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Formation Takeoff

AJPope

Member
Had an eye opening experience I'd like to share. I gave a back seat formation ride to an new squadron member who is building an RV-10. He goes about 270. Obviously it took some more distance and pushing on the stick of my -8 on takeoff but no problem. After a refuel stop, he hopped in my buddy's right seat. Without thinking, I told them to lead the takeoff because I could keep up easily.
Like a good lead, he put on on the 10 knot cross upwind side.
So, as I'm becoming airborne and skipping toward him, his tailwheel is still on the ground.
Okay, lesson learned. Let the lighter aircraft lead! 2 can always ask for power or rejoin after takeoff.
Have fun & be safe!
https://n990bv.smugmug.com/organize/Videos/i-qfWt5ck
 
At the risk of stating the obvious, it seems to me that you should have held the tail up higher, reduced power, and stayed on the ground with the tail up until Lead got airborne.

No need to have the lighter aircraft lead IMHO.
 
Wow that wingtip got close!

Brantel,
I don't want to comment on the video other than to say I don't think wingtip clearance was an issue.

10 kts of crosswind is the maximum recommended for a formation takeoff.

I would most likely have "chickened out" and done an interval takeoff. :)
And I have a nose wheel!

Mark
 
Although counter intuative, tapping the brakes and keeping the power set works well in that situation.

I had to do that a few times because of lead and wingman prop missmatch (and when the ?power band? kicked in)Someone told me to try it and it was the fix i needed.

I would bring the tail up, keep the fixed pitched prop RPM set and just tap as required. Did not use it often but it was way better than pulling power then being sucked on takeoff.

Good luck.
 
Wow, 270 in the back seat of an 8? Or did you mean you were in the back?

I'm at the factory-recommended aft limit with 230 in the back. But my personal limit is 200. It is a different beast with a lot of weight back there.
 
Brantel,
I don't want to comment on the video other than to say I don't think wingtip clearance was an issue.
Mark

To clarify I was referring to the right wingtip and the runway clearance. I am not qualified to comment on the formation TO stuff but from an untrained onlooker, that did not look like something I want to experience....
 
AJ:

We routinely do dissimilar aircraft departures. If the lighter aircraft gets airborne before the lead, just stay in formation. If you ride a little high (which will keep the runway in sight) there'll be no issue with descending onto the landing surface. When the lead gets airborne, assume your normal position.

John
 
Although counter intuative, tapping the brakes and keeping the power set works well in that situation.

I had to do that a few times because of lead and wingman prop missmatch (and when the ?power band? kicked in)Someone told me to try it and it was the fix i needed.

I would bring the tail up, keep the fixed pitched prop RPM set and just tap as required. Did not use it often but it was way better than pulling power then being sucked on takeoff.

Good luck.

It was always drilled into me to never use brakes to maintain position on a formation takeoff. At least in the military power is the solution. It also makes for a smooth transition to the flight phase as you will be evenly matched on power at liftoff. Tapping at high speeds seems like a good way to flat spot tires with limited weight on the main gear.
 
Wow, 270 in the back seat of an 8? Or did you mean you were in the back?

I'm at the factory-recommended aft limit with 230 in the back. But my personal limit is 200. It is a different beast with a lot of weight back there.

I've had 280# in the back seat. Right up against max aft CG. I'm a good sized dude too but the fuel load was low. Threw a case of bottled water in the front baggage area to manage CG and I was right there at max gross as well. :rolleyes:

I have just one thing to say about that. Longitudinal stick feedback reversal is real! Be ready for it and the airplane flies fine, albeit pretty touchy! :D

P.S. I had tested the max gross and aft CG loading during phase 1 so I was familiar with the scenario and knew it would be safe.
 
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So the way I see it you had a safety of flight issue and in the world of formation flying that is a serious. #2 should NEVER pass lead and even more importunely not lose sight of the other aircraft! Formation flying should ALWAYS start and end with a brief, not the one where you say" ill take lead and you take #2", thats how people get dead! Formation flying done right is not EZ done wrong, well we know how that ends.

I have been flying different forms of formation for over 25 years and in till you hook up with a qualified formation group, (RVs, T-34 Association, T-28 Association Redstars ect), you will not see the big picture. The T-34 Association has a free (FKG) (Formation Knowledge Guide) which you can get free on there web site, its a lot of reading but its the standard that ALL formation pilots follow!
Good luck,
Fly safe!
http://www.flyfast.org/sites/all/docs/FAST_FKG_2.0.pdf
 
I believe this formation flight was ill concieved from begining

I believe this formation flight was ill concieved from the start and didn't get better as it proceeded.
There are several reasons this entire flight from briefing if there was a briefing to flight and debriefing if there was one, should not have been flown.
It wasnt skill or planning that prevented a disaster, it was just luck.
 
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Whos leading

Never pass lead unless part of the maneuver being done, ie, a briefed lead change, etc.
For similar aircraft, the heavier, higher stall, lower performing plane should lead. Much easier/safer to fly down the rwy one foot in the air STAYING in position, than try to t/o below stall speed with the power pulled back. If the difference in performance is that big, or more, of a consideration, then do not do a form t/o.

Tapping the brakes on t/o???? immediately after brake release...maybe. At 50+ kts...STUPID IDEA. Can you say blown tire?

"Okay, lesson learned. Let the lighter aircraft lead! 2 can always ask for power or rejoin after takeoff."

Wrong lesson. As several here have pointed out, Stay in position. Don't pass lead. That is what the throttle is for.
 
AJ
Gusty crosswinds at Pine Mountain KPIM can be tricky with the winds blowing over the tree line, especially in a tailwheel RV.
You did the right thing not trying to salvage your wing takeoff.
Thanks for posting.
 
Thanks for the constructive tips guys. I?m at about 50 hours of RV time. To be clear. The flight was briefed for me to fly on the wing for the takeoff.
I should?ve told lead to push it up (if he had anything left)!
When I?m more comfortable, I?ll be able to take it airborne and stay in position. Getting light in ground effect and taking a couple small skips toward lead was what made me take the safe course of action up and away from the formation.
 
Whoa. That was... ugly. I don't mean to pile on and criticize, but you probably shouldn't be doing that with only 50 hrs of RV time. Your basic controllability just looked sloppy and you had too much back and forth with your head. Learn to fly that thing and fly it well, then ease into this stuff. Eyes on lead, hand on throttle (no brakes!), and use it.

We routinely do dissimilar aircraft departures. If the lighter aircraft gets airborne before the lead, just stay in formation. If you ride a little high (which will keep the runway in sight) there'll be no issue with descending onto the landing surface. When the lead gets airborne, assume your normal position.

Yep! I've done numerous takeoffs like that in a AT-6 flying wing on a T-28A; the small engine T-28 is a lead sled with a long takeoff roll. The T-6, while it has less power, it's ready to fly much sooner... so I just ease the power back, lift off and maintain position while raising the gear. Once the -28 is airborne with gear coming up he starts to accelerate (finally!), then I power back up and hold position. Fun stuff...
 
New to the RV, mainly mil background, almost never flew with less than a two ship. Why no brakes at 50 kts? I realize the potential to mash on the brakes and blow tires. The faster you are the more friction you can make and quick to blow tires. But wouldn’t a small application be ok? It would/should result in a binary type correction, as in an instant reduction in speed (and position). Power will almost always require at least a two point correction (though prop more responsive than jet). I am not suggesting I taught folks to use brakes in the day, but have used them in similar cases in jets.
 
50 knots in a jet is just starting to get some aerodynamic force. 50 knots in an RV is rotation speed. Big difference on the effects of brake application.
 
Formation flying is a learned skill as is getting you instrument ticket or any other flying upgrade. I see guys doing formation flying that is downright dangerous! Im not trying to be mean or takeaway your ability as a pilot but there is a right and a wrong way to learn, you wouldn't get your IFR rating by flying in the clouds yourself for the first time, would you? When we start with new formation guys they always have a back seater (a qualified back seater) until he or she has all the basic fundamentals and can understand many of the "what ifs". We require the understanding of hand signals, and an understanding of the (T-34 FKG, Please read. I have seen to many
accidents and we don't need anymore!
 
New to the RV, mainly mil background, almost never flew with less than a two ship. Why no brakes at 50 kts? I realize the potential to mash on the brakes and blow tires. The faster you are the more friction you can make and quick to blow tires. But wouldn?t a small application be ok? It would/should result in a binary type correction, as in an instant reduction in speed (and position). Power will almost always require at least a two point correction (though prop more responsive than jet). I am not suggesting I taught folks to use brakes in the day, but have used them in similar cases in jets.

Yea, agreed- So this brake tap stuff in an RV is all about a very experienced (fixed pitch prop only) formation pilot that just taps the brakes somewhere between 10 to 35kts in the takeoff run. This is because of the fixed pitch power acceleration of the prop. tapping the brakes is an advanced technique to stop forward acceleration and not have to pull throttle-> that will pull the prop/power rpm out of a fixed pitch prop. "tapping the brakes" is not close to flat spotting a tire. If you're on the mains and getting light- need to watch it even if you want to use this technique. I would use a quick power Out-in at that point, -Again- highly experienced formation pilots only- Please understand that a constant speed prop pilot can totally disregard this conversation.:D
 
Misleading Title

I would not call that a formation takeoff..

2 planes on the same runway at the same time... but not a formation take off.

Get some formal training and be careful out there.
 
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