finished spaces) was going to be costly in terms of hassle and time. I ended up just doing the basement with ICF (initially unfinished, now partially finished). Don't pour on a sunny summer day, all that foam surrounding a slab makes for a nice oven!

We built our steel frame church using those stucco panels, I know there was some serious value engineering done to fit the budget, so you would think they are the right answer in some respect.

Mike
 
Sam, Mike-------thanks for the input.

Any more?? Gotta be some building contractors out there who are familiar with ICF and insulated metal panel construction
 
Hi Mike,

I've only seen one house being built with ICF, and never got to talk to the owners after it was completed. Looks like an interesting way to build, but when I looked at it about 15 years ago, it was very pricey. I also looked at stucco, too (meaning the current version: thin foam board followed by plastic mesh, followed by troweled-on 'stucco'.) My take on this type of 'stucco' is that it's very fragile around people like me, who can be a bit sloppy when handling gardening tools, etc around the finish on a house. In addition, down south where I live, there have been rot issues in frame construction because the closed cell foam, if not installed properly, can inhibit moisture flow out of walls. (Obviously wouldn't be an issue if applied over ICF.)

I used fiber cement siding (same material as 'Hardyplank') on my frame house, and it is *great*. Very tough stuff (I've had to hit it with a tractor to damage it), and most insurance companies will give you a 'masonry' fire rating with it. I've actually welded on it, using scraps of siding to protect a wood table.

Have you looked at SIP (structural insulated panels)? One of my neighbors here at MS71 built his house using them. Once the foundation is in and the factory has your plans & builds the panels, you can have a really big house 'blacked in' in just a few days. A small crew with a construction crane, and you'd swear that the house is just appearing out of thin air. :) Insulation is likely to be at least as good as ICF; probably better because there's at least 3 1/2" of solid foam almost everywhere. Or more if you want 6" thick instead of 3 1/2". If you're willing to pay for it, you can even use the panels for structural flooring and the ceiling/roof. Outside finish can be whatever you want; stucco, vinyl, or fiber cement, like my neighbor used.

And you could use SIPs for the hangar structure, too, if you wanted.

FWIW...
 
Charlie, no, I had not thought about them---------will look into it.

Thanks for the lead.
 
Hangar construction

Mike
First thing to do is decide on stucco or EFIS- Exterior insulating Finish System. The finished look can be very similar but there is a big difference substrate materials. Also a big difference in home insurance in some areas.

Stucco is cement based, scratch coat, brown coat and finish coat.
EFIS is a finish coat applied over insulation and fabric

For a home or hangar either can be applied. Cost in my area of building are about the same. I build in Midland Tx and live in GRANBURY.

If I were building with either system, I would erect a rigid steel frame and frame walls with wood or metal studs. I prefer wood in this application (I'm an old commercial drywall contractor) because local residential trades understand wood. If deed restrictions require the same roof then I would have wood trusses engineered and the framer stick build. Have the truss company engineer the Gluelam or LVL's header above doors. The hangar door may also require additional bracing at quarter and mid span. Then insulate, wire, plumb just like your home.

That said, structural insulated panels, ICF and all other specialty framing methods in my opinion are all to costly, require additional time and way to much trigger work for most trade contractors. I have a friend who owns a concrete company and built ICF. Pretty good builder and also a friend built the home for him. The home finished out nicely. I asked about the efficiency and he said it was very efficient but the HVAC went out a couple of days in the summer. Took three days to cool back down because of the thermal mass.

My two cents worth

Tom Woodruff
66TE--The Landings Airpark in Pecan Plantation
GRANBURY Tx
RV-10 921BT
 
Build the biggest hangar that can fit on your lot and the smallest house your spouse will allow! 400 Sq-Ft for the house sounds about perfect because you can clean it out with a garden hose and leaf blower!

Seriously, make sure your wife likes the house you are going to design.

In the hangar add a small bathroom with a shower so you can clean off after working on the plane or in the yard before going inside. A bar in the corner for the gang would be nice too.

Add a garage door on the other side from the main opening so you can get your lawn mower, and other stuff in and out w/o going by the plane(s).

Good luck!
 
ICF are really great for their insulation value. Our house basement is built with them and you can really notice the difference. They are glued together and then filled with concrete. I think you can screw the siding right to it as there is embedded plastic strips to accept the screw. Never saw an entire house built with them, but I am sure you can. There is a hanger built with them at our airport. I will try to learn more about them next time I am down.
 
Mike,
I used ICF blocks for my foundation on my Colorado house. I really liked them. I had one retaining wall on my lower level that was 9' high 80' long. Considering how high it was, it went together easily and there was much less bracing and worry about blowouts than with typical snap ties - plywood forms.

There are nylon cross members the rebar lay on and they go to near the exterior surface so you can screw drywall or siding on them. They worked OK for drywall, not sure about siding. We used stucco over the exterior areas.

I would use them again in a cold area. They cost more, but I felt is was worth the time saving and insulation value I got from them.

SIP panels are good too. Regular framing with spray foam insulation also is great. In my opinion, radiant heating is the best money you can spend in cold climate areas.

Give me a call if you have any questions. Have fun planning your new place!
 
Might have missed it, but what air park if I may ask?

Dayton Valley

ICF are really great for their insulation value. Our house basement is built with them and you can really notice the difference. They are glued together and then filled with concrete. I think you can screw the siding right to it as there is embedded plastic strips to accept the screw. Never saw an entire house built with them, but I am sure you can. There is a hanger built with them at our airport. I will try to learn more about them next time I am down.

Troy, thanks for the reply, I would appreciate it if you can dig up any info about the hangar.

Mike,
I used ICF blocks for my foundation on my Colorado house. I really liked them. I had one retaining wall on my lower level that was 9' high 80' long. Considering how high it was, it went together easily and there was much less bracing and worry about blowouts than with typical snap ties - plywood forms.

Give me a call if you have any questions. Have fun planning your new place!

Rocky, thanks, will give you a call for sure:D
 
Dayton Valley

We're happy to add Mike and Laura to the rolls of those who have seen the light about retiring to this side of the Sierra! They bought the lot right next door to us, and that will increase the RV count on the field to about 8 (plus or minus, depending on who's in town).

Dayton is a great place - one load of fuel in an RV will take us to either San Diego or Seattle!
 
Oh lord, it's a clique! I hated those in high school!

We might be able to actually join this one though. Maybe reason enough move the retirement home downhill from Kingsbury Grade.

Must resist urge . . to . . search . . available . . . lots . . .<click>

Arggghh! ;)
 
Mike,

I built a superinsulated house in CO ~30 years ago and used ICF for the foundation. Very warm, easy to do. I also used ICF on a (large) cabin before that, and it worked well. The key thing is to make sure you have someone who knows what they are doing so that the foam doesn't blow out at the bottom from the hydraulic pressure before the concrete cures. Sometimes they do it in two (or more) lifts, but I think its better to have a monolithic pour.

Greg
 
Oh lord, it's a clique! I hated those in high school!

We might be able to actually join this one though. Maybe reason enough move the retirement home downhill from Kingsbury Grade.

Must resist urge . . to . . search . . available . . . lots . . .<click>

Arggghh! ;)

There's one just down the street from us that has been listed at $50K....originally sold for four times that amount back in the boom!
 
There's one just down the street from us that has been listed at $50K....originally sold for four times that amount back in the boom!

Karen and I will be looking at that one this weekend on our way to Idaho.

The ICF building system looks viable for a home and hangar Mike. Very energy efficient and sturdy.
 
The ICF building system looks viable for a home and hangar Mike. Very energy efficient and sturdy.

Yep sure does. But then when a seller of a product is doing the talking, it will always look good.;)

Same is true for Insulated Metal Panels, and Structural Insulated Panels

I am looking for input from folks with personal knowledge of these systems, either from being an owner, or a builder.
 
Mike,

I built a superinsulated house in CO ~30 years ago and used ICF for the foundation. Very warm, easy to do. I also used ICF on a (large) cabin before that, and it worked well.

Greg

Thanks Greg----that is the kind of info I am looking for.
 
ICF

I am a GC and an ICF builder. I have built a few complete homes with ICF. They are a hard sell around here (East TN) because they do cost more than traditional methods, and most people who move to this area do so because it is a cheap place to live. They are too tight to pay the premium.

If I ever build another personal house it will be all ICF. If I lived in an area with temperature or weather extremes (coastal/desert) then ICF is for sure the way to go for new construction. Figure 10-15% premium over stick built and you will be safe. Using either stucco or EFIS over ICF is very straightforward, and will actually be cheaper than going over a "normally" framed house. With the ICF there is no prep. The stucco crew will apply right on top of the ICF. For a whole house you do want a contractor who is experienced with ICF. For a foundation or even a hangar, then maybe you can get by with someone less experienced.

On the hangar the price premium is going to be higher, just cause there is a lot of wall area, and that means a lot of ICF, steel, and concrete. But again, if you are going with stucco exterior, that may be a wash because of the savings vs prepping another method for finish.

Around here we use SIPs for the roof systems on timber frame homes. I have never seen panel systems used for walls, although there are a bunch of different types of precast/panel type deals for foundations walls. ICFs work for it all. If you want the house really tight, use ICF for the foundation and walls, and insulate the underside of the roof with closed cell spray foam. In that case you have to be sure you get enough air exchange so that the moisture can escape.

If you can afford the initial expense, you will not be disappointed with ICF. If you are looking for a long-term home, this is the way to go.

Tom Flaglor
 
I've built a couple basements with ICF's and one house with gable ends to the peak with ICFs. That was 19 years ago, I was 17 and remember snapping all those nylon ties between the foam blocks, laying the rebar in, etc. there was also some lacing at the corners and around Windows. so you see these things have been around for awhile but really haven't taken flight because they are cost prohibitive. It certainly is an efficient brick xxxx house but a bit overkill.

The interior still needs to be furred out with stud walls in order to run electrical and plumbing....

Heck the way they build stick frame homes now with all the tyvek and spray foam they are very tight and efficient. Bought a new home about a year ago and I've had to run a dehumidifier non stop.
 
When I bought a house and moved up here to the eastern sierras 16 years ago, I never thought about living on an airpark, wasn't building at the time either, but now looking at 300.00 + a month for a hanger at KMEV, those additional funds could go toward a house-hanger on an airpark............Hum.....
 
My thoughts after building a workshop:

The more electrical you have, the better. Get the biggest amperage panel you can (300A?). Put outlets everywhere. In your garage/shop/hangar space, put the outlets high enough up that they won't be blocked if you lay a 4x8 sheet of plywood against the wall. Run a couple of 220 outlets for compressors, car chargers, etc. If you can, get your main panel or a subpanel in that space, too, and try to make sure your panel is accessible to an exterior wall so if you ever need to run power outside, you can do it easily. Anywhere you even think you might possibly one day want an outlet, go ahead and run power there. It's a lot easier to do it during construction than afterwards.

If you don't do SIP or ICF, at least use 2x6 studs so you can put more insulation in the walls.
 
The interior still needs to be furred out with stud walls in order to run electrical and plumbing....

This is incorrect. There are furring strips imbedded in modern ICFs. You route wire and plumbing chases in the foam, mount the boxes, etc. Then put sheetrock or whatever right against the foam surfaces and secure with drywall screws.
 
Hey Mike, can't help with ICF building, although we almost used them for the foundation on our log home. The cost looked lower...if we did the labor. time was a factor for us to do the labor, so I went conventional concrete walls.

On the hangar cost for SIPS panels was a factor for our low budget allowance. Great product just too spendy for us. We are downsizing for our retirement so many decisions were $$ based. Didn't want to spend all our savings or have a huge loan...now it looks like I can retire this summer.

Our hangar is a 48x48x14 pole building with commercial girts. this allows me to sheet rock or tin the interior without any additional framing. we used spray foam 2" to give a tight, dry insulated building. Heating is radiant floor and will get a solar panel addition next year.

We also were told build as big a hangar as you can...you'll fill it! again our wallet said you only have 1 airplane and only need room for 1 more plus toys.
we have a studio apt 12x28 for guests in one corner. Big enough for friends to spend the week, small enough they probably wont. Garage door in the back for jeep, boat or what ever access.
I went with a 12x44 Higher Power Door HPDOORS the beauty is the clear opening of 11'6 or so in a 12' hole. Also the extra 4' width pays dividends when parking planes. I an easily get 3 RV's in our hangar even with the apartment hogging room in the corner. our actual hangar floor space is only 32'x46'+








It's been a lot of work being our own General Contractor and babysitting subs. but the commute isn't too bad some days. 4.5hrs to drive it each way or 1-1.5 in the RV. Great tailwind coming home a few days ago.


 
Brian, did you insulate above the ceiling? Are you gonna insulate the door?

Lots of light reflection from the ceiling-----did you anticipate that and plan lighting accordingly, or was it a big surprise? Is the ceiling reflection as much as it looks in the photo, or just a trick of the camera?
 
There will be 16" of blow-in cellulose in the roof and the door will get spray foamed as soon as the outside temps gets and stays above 40*.

the lights are T5's. I don't notice any glare when working in there. I think my cell phone doesn't show the true light. It looks great in person. I expect it to change look once we get the side walls sheeted.

Side note.....the exterior of the apartment will get finished soon and in the corner where we are piling supplies right now will end up as a lounge area with seating, a sofa sleeper, big screen, coffee table, etc.

come on up and check it out if you'd like. we will have room for guests this summer.
 
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