Charles in SC
Well Known Member
Do the floors get hot enough to need actual insulation or will carpet do good enough? Thanks in advance!
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Floor insulation question
- Thread starter Charles in SC
- Start date
Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
I have carpet on the floor of my -6 and have never noticed a heat problem.
BrianDC
Well Known Member
Do a search on VAF regarding floor or firewall insulation. DanH has posted a number of items on this topic. Any insulation installed on the inside of the firewall or between the floor and the bottom skin is a potential fire and smoke hazard. (He also has video and testing to back up his claims).
as rzbill points out, IF you are concerned about floors getting too hot, the recommended option is to put insulation on the OUTSIDE of the bottom skin
as rzbill points out, IF you are concerned about floors getting too hot, the recommended option is to put insulation on the OUTSIDE of the bottom skin
N282S
Well Known Member
Heavy foam insulation
I flew my 7 for about 50 hours without any carpet or insulation and never noticed a heat problem, but it was loud. I purchased classic aero's floor carpet/insulation and it made a big difference both in noise and vibration from the exhaust. Agree, Dan Horton contributed to a great thread on firewall insulation. I don't know there is a perfect fireproof solution. It's just every time we get out of bed we accept certain risks and do what we can to minimize those risks to satisfy our own personal comfort level.
I flew my 7 for about 50 hours without any carpet or insulation and never noticed a heat problem, but it was loud. I purchased classic aero's floor carpet/insulation and it made a big difference both in noise and vibration from the exhaust. Agree, Dan Horton contributed to a great thread on firewall insulation. I don't know there is a perfect fireproof solution. It's just every time we get out of bed we accept certain risks and do what we can to minimize those risks to satisfy our own personal comfort level.
BillL
Well Known Member
From a carpet and fire protection standpoint Bill had it spot on. There may be another consideration for you. That is exhaust heat. I have a 4-into-1 exhaust and seem to have a high fuel temp rise. I have begun adding insulation under the center section to validate temp changes. If using Bills thoughts of an additional SS layer, with fiberfrax under it, then all issues should disappear.
Nothing smokes or smells BTW, so is isn't blistering hot
David Paule
Well Known Member
I applied 1/16" Fiberfrax with a .020 titanium overlay to the first 16"of the belly aft of the firewall. You can see the installation here. It added some weight (about 1 1/2 pounds) and some time to the build, for sure, but on the RV-3B, the belly is the floor. Figured I'd better do it.
Titanium is one of the FAA approved firewall materials. I got the piece from McMaster.
The forward curved part? It interfered with the engine mount so badly I had to trim it off.
Dave
RV-3B slow build, still working on the fuselage
Titanium is one of the FAA approved firewall materials. I got the piece from McMaster.
The forward curved part? It interfered with the engine mount so badly I had to trim it off.
Dave
RV-3B slow build, still working on the fuselage
Charles in SC
Well Known Member
Thanks, the last time I was at Sun n Fun I looked at some of the floor pieces offered. I have done a little bit of upholstery trim work and was thinking about making something similar to what they offer.
Hi Charles,
If you're up for a bit of DIY, here's the angle I took.
Get that belly insulation on to start with. It really isn't that much work in the scheme of building an aircraft, and given the fatality associated with burning through of the forward floor, I think it is a worthwhile exercise. The 5 thou titanium is easy to work with. Here's my procedure, but others are pretty similar:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=131516&page=7
Next, you need to step up from the floor level so that you can create a one-piece carpet. I used 20mm (3/4") heat resistant noise dampening foam. Remember, although this stuff may be "heat resistant" it will smoke burn eventually, hence the reason the belly insulation is so important.
Finally, I used a marine carpet that was as light as any aviation carpet. It is flame retardant, and I sewed velcro to it to hold it in place around the perimeter. It cuts easily with some heavy duty scissors. You can sew to it with a regular sewing machine just using a regular needle and some regular diameter but high strength thread. Don't be tempted to use the larger diameter threads, as this will stall most machines. A summary from my log is as follows:
3 August 2017: The Autex Reef Carpet arrived for the floors. It is 800gsm, and although it said that it is ?latex backed? what it appears to have is a latex binder. Visited Clark Rubber and purchased the ?? (or 20mm) spacing material for under the front floor. This material know as Formshield by P&M Plastics and Rubber, and has a thermally reflective aluminium backing, but will be primarily protected by the titanium belly skin and 1/16? fiberfrax insulation. It is a cross linked closed cell polyethylene foam heat laminated to a reinforced 9 micro meter aluminium backing. K value of 0.032 w/mK @ 20?C. Fire ratings under AS1530.3 are Ignitability, 0 out of 10. Spread of Flame: 0 out of 10, Heat Evolved Index: 0 Out of 10, Smoke Evolved Index: 1 out of 10. Density 28kg/m3. Noise reduction rating @200kHz: 3dB. @400kHz 4dB.
To the carpet I have since sewn some more velcro to which I have attached some removable vinyl pads about 4x10" each. These sit where your heels rest on the floor and will mean that in the future if they wear through I can easily replace them, rather than replacing the entire carpet.
I actually found doing the interior one of the most rewarding parts of the build, and don't understand why more people don't have a crack at it. I did my entire interior for what it would have cost me just for the shipping of a pre-made interior from the US to Aus. I figured if I could work out how to build an aeroplane, it couldn't be too hard to drive a sewing machine and it wasn't.
If I get a chance, I'll get some pictures for you tomorrow.
Tom.
RV-7
If you're up for a bit of DIY, here's the angle I took.
Get that belly insulation on to start with. It really isn't that much work in the scheme of building an aircraft, and given the fatality associated with burning through of the forward floor, I think it is a worthwhile exercise. The 5 thou titanium is easy to work with. Here's my procedure, but others are pretty similar:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=131516&page=7
Next, you need to step up from the floor level so that you can create a one-piece carpet. I used 20mm (3/4") heat resistant noise dampening foam. Remember, although this stuff may be "heat resistant" it will smoke burn eventually, hence the reason the belly insulation is so important.
Finally, I used a marine carpet that was as light as any aviation carpet. It is flame retardant, and I sewed velcro to it to hold it in place around the perimeter. It cuts easily with some heavy duty scissors. You can sew to it with a regular sewing machine just using a regular needle and some regular diameter but high strength thread. Don't be tempted to use the larger diameter threads, as this will stall most machines. A summary from my log is as follows:
3 August 2017: The Autex Reef Carpet arrived for the floors. It is 800gsm, and although it said that it is ?latex backed? what it appears to have is a latex binder. Visited Clark Rubber and purchased the ?? (or 20mm) spacing material for under the front floor. This material know as Formshield by P&M Plastics and Rubber, and has a thermally reflective aluminium backing, but will be primarily protected by the titanium belly skin and 1/16? fiberfrax insulation. It is a cross linked closed cell polyethylene foam heat laminated to a reinforced 9 micro meter aluminium backing. K value of 0.032 w/mK @ 20?C. Fire ratings under AS1530.3 are Ignitability, 0 out of 10. Spread of Flame: 0 out of 10, Heat Evolved Index: 0 Out of 10, Smoke Evolved Index: 1 out of 10. Density 28kg/m3. Noise reduction rating @200kHz: 3dB. @400kHz 4dB.
To the carpet I have since sewn some more velcro to which I have attached some removable vinyl pads about 4x10" each. These sit where your heels rest on the floor and will mean that in the future if they wear through I can easily replace them, rather than replacing the entire carpet.
I actually found doing the interior one of the most rewarding parts of the build, and don't understand why more people don't have a crack at it. I did my entire interior for what it would have cost me just for the shipping of a pre-made interior from the US to Aus. I figured if I could work out how to build an aeroplane, it couldn't be too hard to drive a sewing machine and it wasn't.
If I get a chance, I'll get some pictures for you tomorrow.
Tom.
RV-7
Charles in SC
Well Known Member
Thanks for the input. I have a commercial sewing machine. I have already made my seats and I am working on a dash pad.
Hi Charles,
Here are a couple of pictures I took today.
Here's a bit more from my log regarding the carpets:
"From Foamland I picked up some Southern Cross Textiles Fossliner, which is a 10 Oz/yd2 (340gsm) adhesive backed fabric. Actual weight was 530gsm with the peel backing (yet to check weight without). Also purchased some Southern Cross Textiles Spectropile which is a 14 Oz/yd2 carpet that will be used create removable carpets for the luggage locker and under the seats area. This in turn will be held in place with Velcro (acrylic adhesive backed hook stuck to the floor panels and loop sewn to the back of the carpet. Spectropile is a latex backed polyester fiber. Actual weight of the Spectropile was 490gsm.
Weighted the carpets and the forward floor carpet and backing foam came to 770g. The under seat/mid section carpet came to 485g. To put this into perspective, my forward carpet weighs 1.6lbs, whereas a commercially available equivalent is 3.7lbs."
The fossliner is incredibly sticky, so you only get one chance to lay it down, but once it's there it's there for good. My interior was primed (stewarts system ekopoxy) then top coated with polyurethane dark grey (about the same colour as the carpet) as I originally planned on just having a painted interior, but was convinced by some local pilots that at altitude on cold days it's better to have a small amount of insulation than nothing (except up around the firewall where I have left the carpet about 1" clear of the firewall). If I was to have my time again, I would still do the interior this way. Cost next to nothing, is about as fire proof as it gets, and weighs very little for a fully carpeted interior. I'm not sure how much quieter it made it, (it's still stupidly loud inside but surprisingly quiet outside) so with the money you saved on the interior, put some $$ aside for that new noise cancelling headset. I'm running a DC one-x and love it, as my H10-13.5 just couldn't cut it with that level of noise.
Good luck.
Tom.
Here are a couple of pictures I took today.
Here's a bit more from my log regarding the carpets:
"From Foamland I picked up some Southern Cross Textiles Fossliner, which is a 10 Oz/yd2 (340gsm) adhesive backed fabric. Actual weight was 530gsm with the peel backing (yet to check weight without). Also purchased some Southern Cross Textiles Spectropile which is a 14 Oz/yd2 carpet that will be used create removable carpets for the luggage locker and under the seats area. This in turn will be held in place with Velcro (acrylic adhesive backed hook stuck to the floor panels and loop sewn to the back of the carpet. Spectropile is a latex backed polyester fiber. Actual weight of the Spectropile was 490gsm.
Weighted the carpets and the forward floor carpet and backing foam came to 770g. The under seat/mid section carpet came to 485g. To put this into perspective, my forward carpet weighs 1.6lbs, whereas a commercially available equivalent is 3.7lbs."
The fossliner is incredibly sticky, so you only get one chance to lay it down, but once it's there it's there for good. My interior was primed (stewarts system ekopoxy) then top coated with polyurethane dark grey (about the same colour as the carpet) as I originally planned on just having a painted interior, but was convinced by some local pilots that at altitude on cold days it's better to have a small amount of insulation than nothing (except up around the firewall where I have left the carpet about 1" clear of the firewall). If I was to have my time again, I would still do the interior this way. Cost next to nothing, is about as fire proof as it gets, and weighs very little for a fully carpeted interior. I'm not sure how much quieter it made it, (it's still stupidly loud inside but surprisingly quiet outside) so with the money you saved on the interior, put some $$ aside for that new noise cancelling headset. I'm running a DC one-x and love it, as my H10-13.5 just couldn't cut it with that level of noise.
Good luck.
Tom.
Charles in SC
Well Known Member
Hi Charles,
Here are a couple of pictures I took today.
Here's a bit more from my log regarding the carpets:
"From Foamland I picked up some Southern Cross Textiles Fossliner, which is a 10 Oz/yd2 (340gsm) adhesive backed fabric. Actual weight was 530gsm with the peel backing (yet to check weight without). Also purchased some Southern Cross Textiles Spectropile which is a 14 Oz/yd2 carpet that will be used create removable carpets for the luggage locker and under the seats area. This in turn will be held in place with Velcro (acrylic adhesive backed hook stuck to the floor panels and loop sewn to the back of the carpet. Spectropile is a latex backed polyester fiber. Actual weight of the Spectropile was 490gsm.
Weighted the carpets and the forward floor carpet and backing foam came to 770g. The under seat/mid section carpet came to 485g. To put this into perspective, my forward carpet weighs 1.6lbs, whereas a commercially available equivalent is 3.7lbs."
The fossliner is incredibly sticky, so you only get one chance to lay it down, but once it's there it's there for good. My interior was primed (stewarts system ekopoxy) then top coated with polyurethane dark grey (about the same colour as the carpet) as I originally planned on just having a painted interior, but was convinced by some local pilots that at altitude on cold days it's better to have a small amount of insulation than nothing (except up around the firewall where I have left the carpet about 1" clear of the firewall). If I was to have my time again, I would still do the interior this way. Cost next to nothing, is about as fire proof as it gets, and weighs very little for a fully carpeted interior. I'm not sure how much quieter it made it, (it's still stupidly loud inside but surprisingly quiet outside) so with the money you saved on the interior, put some $$ aside for that new noise cancelling headset. I'm running a DC one-x and love it, as my H10-13.5 just couldn't cut it with that level of noise.
Good luck.
Tom.
Thanks for the info Tom, I will look into that stuff.
