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Intro and "F8" Raider Build Proposal

s11033

Member
Hey guys,

My name is Steve Winegar and I am a mechanical engineering graduate student and a Blackhawk helicopter mechanic in the Army National Guard. I'll be finishing my degree and my military commitment within the next year, and I've decided to (re)start planning my first kit build.

For a bit of background, I am on the list for Peter Muller's Raptor, but assuming all goes well with his project, it will probably be the better part of a decade before my plane gets built. I'm a low-time pilot with only about 150 hours, and think it would be wise for me to gain some experience in building, owning and flying an aircraft before I end up with a baby spaceship in 7 or 10 years.

So keeping in mind that I'm a young guy, am not married yet, don't have kids yet, and expect to have a thoroughbred cross-country airplane a few years down the road, I narrowed down my goals and requirements a bit. First, I want to get my aircraft in the air relatively soon, ideally before I marry my girlfriend and have kids. Second, it has to be relatively inexpensive to build. And third, it has to be fun.

Here's what I started with:
- Budget of $60k-$80k for base build, with room for upgrades down the road
- Build time of no more than 1000 hours of my own time
- Easy to fly for a low-time pilot, but nimble enough for light acro training
- 2 seats
- Fun

I looked at Vans initially, but I ended up putting a deposit down on a Rans S-21, mostly based on the advertised build-time. This was almost two years ago, and delays in production gave me some time to think. In the meantime, I realized that I had overlooked the option of buying a partially completed RV kit. I cancelled my S21 order and the good folks at Rans actually returned my deposit in full.

I looked at Vans again, but almost bought an Azalea Saberwing kit due to its great performance specs with an inexpensive little Corvair conversion. But just before I took the plunge, I realized that I don't want to deal with composites, at least for my first build.

I again came back to Vans, highly interested in the RV8, but I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on it. I did some soul searching and finally realized that the reason I kept drifting away from Vans is that I like to be different than other people. That's a high hurdle, because I realize that "different" and "fast, inexpensive build" rarely go together.

I stumbled on the Team Rocket website and finally found "the one" when I saw Brad Hood's beautiful F1 fuselage with a four-banger, and RV8 wings + empennage. It seems to have the performance specs and handling qualities of the RV8 with the interior space and looks of the F1 Rocket / F4 Raider. I read a comment that said the RV8 parked next to a Rocket/Raider looks like Cindy Crawford sitting next to Kate Upton. I thought that summed it up well. Both are beautiful, but Kate is more my type. The F4/F8 are different enough from the standard RV that I can really fall in love, while also being all-metal and relatively inexpensive.

So, to bring this longwinded story to a close. I'd like to get a sanity check on my project idea. I want to acquire a complete or partially complete RV8 wing and empennage kit. I'll have somebody (if it would meet the 51% requirement, possibly Loyd Remus) help me build the F1 fuselage kit, adapted to fit the RV8 wing root. And then I'll install a basic VFR panel and a mid-time O-360.

In the future I'd like to be able to upgrade to a digital panel, install a 2-axis autopilot, convert the engine to EFII, and paint the plane. (I'd leave it polished initially.) But I think this proposed project would keep me fairly close to my $80k upper bound and meet the other requirements.

I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts.

Also, if anyone has a lead on a completed or partially completed RV8 wing and empennage kit, or a good deal on an O-360 or IO-360 engine, I'd love some pointers! I'm also happy to post a WTB in the classifieds if you guys think that's a good idea.

Thanks in advance,

Steve
 
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Also have a look at the Showplanes RV-8 modifications. Also their cowling. I've seen the canopy frame and that is first class. You get the fastback look in basically a stock RV-8.

An analog panel is definitely possible but it might be worth considering a last-generation used digital system. You'd get an engine monitor that gives a bunch more information than the steam gauges, and if you choose well (for example, a Skyview Classic), you can use it to run your transponder and ADS-B. Plus the autopilot is merely a matter of plunking in some servos. With some care, you'd have the wiring in place for future upgrades.

As for the budget, frankly, I think with tools and this and that, it'll run closer to $100k at the upper end with a constant speed prop. But I might be a little high there. I don't think that $60k is at all possible.

Dave
 
Also have a look at the Showplanes RV-8 modifications. Also their cowling. I've seen the canopy frame and that is first class. You get the fastback look in basically a stock RV-8.

An analog panel is definitely possible but it might be worth considering a last-generation used digital system. You'd get an engine monitor that gives a bunch more information than the steam gauges, and if you choose well (for example, a Skyview Classic), you can use it to run your transponder and ADS-B. Plus the autopilot is merely a matter of plunking in some servos. With some care, you'd have the wiring in place for future upgrades.

As for the budget, frankly, I think with tools and this and that, it'll run closer to $100k at the upper end with a constant speed prop. But I might be a little high there. I don't think that $60k is at all possible.

Dave


I'll definitely look into those options. Aesthetically I do really like the more aggressively angled windshield, the sliding canopy, and the slightly longer nose (and wider fuselage?) of the Rocket. The landing gear also looks really sharp. I haven't sat in either and don't know of any here in the New England area so I don't have first hand experience, but I've read the Rocket feels a lot roomier.

That's really good advice on the panel. I'd definitely love to get digital off the bat if it's not much more expensive. I really haven't given much thought to the panel, but I'm sure there are some good threads on this forum where I can learn a bit more about what is available.

Yeah that $60k number was just for the sake of setting my initial range. If I could get close to $80k that would be great. I think much would depend on getting a good deal on the engine and RV8 kits, as well as working out a competitive budget with whoever helps me with the fuselage.

Thank you!

Steve
 
"...mid time O-360..."
25 years ago before Vans (and modern kitplanes) were as popular as they are today, good mid time engines were plentiful, especially O-320s and O-360s which are popular in 4 place certified planes.

Before the RV-10 came out, a friend told me he could build a Rocket for the same or less than an RV-8 because good mid time IO-540s were plentiful.

Not saying you can't find what you're looking for, but "good" and "mid-time" and "affordable" don't seem to go together these days.

I bought a new IO-320 for my project because I wanted confidence in what I was buying. For your project, seriously consider the benefits of injection over carbs.
 
Steve, I think the Raider would be a good project to start on.

On the Raptor, I wouldn't count on that coming through any time soon or be anywhere near the quoted cost. Be aware there are multiple serious concerns with the design and powerplant/ PSRU. The prototype is around 1000 pounds overweight as well, meaning the projected performance specs won't be attainable.

The Raider will get you experience building and in the air safely.
 
"...mid time O-360..."
25 years ago before Vans (and modern kitplanes) were as popular as they are today, good mid time engines were plentiful, especially O-320s and O-360s which are popular in 4 place certified planes.

Before the RV-10 came out, a friend told me he could build a Rocket for the same or less than an RV-8 because good mid time IO-540s were plentiful.

Not saying you can't find what you're looking for, but "good" and "mid-time" and "affordable" don't seem to go together these days.

I bought a new IO-320 for my project because I wanted confidence in what I was buying. For your project, seriously consider the benefits of injection over carbs.

Thanks for the input. Is there anywhere that's know for offering a good value rebuilt IO-360? This would definitely push me closer to $100k, but might save some trouble in the future. Worst case I can push back getting married and having kids... :D

Steve, I think the Raider would be a good project to start on.

On the Raptor, I wouldn't count on that coming through any time soon or be anywhere near the quoted cost. Be aware there are multiple serious concerns with the design and powerplant/ PSRU. The prototype is around 1000 pounds overweight as well, meaning the projected performance specs won't be attainable.

The Raider will get you experience building and in the air safely.

Yeah, fortunately there would theoretically be 985 of them built before mine comes up for production and my deposit is fully refundable in escrow, so worst case I take my money and build or buy something else!
 
Steve----I had the pleasure of taking a trip in a F4 that Ray Ward built. Nice plane. I'd say for experienced builders only right now.
Suggest you go to Osh and check it out, and talk to Ray, Vince, Blake and everyone involved.
Tom
 
Steve----I had the pleasure of taking a trip in a F4 that Ray Ward built. Nice plane. I'd say for experienced builders only right now.
Suggest you go to Osh and check it out, and talk to Ray, Vince, Blake and everyone involved.
Tom

Unfortunately I can't make it to Osh this year because I have Annual Training for the Guard during those dates.

Can you please give some further info on why only experienced builders? Could I mitigate the issues by hiring someone for assistance with the fuselage? I'd love to hear some more about it. I had a chance to speak to Vince, but not to Ray or Blake.

If it's not feasible for my first build, then maybe I'll have to look into those Showplanes mods.

Steve
 
Can you please give some further info on why only experienced builders? Could I mitigate the issues by hiring someone for assistance with the fuselage? I'd love to hear some more about it. I had a chance to speak to Vince, but not to Ray or Blake.

If it's not feasible for my first build, then maybe I'll have to look into those Showplanes mods.

Steve

The Raider and Rocket kits are not pre-punched, as are the other newer Vans designs. Ray built his very quickly but he is retired, is an old A&P with tons of experience (also built a RV-7 and rebuilt his Luscomb). I don't know what he has in his F-4 Raider but he did mention over 15k just in the prop and another 2k in the spinner.

You can find first run engines and rebuild it yourself with some knowledgeable assistance. Spend the extra money on Lycon upgrades to the engine for increased HP out of a 180 HP plant.

Do what I did: Go for a ride in an -8 and you'll be sold.
 
The F-4 is definitely buildable by a newbie. It'll take more time than a prepunched or quickbuild kit, for sure, but you can do it. See https://www.f1aircraft.com/. The project is basically roughly about as complex as an RV-4, and there are some parts available.

Dave
RV-3B, another of those non-prepunched slow-build kit, now on the fuselage.
 
David---I dont know Steve or his abilities, but Raymo and I do know Ray, and yes he's built quite a few experimentals as well as restored several GA's and warbirds. I still think he has more than 1000 hours in the build and the OP said no more than that. Thats why I said it might not be the plane for him.

But Rays F4 does fly well!

Tom
 
The Raider and Rocket kits are not pre-punched, as are the other newer Vans designs. Ray built his very quickly but he is retired, is an old A&P with tons of experience (also built a RV-7 and rebuilt his Luscomb). I don't know what he has in his F-4 Raider but he did mention over 15k just in the prop and another 2k in the spinner.

You can find first run engines and rebuild it yourself with some knowledgeable assistance. Spend the extra money on Lycon upgrades to the engine for increased HP out of a 180 HP plant.

Do what I did: Go for a ride in an -8 and you'll be sold.

Yeah, I had read about the lack of pre-punched parts, and that's why I was thinking I'd try to enlist the help of someone like Loyd Remus if that still lets me comply with the 51% rule. However, it doesn't sound like many people are suggesting that I go that path. I'd be curious to hear why.

That seems like an awful lot for a prop and spinner! I have a feeling that I could get away with less...

Can you please expand on "first run" engines? Sounds like something I'd be very interested in, but to be honest I've never heard that term before. I'll definitely have a look at Lycon. I've read about them before but haven't checked them out in at least a couple years.

The F-4 is definitely buildable by a newbie. It'll take more time than a prepunched or quickbuild kit, for sure, but you can do it. See https://www.f1aircraft.com/. The project is basically roughly about as complex as an RV-4, and there are some parts available.

Dave
RV-3B, another of those non-prepunched slow-build kit, now on the fuselage.

Happy to hear that!

David---I dont know Steve or his abilities, but Raymo and I do know Ray, and yes he's built quite a few experimentals as well as restored several GA's and warbirds. I still think he has more than 1000 hours in the build and the OP said no more than that. Thats why I said it might not be the plane for him.

But Rays F4 does fly well!

Tom

I don't know if my engineering degree counts for much in terms of actually building something, but I've spent almost 3 years wrenching on Blackhawks in the Army. Granted, I don't do any sheet metal work, but I think that if I found a partially completed RV8 kit and had someone assemble the fuselage for me, I'd probably be in my element for the FWF and finishing kit.

Steve
 
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.... I was thinking I'd try to enlist the help of someone like Loyd Remus if that still lets me comply with the 51% rule. However, it doesn't sound like many people are suggesting that I go that path. I'd be curious to hear why.

The essence of the 51% rule is that 51% of the tasks specified in the NKET checklist (there are about 185 points on that FAA document) have to be completed by amateurs for the purpose of "education and entertainment"... not for commercial purposes, or to make money. You have to attest to that fact when you sign the document for getting the airplane inspected for an airworthiness certificate - under penalty of perjury. That doesn't seem to bother a lot of folks who pay to have airplanes built for them - that's a judgement call you have to make, but if you err on the perjury side, its probably best not to talk about it on the internet...the FAA has LOTS of folks who read VAF (because they are happy RV owners - but why push them?).

So how can you get in trouble with this? If you pay someone else to build too many of the components, then you are outside of the 51% rule. of course, many folks (me included) buy quick build kits with much of the fabrication and assembly complete - including a fuselage (to a rough state). The thing is that the manufacturer has gone over the NKET checklist carefully with the FAA and completed JUST ENOUGH to stay within the rules. What you're suggesting is to "roll your own" quick build, and you can do this legally if you document what you have done on the NKET checklist. Some folks have done this, and licensed their airplane with the FAA's blessing and a clear conscience.

So yeah, a long explanation for a touchy subject - one that you can navigate successfully if you go in knowing the process and looking for a way to do it legally.
 
The essence of the 51% rule is that 51% of the tasks specified in the NKET checklist (there are about 185 points on that FAA document) have to be completed by amateurs for the purpose of "education and entertainment"... not for commercial purposes, or to make money. You have to attest to that fact when you sign the document for getting the airplane inspected for an airworthiness certificate - under penalty of perjury. That doesn't seem to bother a lot of folks who pay to have airplanes built for them - that's a judgement call you have to make, but if you err on the perjury side, its probably best not to talk about it on the internet...the FAA has LOTS of folks who read VAF (because they are happy RV owners - but why push them?).

So how can you get in trouble with this? If you pay someone else to build too many of the components, then you are outside of the 51% rule. of course, many folks (me included) buy quick build kits with much of the fabrication and assembly complete - including a fuselage (to a rough state). The thing is that the manufacturer has gone over the NKET checklist carefully with the FAA and completed JUST ENOUGH to stay within the rules. What you're suggesting is to "roll your own" quick build, and you can do this legally if you document what you have done on the NKET checklist. Some folks have done this, and licensed their airplane with the FAA's blessing and a clear conscience.

So yeah, a long explanation for a touchy subject - one that you can navigate successfully if you go in knowing the process and looking for a way to do it legally.

Hi Paul,

Thanks a lot for your detailed reply. I certainly want to stay within both the letter and the spirit of the law. As you mentioned in your last paragraph, what I really seek to do is obtain a QB kit for this product that doesn't really have one yet. The wings and empennage will be entirely amateur built, whether I acquire the kit from another builder or assemble it all myself. The finishing kit, FWF, panel, and rigging will be done by me as well. All I want to avoid is the tedious task of assembling the non-punched fuselage kit.

Would one of these shops be able to give me guidance on what they can and can't do to stay within the rules? Is there somewhere I can find the checklist? I've found the list of approved kits, but not the individual checklist items.

Thanks again!

Steve
 
51% of the tasks specified in the NKET checklist (there are about 185 points on that FAA document) have to be completed by amateurs

The wings and empennage will be entirely amateur built, whether I acquire the kit from another builder or assemble it all myself. The finishing kit, FWF, panel, and rigging will be done by me as well. All I want to avoid is the tedious task of assembling the non-punched fuselage kit.

Note that the 51% is based on Tasks, and not on total labor or hours.

Kinda strange when you first look at it, but many folks get caught up in thinking the 51% is of the total labor.

Paul is right on, take it to the bank.
 
I noticed no one answered your ?first run? question. This term refers to a used engine that has never been overhauled, e.g., most likely has about 2000 hr or less total time on it, and is therefore a likely candidate for an overhaul with no surprises, e.g., crankshaft re-useable, crankcase re-useable, etc.

Lycon has a reputation of doing excellent work - and their backlog and prices reflect that.
 
Why not consider buying ....

You sound a lot like my younger self (by 35-40 years). If I had $80k to work with, here?s what I wish I had done (in today?s world).
1). Buy a flying RV8 or a 4 if you like the styling better (or even a Rocket if you can find one in your budget)
2). Fly a lot ? learn a lot
3). Get on with the rest of your life ? marry that girl, have those kids
4). In 15-20 years you?ll have (if all goes well):
A great family life
A lot of experience flying and maintaining and modifying and rebuilding a safe, high performance sport plane. Your wrenching skills will come in handy!
5). If you?ve saved aggressively, retire early and build a (30 year newer) dream machine.

Sorry to sound preachy. Building, especially a non-prepunched kit, is a big commitment (for you and the others in your life). Unless you (and they) like building as much (or more) than flying ... buy first. When your family and career are in a position to support your build ? go build that (future) dream machine.

This is advice to *my* younger self. Please ignore if it doesn?t apply to you.

Peter
 
Here’s the FAA job-aid...all 83 pages of it! Sounds long (and it is), but it is very complete and has lots of examples.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/kits/media/am_blt_chklist_job_aid.pdf

Awesome, that’s exactly what I needed. Thank you!

Note that the 51% is based on Tasks, and not on total labor or hours.

Kinda strange when you first look at it, but many folks get caught up in thinking the 51% is of the total labor.

Paul is right on, take it to the bank.

Got it, thanks. I’ll be reviewing the FAA document linked above so I can make sure I really understand what will get me to the 51%.

I noticed no one answered your ‘first run’ question. This term refers to a used engine that has never been overhauled, e.g., most likely has about 2000 hr or less total time on it, and is therefore a likely candidate for an overhaul with no surprises, e.g., crankshaft re-useable, crankcase re-useable, etc.

Lycon has a reputation of doing excellent work - and their backlog and prices reflect that.

Oh wow, that’s opening a whole new can of worms for me. I always assumed that had to be done by a shop. Any idea how much money it can save? I’d much rather be rebuilding an engine than riveting together a fuselage... Is this something one can learn informally, or do I need to attend a class to lean the skills?

You sound a lot like my younger self (by 35-40 years). If I had $80k to work with, here’s what I wish I had done (in today’s world).
1). Buy a flying RV8 or a 4 if you like the styling better (or even a Rocket if you can find one in your budget)
2). Fly a lot — learn a lot
3). Get on with the rest of your life — marry that girl, have those kids
4). In 15-20 years you’ll have (if all goes well):
A great family life
A lot of experience flying and maintaining and modifying and rebuilding a safe, high performance sport plane. Your wrenching skills will come in handy!
5). If you’ve saved aggressively, retire early and build a (30 year newer) dream machine.

Sorry to sound preachy. Building, especially a non-prepunched kit, is a big commitment (for you and the others in your life). Unless you (and they) like building as much (or more) than flying ... buy first. When your family and career are in a position to support your build — go build that (future) dream machine.

This is advice to *my* younger self. Please ignore if it doesn’t apply to you.

Peter

Hey Peter,

Thanks a lot for the personal note. I always appreciate lessons and advice being passed down from people with life experience. I think I’m in a somewhat unique situation because I had a lucrative first job in finance straight out of college. I’ve always lived very frugally and as a result I have the luxury of already owning my “good ‘nuff” little home and “good ‘nuff” used car with no debt hanging over me. My girlfriend is about to start optometry school, which will keep her really busy for the next four years, and we don’t plan to get married until she’s done with her program.

I enlisted in the Guard because I was very moved by a story of personal sacrifice, and I decided that I want to live deliberately and meaningfully. If I learned anything from my time in the military it’s that life is short, and that opportunities to live it will pass you right by without warning.

I guess I also learned that I like wrenching on aircraft at least as much as I like flying them, if not more. I’d rather be on the ground turning a wrench on a Rocket than in the air putting around in a 152.I started my grad degree in engineering because I realized that aviation is my passion, and that I want to make a career of it one way or another. I know that I could happily spend all my “hobby time” building an aircraft. I’m an old soul in a millennial body, and trolling around on social media and binge watching Netflix don’t do it for me the way that getting my hands greasy does.

I think I’m in a very odd and fortunate position, where I just might be able to manage a build if I plan my use of time and money effectively.

Having said all that, I can definitely see how buying an RV4 or similar performance experimental could be a better path... Can I legally tinker and do modifications/repairs on an experimental that I did not assemble myself? For example, could I overhaul an engine myself, as someone above was suggesting?

Thanks,

Steve
 
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You, or anyone, may work on an experimental aircraft as much as you like.
(1) if the work is ?major?, the FAA will require you to test fly for some hours, no passengers, non-urban area, before letting you carry passengers.
(2) You must have an annual ?condition? inspection done. This may be done by anyone with an A&P license, or, one of the original builders who was given a ?limited repairman certificate? by the FISDO.
Doing your own inspections is a nice benefit of building your own airplane.
 
Hey Peter,

Thanks a lot for the personal note. I always appreciate lessons and advice being passed down from people with life experience. I think I?m in a somewhat unique situation because I had a lucrative first job in finance straight out of college. I?ve always lived very frugally and as a result I have the luxury of already owning my ?good ?nuff? little home and ?good ?nuff? used car with no debt hanging over me. My girlfriend is about to start optometry school, which will keep her really busy for the next four years, and we don?t plan to get married until she?s done with her program.

I enlisted in the Guard because I was very moved by a story of personal sacrifice, and I decided that I want to live deliberately and meaningfully. If I learned anything from my time in the military it?s that life is short, and that opportunities to live it will pass you right by without warning.

I guess I also learned that I like wrenching on aircraft at least as much as I like flying them, if not more. I?d rather be on the ground turning a wrench on a Rocket than in the air putting around in a 152.I started my grad degree in engineering because I realized that aviation is my passion, and that I want to make a career of it one way or another. I know that I could happily spend all my ?hobby time? building an aircraft. I?m an old soul in a millennial body, and trolling around on social media and binge watching Netflix don?t do it for me the way that getting my hands greasy does.

I think I?m in a very odd and fortunate position, where I just might be able to manage a build if I plan my use of time and money effectively.

Having said all that, I can definitely see how buying an RV4 or similar performance experimental could be a better path... Can I legally tinker and do modifications/repairs on an experimental that I did not assemble myself? For example, could I overhaul an engine myself, as someone above was suggesting?

Thanks,

Steve


Hi Steve,

I was in more or less the same situation 5 years ago. Finished my studies, no Family/Girlfriend and a very good first Job.

I just pulled the trigger for a RV-8 (QB) and started. Now I am 90% done and I have a Girlfriend I want to marry. I was one year into the build when I met her and she always supported me to build as much as I could. The plan was to finish before marriage and Children but I am not sure if it is going to work out. But would I do it again? Yes absolutely 100%! I love building as much as I love flying (Maybe that changes when I switch from the Champ I fly now to the RV). But it I have a great time building my Dream machine.. And I am 100% sure it won`t be my last plane I build (but first I will marry and have babies)? So if you want to do it - go for it :)


I am 32 and soon be flying my dream plane...
 
Hey Steve-

Welcome to this great site! I just want to throw my experience out as yet another data point. Sounds like you've got your life pretty well figured out at a young age which is awesome!

I purchased my RV7 tail kit 15+ years ago. I knocked that thing about pretty quickly and ordered the QB shortly thereafter. Then... life got in the way. Career, multiple houses, girlfriends, other hobbies etc. My plane moved with me a couple times and took up a bay in my garage getting dusty. I did have a 172 for a while but sold that too.

Last year I was at the point of sell off my project or finish and can happily share that I chose the latter and am getting much closer and should be flying this year (best decision!). I'll end up with an awesome plane, likely much better than I would have had if I had kept building back then.

I guess if I were to do it all over again- I'd tell my younger self to buy a flying one and then build later in life (where I am now). Finances are much better, time is probably the same or slightly worse but priorities are now more focused. I am now mid 40's now so still lots of good RV flying time and probably another RV build in my future too (RV10)

Again, just my experience- either journey you take will be great.

Good luck!
 
Steve----I had the pleasure of taking a trip in a F4 that Ray Ward built... Tom

Tom,

You flew with Ray and it was a PLEASURE??? Surely, not the same Ray Ward that I know?! :D:D:D:D:rolleyes:

Ray is a hoot and has been extraordinarily helpful to us, and to everyone involved. He plans to have his new F4 in our display at Osh this year... just over a week away.

We're in the north display area, about 100' away from Van's, between the warbirds and the brown arch.
 
The Raider and Rocket kits are not pre-punched, as are the other newer Vans designs. Ray built his very quickly but he is retired, is an old A&P with tons of experience (also built a RV-7 and rebuilt his Luscomb). I don't know what he has in his F-4 Raider but he did mention over 15k just in the prop and another 2k in the spinner.

Raymo,

You misunderstood Ray, or there was other confusion. I have the exact price that Ray paid for his NEW Hartzell and spinner and can assure you that $17K mentioned above is WAY, WAY higher than he paid. $10K is much closer to the actual price... NEW with spinner and shipping. Let's not mislead the masses here. Even $10K-ish is bad enough to cause heart palpitations!!!
 
The F-4 is definitely buildable by a newbie. It'll take more time than a prepunched or quickbuild kit, for sure, but you can do it. See https://www.f1aircraft.com/. The project is basically roughly about as complex as an RV-4, and there are some parts available.

Dave
RV-3B, another of those non-prepunched slow-build kit, now on the fuselage.

Indeed, hundreds of noobs built RV-4s, including ME! It's not magic, but it does require that you show up with your brain ready to learn new skills.

We have, or will tell you where to get, everything you need to build one of these machines. Help is only an email or phone call away! Having 2 NEW F1/F4s in the air already attests to the fact that mere mortals can indeed do this.
 
Oh wow, that?s opening a whole new can of worms for me. I always assumed that had to be done by a shop. Any idea how much money it can save? I?d much rather be rebuilding an engine than riveting together a fuselage... Is this something one can learn informally, or do I need to attend a class to lean the skills?


I guess I also learned that I like wrenching on aircraft at least as much as I like flying them, if not more. I?d rather be on the ground turning a wrench on a Rocket than in the air putting around in a 152.I started my grad degree in engineering because I realized that aviation is my passion, and that I want to make a career of it one way or another. I know that I could happily spend all my ?hobby time? building an aircraft. I?m an old soul in a millennial body, and trolling around on social media and binge watching Netflix don?t do it for me the way that getting my hands greasy does.

I think I?m in a very odd and fortunate position, where I just might be able to manage a build if I plan my use of time and money effectively.

Having said all that, I can definitely see how buying an RV4 or similar performance experimental could be a better path... Can I legally tinker and do modifications/repairs on an experimental that I did not assemble myself? For example, could I overhaul an engine myself, as someone above was suggesting?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,

Rebuilding an engine is a snap for someone like you. Disassemble; send everything to Aircraft Specialty Services, Divco, or similar; get it all back with yellow tags; reassemble it; and BOOM.... practically new engine for a LOT less.

I love the building part too. When you gotta build, you gotta build. If you've got the sickness, building is a cherished part of the results. Like having an aluminum baby.

Buy an RV-4.... sheesh... they will ruin you also. My RV-4, which I bought back after 25 years, ruined me and led to a Rocket addiction that appears to be incurable.

One last thought... RV-8s are excellent planes too, but build what you want, what you really want. I tried to build an RV-6 after my first Rocket, but my heart was never in it. So, on to Rocket #2!!! Woo hooo! I get jazzed everytime I look at it.
 
Plenty of debate on the -8 vs Rocket on this site, but there really is no substitute for seat time in both. Suggest you fly a Rocket first though. The -8 is so good that you might just think airplanes can't get any better... But you would be WRONG! Flying an -8 after the Rocket makes this fact glaringly obvious.
 
You, or anyone, may work on an experimental aircraft as much as you like.
(1) if the work is ?major?, the FAA will require you to test fly for some hours, no passengers, non-urban area, before letting you carry passengers.
(2) You must have an annual ?condition? inspection done. This may be done by anyone with an A&P license, or, one of the original builders who was given a ?limited repairman certificate? by the FISDO.
Doing your own inspections is a nice benefit of building your own airplane.

Thank you for the clarification. Sounds doable. I do think I have a serious case of the builder bug...

Hi Steve,

I was in more or less the same situation 5 years ago. Finished my studies, no Family/Girlfriend and a very good first Job.

I just pulled the trigger for a RV-8 (QB) and started. Now I am 90% done and I have a Girlfriend I want to marry. I was one year into the build when I met her and she always supported me to build as much as I could. The plan was to finish before marriage and Children but I am not sure if it is going to work out. But would I do it again? Yes absolutely 100%! I love building as much as I love flying (Maybe that changes when I switch from the Champ I fly now to the RV). But it I have a great time building my Dream machine.. And I am 100% sure it won`t be my last plane I build (but first I will marry and have babies)? So if you want to do it - go for it :)


I am 32 and soon be flying my dream plane...

Sounds like we?re in a similar position! I hope to be in your shoes in the next 2-3 years! I?m seeing an RV8 project for sale beyond the QB stage, and it?s got me thinking...

Hey Steve-

Welcome to this great site! I just want to throw my experience out as yet another data point. Sounds like you've got your life pretty well figured out at a young age which is awesome!

I purchased my RV7 tail kit 15+ years ago. I knocked that thing about pretty quickly and ordered the QB shortly thereafter. Then... life got in the way. Career, multiple houses, girlfriends, other hobbies etc. My plane moved with me a couple times and took up a bay in my garage getting dusty. I did have a 172 for a while but sold that too.

Last year I was at the point of sell off my project or finish and can happily share that I chose the latter and am getting much closer and should be flying this year (best decision!). I'll end up with an awesome plane, likely much better than I would have had if I had kept building back then.

I guess if I were to do it all over again- I'd tell my younger self to buy a flying one and then build later in life (where I am now). Finances are much better, time is probably the same or slightly worse but priorities are now more focused. I am now mid 40's now so still lots of good RV flying time and probably another RV build in my future too (RV10)

Again, just my experience- either journey you take will be great.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot for the advice. I?ll definitely look into flying 4s. I looked at 8s and the majority are beyond my price range.

Tom,

You flew with Ray and it was a PLEASURE??? Surely, not the same Ray Ward that I know?! :D:D:D:D:rolleyes:

Ray is a hoot and has been extraordinarily helpful to us, and to everyone involved. He plans to have his new F4 in our display at Osh this year... just over a week away.

We're in the north display area, about 100' away from Van's, between the warbirds and the brown arch.

Gosh I wish I could be there...
 
Indeed, hundreds of noobs built RV-4s, including ME! It's not magic, but it does require that you show up with your brain ready to learn new skills.

We have, or will tell you where to get, everything you need to build one of these machines. Help is only an email or phone call away! Having 2 NEW F1/F4s in the air already attests to the fact that mere mortals can indeed do this.

Thanks for chiming in Vince. Do you have any ballpark estimates on what it would cost to buy the Rocket fuselage and have someone pre-assemble it to the highest degree that?s legal? I think I?m getting my head around what a partial RV8 kit would cost to mate up to the fuselage.

Steve,

Rebuilding an engine is a snap for someone like you. Disassemble; send everything to Aircraft Specialty Services, Divco, or similar; get it all back with yellow tags; reassemble it; and BOOM.... practically new engine for a LOT less.

I love the building part too. When you gotta build, you gotta build. If you've got the sickness, building is a cherished part of the results. Like having an aluminum baby.

Buy an RV-4.... sheesh... they will ruin you also. My RV-4, which I bought back after 25 years, ruined me and led to a Rocket addiction that appears to be incurable.

One last thought... RV-8s are excellent planes too, but build what you want, what you really want. I tried to build an RV-6 after my first Rocket, but my heart was never in it. So, on to Rocket #2!!! Woo hooo! I get jazzed everytime I look at it.

Sounds like a really cool option. I found an O360 that was disassembled and inspected for $12k. I?m not sure if that?s a good price or not. It looks like it just needs to be reassembled. I may go that route. What kind of paperwork should I look for? What parts need yellow tags and what parts don?t? How hard would it be to install an EFII kit and which ones do people seem to like?

The more I look at the straight and Super 8, the more I like them. But then I look at a Rocket and always feel completely enamored. Do you guys have any plans to offer pre-drilled kits at some point down the line? It seems like it might be an option to finish someone?s 8 project now, and build a Rocket in the future if you guys plan to pre-drill.

Thank you!

Plenty of debate on the -8 vs Rocket on this site, but there really is no substitute for seat time in both. Suggest you fly a Rocket first though. The -8 is so good that you might just think airplanes can't get any better... But you would be WRONG! Flying an -8 after the Rocket makes this fact glaringly obvious.

I really would love to go for a ride in both. Does anybody know of RV8s or Rockets in New England? If only I could make it to Osh...

Also, I did some reading last night on the Super 8s, and that also sounds like it might work for me. They?re different enough, and are a simple modification. And I?m a huge sucker for climb performance... Without much searching I found a mostly completed RV8 kit (beyond QB) for $35k and it seems like a straight 8 or Super 8 might be a much easier build. I could spend that additional time rebuilding an engine, which I think I?d enjoy more and probably learn a lot from.
 
There is more to the 8 vs Rocket debate than performance. They are vastly different ergonomicly. I (and my wife) strongly prefer the Rocket but again, YOU need seat time. Don't make a "paper" decision.
 
In case you did not pick up on it, Mike has both a Rocket and an RV8----so he is well versed to advise about the differences.

There is one more option I have not seen mentioned yet------Super 8. Here is one example. http://mstewart.net/super8/
 
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Be realistic...

You really need to realistic about your build because:

1. It is going to take longer than you think.

2. It is going to cost more than you think

Any "simple mods" you plan on doing, well, however long you think they will take, multiply by 5.


For some data points:

I am building a -10 and my first run IO-540 core was $12.5K. I had the engine built by Barrett and when all was said and done, with Dual EFII, the engine cost $55K.

The 3 Blade MT prop mated to the engine was another $15k.

Let's not talk about the avionics cost...

I am 95% complete and have 2200+ hours invested in the build.

You may find that your engineering degree can get in the way at times, due to trying to overthink things...
 
You really need to realistic about your build because:

1. It is going to take longer than you think.

2. It is going to cost more than you think

Any "simple mods" you plan on doing, well, however long you think they will take, multiply by 5.....


Ah, man, that is so true. All of it.

Dave
 
There is more to the 8 vs Rocket debate than performance. They are vastly different ergonomicly. I (and my wife) strongly prefer the Rocket but again, YOU need seat time. Don't make a "paper" decision.

Thanks a lot for chiming in. It's certainly valuable to hear from someone that owns both. How would I go about looking for owners/builders in my area? If only I could make it to Osh...

In case you did not pick up on it, Mike has both a Rocket and an RV8----so he is well versed to advise about the differences.

There is one more option I have not seen mentioned yet------Super 8. Here is one example. http://mstewart.net/super8/

I hadn't picked up on it, thank you. I think I actually wrote my post saying that I was interested in learning more about the Super 8 at the same time that you were writing your reply. I came across that FAQ page last night. It certainly sounds like a cool route...

You really need to realistic about your build because:

1. It is going to take longer than you think.

2. It is going to cost more than you think

Any "simple mods" you plan on doing, well, however long you think they will take, multiply by 5.


For some data points:

I am building a -10 and my first run IO-540 core was $12.5K. I had the engine built by Barrett and when all was said and done, with Dual EFII, the engine cost $55K.

The 3 Blade MT prop mated to the engine was another $15k.

Let's not talk about the avionics cost...

I am 95% complete and have 2200+ hours invested in the build.

You may find that your engineering degree can get in the way at times, due to trying to overthink things...

Thanks a lot for the advice and the data points. I'll look for deals on both 360s and 540s and see which one I find the best deal on.

Yeah, we have another kid in my unit that does my same job and has the same degree, and he has not concept of "good enough"...

Steve
 
Build what you want, not what others think you should build or what you might think makes more sense to build. Bottom line is it?s a love affair between you and your project and you will be married to it for a long time.
 
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Build what you want, not what others think you should build or what you might think makes more sense to build. Bottom line is it?s a love affair between you and your project and you will be married to it for a long time.

Thank for the advice. I just heard back from Loyd Remus and he said they'd be happy to assist. I'll give him a call tomorrow and see if he can give a ballpark budget for the fuselage build.
 
Guys, what's the best way to get an opinion on whether an engine on eBay is a good deal or not?

If purchasing a disassembled engine, what parts need to be yellow tagged and what parts do not?

Would it be feasible to put an IO540 in an "F8" and fly it within RV8 performance limits? I like the idea of having crazy climb performance and running it real easy on cruise. Seems like used/overhauled IO540s might be more readily available at the moment than O360s.

On another front, how difficult would it be for someone like me to install an SDS EM5 kit assuming I was rebuilding my own engine?

Thanks!
 
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On another front, how difficult would it be for someone like me to install an SDS EM5 kit assuming I was rebuilding my own engine?

Thanks!

If you're wrenching on helicopters, you won't have much problem installing an EM-5 or EM-6. Pretty much a bolt on and some power and ground connections. :)

Maybe a turbo to go along with that to make things interesting... Get 540 performance with a 360.
 
The SDS EFI solution is not an issue. Arguably it's no more complex than a typical FI system, just "different". If you can read Sikorsky tech pubs, you can install SDS EFI.

Also, if you think you can hang a 540 on the nose and think you will be satisfied with the RV-8 cruise speed, try again. 4000 ft/min of climb is fun, but limiting yourself to only 200 knots in cruise gets old real fast. Trust me, I know!
 
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If you're wrenching on helicopters, you won't have much problem installing an EM-5 or EM-6. Pretty much a bolt on and some power and ground connections. :)

Maybe a turbo to go along with that to make things interesting... Get 540 performance with a 360.

I like what I?m hearing!

The SDS EFI solution is not an issue. Arguably it's no more complex than a typical FI system, just "different". If you can read Sikorsky tech pubs, you can install SDS EFI.

Also, if you think you can hang a 540 on the nose and think you will be satisfied with the RV-8 cruise speed, try again. 4000 ft/min of climb is fun, but limiting yourself to only 200 knots in cruise gets old real fast. Trust me, I know!

I completely believe that. Unfortunately I don?t think I think I have the time or money to build a full Rocket. My proposed plan really relies on finding a well advanced RV8 wing and empennage, and hiring some help for the fuselage. I think the ideal outcome would be an F8 with an EFII O-360. I was just wondering about the O-540 because I seem to see a good number of them out there.


Separately, any input on what parts need to be yellow tagged? I assume crank case, driveshaft, camshaft, cylinders, connecting rods and pistons?
 
You might get lucky. A neighbor recently purchased a nicely done HR-2 project that was 99% knocked together (it was even painted) for about $10k, and combined that with a low time 540 from a ground damaged Aztec for $12k. Admittedly, you don't find deals like this advertised, but they do exist.
 
You might get lucky. A neighbor recently purchased a nicely done HR-2 project that was 99% knocked together (it was even painted) for about $10k, and combined that with a low time 540 from a ground damaged Aztec for $12k. Admittedly, you don't find deals like this advertised, but they do exist.

That?s unreal... I don?t feel that I have the level of connections that I?d need to find that kind of deal :(
 
Hey guys,

On the subject of timing my build/purchase, would it make sense for me to wait for what I believe is an impending market crash / recessionary environment? I guess what I’m really asking is whether economic macros affect prices of flying kitplanes, partially completed projects, engines, etc.

If I could just buy a flying rocket, that would be the ideal scenario. But I don’t think I could do that at current market prices. Not sure how much they can be expected to fluctuate with the broader economy.

Thanks!
 
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This is, has been and looks to continue to be a "buyers market". This IS the crash you are looking for. Despite the high end dreamers you see on BS and TaP, Rockets are not mainstream and their "selling" prices reflect that. Squirrel away $100k and you will have a broad selection when the time comes.
 
This is, has been and looks to continue to be a "buyers market". This IS the crash you are looking for. Despite the high end dreamers you see on BS and TaP, Rockets are not mainstream and their "selling" prices reflect that. Squirrel away $100k and you will have a broad selection when the time comes.

Got it, thanks a lot. I haven?t kept up with the market at all.

I?ll have to price that against building a super F8 or a full on F1. I keep coming across cheap IO-540s that make me salivate...

Steve
 
Engines

Don?t limit yourself to the 540 - the 550N can also be used. 310HP out of the box, and very smooth with better fuel specifics.
 
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