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RV-8 Specific Transition Training

diaretical

I'm New Here
Long time lurker here with my first post after years of pouring through the forums. Just wanted to take a moment after completing transition training with Bruce Bohannon down in Angleton, TX - it was worth every cent!

Despite being an LC-130 military pilot and having over 550 total hours in everything from the T-6 Texan II, T-1, C-130, and LC-130 skibird, I was still challenged in the RV-8. Bruce was an incredible instructor and didn?t sugarcoat anything. He?s your old school instructor type that tells you what you?re doing wrong and he won?t fill your head with feel good compliments (until you earn them).

Anyone thinking that they can just buy an RV-8 and take it flying just because you?ve flown an aerobatic T-6 II at UPT with the Air Force - you?re wrong. Don?t do it. Trust me. I almost scared myself out of buying an RV-8 during the first 3 flights. After about 10 hours, I felt confident and comfortable with landings, cross countries, and light crosswinds. I plan on slowly and cautiously expanding my envelope of acceptable crosswinds. Just because you can land a C-130 in 20+ knot gusty crosswinds doesn?t mean you can do it in an RV-8 (yet ☺️).

Cheers and happy flying everyone!
-Dia
 
I noticed you said that DESPITE of all of those planes you mentioned and at 550 hours (you've still have lots of experience to gain in your future to look forward to). Those previous hours will help in other areas but all of those are nosedraggers so they really didn't help you. I have over 4400 hours total but only 125 in tailwheel (and that was over 20 years ago). I felt like I wouldn't kill myself landing in about 3 (front seat) hours but I still went out and flew with another CFI to get another take on the landings and I'm glad I did. Now that I'm flying it alone I'm getting a lot more comfortable.

I suggest you also go with another CFI to see their way of teaching and their perspective. Nothing against Bohanan but I'm a CFI and say this because I've seen and lived it many times myself.

Another thing I suggest is that aspiring RV-8 pilots DON'T get training in a side by side RV first or get training in the RV-8 rear seat first. It DOES NOT translate to the front seat, the sight picture is completely off. Instead, if you can't do it in your RV-8, get some training in any other tandem that they'll let you fly in the front seat, for example a Citabria or a Decathlon, but not a Pitts.

The view of the RV-8 in the front seat is great and you can see completely over the cowling, something you can't do in lots of taildraggers.
 
I agree wholeheartedly, except there?s not a whole lot of RV-8s with dual controls and CFIs out there. Point me towards one and I?ll happily invest the time and money to get some more dual instruction. Until then, I?ll be cautiously flying on light wind days to practice landings. I?ve been digesting everything I can find in the forums regarding wheel vs point landings and it?s interesting to see how varied the opinions are. Bruce teaches 3-point landings and swears by them.

BTW, what are your thoughts on the engine heater? I plan on flying during some of the colder months in upstate NY and it sounds like a worthwhile investment.
 
Another thing I suggest is that aspiring RV-8 pilots DON'T get training in a side by side RV first or get training in the RV-8 rear seat first. It DOES NOT translate to the front seat, the sight picture is completely off.

I disagree, tons of RV-8 pilots have checked out in a side-by-side RV. The well-known RV transition instructors would confirm the success rate in using a 6 or 7 for any RV checkout. You must understand that most pilots who need an RV-8 checkout already have tailwheel experience and just need to get generally acquainted with the flying characteristics of the RV and satisfy insurance requirements. The side by sides do that just fine. Worked for me years back. Tailwheel RVs are incredibly easy to handle and adapt to. It seems the RV community sometimes gets a bit trapped inside their own bubble and loses perspective on how easy these airplanes really are. And as noted, transition training in an RV-8 is generally impractical.
 
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This post is not meant to discredit the original poster in anyway. I am just posting this because this is the sort of thing that may deter someone from buying an rv 8 kit.

The rv 8 is an honest airplane. The margins for error are much smaller than any nose wheel airplane, but if you have experiance in tail wheel aircraft and you can confidently fly them with no hesitation or doubt, you wont have any issues with an rv 8. Just keep the wheels straight (longitudinal axis aligned with ground track), just like you are supposed to with any other airplane and it wont ever be a problem.

Large transport airplanes with nose wheels are a much different type of flying. If that's what all your time is in then you need to go fly little airplanes with little wheels in the back with someone that knows how to fly them until you are comfortable and proficient.

3 rules of tail wheel: keep it straight, keep it straight and keep it straight.
 
This post is not meant to discredit the original poster in anyway. I am just posting this because this is the sort of thing that may deter someone from buying an rv 8 kit.

The rv 8 is an honest airplane. The margins for error are much smaller than any nose wheel airplane, but if you have experiance in tail wheel aircraft and you can confidently fly them with no hesitation or doubt, you wont have any issues with an rv 8. Just keep the wheels straight (longitudinal axis aligned with ground track), just like you are supposed to with any other airplane and it wont ever be a problem.

Large transport airplanes with nose wheels are a much different type of flying. If that's what all your time is in then you need to go fly little airplanes with little wheels in the back with someone that knows how to fly them until you are comfortable and proficient.

3 rules of tail wheel: keep it straight, keep it straight and keep it straight.

Totally agree, and you could substitute RV-8 with J-3 Cub here for the same effect. A Cub at my airport was ground looped by two different military transport pilots. Different worlds.
 
I disagree, tons of RV-8 pilots have checked out in a side-by-side RV. The well-known RV transition instructors would confirm the success rate in using a 6 or 7 for any RV checkout. You must understand that most pilots who need an RV-8 checkout already have tailwheel experience and just need to get generally acquainted with the flying characteristics of the RV and satisfy insurance requirements. The side by sides do that just fine. Worked for me years back. Tailwheel RVs are incredibly easy to handle and adapt to. It seems the RV community sometimes gets a bit trapped inside their own bubble and loses perspective on how easy these airplanes really are. And as noted, transition training in an RV-8 is generally impractical.

Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's the best way. You can drive cross country in a '69 Volkswagen Beetle but you'll be better off in a modern car. Is training in a side-by-side RV better than nothing, of course. Is it better than doing it in an RV-8, NOT EVEN CLOSE.
 
I agree wholeheartedly, except there’s not a whole lot of RV-8s with dual controls and CFIs out there. Point me towards one and I’ll happily invest the time and money to get some more dual instruction. Until then, I’ll be cautiously flying on light wind days to practice landings. I’ve been digesting everything I can find in the forums regarding wheel vs point landings and it’s interesting to see how varied the opinions are. Bruce teaches 3-point landings and swears by them.

BTW, what are your thoughts on the engine heater? I plan on flying during some of the colder months in upstate NY and it sounds like a worthwhile investment.

Without counting my RV-8 and me as a CFI there's two more of them in North Texas and another one in Houston. As soon as I have some time in mine and feel comfortable I'll be doing it in mine. I already have about 6 hours in the back. All the -8s I've seen up to now have dual controls like mine.

Regarding the engine heater I was just reading a recent thread on this forum with lots of opinions and some made a lot of sense:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=170710

I have the one that heats the oil pan and also the cylinders. Gets the entire engine warm so you aren't just circulating warm oil on cold parts. It doesn't get below 32 many days here but if I were going to be flying in New York I'd get one of those propane blowers that circulate hot air around the engine, I think it would work faster than leaving one like mine on overnight, but I've never needed one like that so I suggest you get opinions from others on that one.
 
Is training in a side-by-side RV better than nothing, of course. Is it better than doing it in an RV-8, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

This is your opinion, and one inconsistent with how successful the 6 and 7 have been at training all RV pilots. You're inventing a problem that doesn't exist. If you can train in an 8 with dual controls great, if not, then a 6 or 7 works perfectly fine too. The track record proves this. The 6 and 7 are more accessible. You're making a mountain out of slight variations when the reality is that any tailwheel pilot who has significant experience in multiple a/c types can easily fly an RV-8 with no transition training. If your tailwheel time consists of just the endorsement in a Citabria, of course get an RV checkout...ANY RV checkout.
 
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I don’t say training in the -7 isn’t good but there are better ways like using the -8.

Yes, training in a -6 or -7 has worked for along time when -8s with dual controls were hard to come by, and back when horses were transportation they also worked and people went from coast to coast on them, but then something better was invented, cars.

So if you want a good way to train use the -7. If you want a better way then use a -8. So many laws of learning back me up starting with the law of primacy.
 
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Please, you are very new to RVs. Maybe listen and learn first ... and pontificate less.

You don?t have to have years in RVs to know the laws of learning. I?m new to RVs but definitely not new to aviation or how to teach and this has to do with teaching more than with RVs.
 
Without counting my RV-8 and me as a CFI there's two more of them in North Texas and another one in Houston. As soon as I have some time in mine and feel comfortable I'll be doing it in mine. I already have about 6 hours in the back. All the -8s I've seen up to now have dual controls like mine.

Have you talked to your insurance agent about this?
 
I understand Bruce?s RV-8 has brake pedals for the pilot in back. This makes it much more suitable for transition training than most other RV-8?s.

Ive only ever heard good experiences from those who?ve trained with him.

http://www.vansairforce.net/transition_training.htm


Bruce Bohannon. flyalegend 'at' gmail.com. 281.889.8078
2720 County Rod 49. Angleton, TX

VAF_67%20Jul.%2018%2014.04.jpg
 
I understand Bruce?s RV-8 has brake pedals for the pilot in back. This makes it much more suitable for transition training than most other RV-8?s

Do you use your brakes when taking off or landing? My runway is 2500? and has a 50? powerline across the approach and I don?t use all of the runway and never use brakes.
 
Yeah, kinda what I was thinking. Kids these days...

IMHO, flying right seat in a RV-6/7 to transition to an RV-8 works great, lasts a long time. Hundreds of guys have done it, it just isn?t that big of a deal.
 
I guess this will never end until I tell you guys YOU'RE ALL CORRECT. There, maybe now you'll be happy.

One thing I know in my decades teaching is that you modify your instruction to your audience. Hard to do that here when some people don't have anything in their profiles. I could be talking with a PPSEL or I could be talking with an astronaut so I'll just let you all stay with your "because it's always been done that way" mentality.
 
I guess this will never end until I tell you guys YOU'RE ALL CORRECT. There, maybe now you'll be happy.

One thing I know in my decades teaching is that you modify your instruction to your audience. Hard to do that here when some people don't have anything in their profiles. I could be talking with a PPSEL or I could be talking with an astronaut so I'll just let you all stay with your "because it's always been done that way" mentality.
Great! Perhaps when your start instructing in your -8 you?ll ask about the background of the student before you get started instead of pontificating and painting with too broad of a brush.

Just FYI, here?s where you lost some of us with your posting methods;
Another thing I suggest is that aspiring RV-8 pilots DON'T get training in a side by side RV first or get training in the RV-8 rear seat first. It DOES NOT translate to the front seat, the sight picture is completely off.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's the best way. You can drive cross country in a '69 Volkswagen Beetle but you'll be better off in a modern car. Is training in a side-by-side RV better than nothing, of course. Is it better than doing it in an RV-8, NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Shouting your opinion in all CAPS does not necessarily make it so. This is your opinion, and that?s fine, everybody has one. But, to come in here as a somewhat low time guy being so adamant that the tried and true method of flying a -6/7 to transition to an -8 (which works really well BTW) is WRONG!... well, you?re not making friends with that approach. Sorry.
 
Great! Perhaps when your start instructing in your -8 you’ll ask about the background of the student before you get started instead of pontificating and painting with too broad of a brush.

Just FYI, here’s where you lost some of us with your posting methods;


Shouting your opinion in all CAPS does not necessarily make it so. This is your opinion, and that’s fine, everybody has one. But, to come in here as a somewhat low time guy being so adamant that the tried and true method of flying a -6/7 to transition to an -8 (which works really well BTW) is WRONG!... well, you’re not making friends with that approach. Sorry.

Of course when I have a student I'll adjust my instruction to his experience. I've always done that. On the flip side you're doing such a great job assuming I'm a low time guy (when in fact it's far from the truth) however I can't know what experience you have so I'm going to chalk up your comments to just wanting to be uninformed.

You lost me when you decided, since you didn't have a reason to disprove my comment, that it was easier to attack me personally in the way I write the fonts of my words instead of giving a reason why my comment was not correct.

Yep, I've never found the need to have my post count high as it might give the impression that someone with lots of posts might know more than someone with less posts, but that doesn't hold true all the time. My original comment was not to make friends, it was to help others see a better way of doing something, in my opinion which is based on decades of teaching. Your opinion is based on "it's always been done like that". Well transportation by horses still works and has always been done but nowadays there are cars and planes making it a better way to transport yourself. Some things can be done in better ways.

I don't feel the need to attack others when my opinion is different but I see that if we're not cheerleaders to those who've been clicking away at a forum for a longer time we can't have an opinion or give advice, unless it's the same advice as theirs. Pot, kettle.... I'm out, I offered what I wanted to offer and decided not to spend more time on this subject.
 
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For my RV-8 training way back, when there were really no RV-8s set up for back seat, I went to the RV-6 with constant speed etc, and few from the right seat. Was very comfortable after 5 hours, and my 8 flew just perfectly, when I did just as my instructor told me. He did have a good deal of RV-8 time, so advice counted!

cheers
 
Bruce is an outstanding instructor, I’d send my kids to him. He has an amazing ability to teach and understand what is actually happening with airplanes; not what someone else has told him what he has actually observed (and amazingly his interpretation matches the aero text books and theory I’ve read; but explained in a manner anyone can understand). He also had an amazing ability to sense accelerations, he literally can fly by the seat of his pants. He can sense an out of trim, side force, lateral acceleration, etc. well before the average pilot (even the above average pilot, I have flown with a few of those). I am not saying there is no one else capable or there might even be someone better; but I wouldn’t go anywhere else. I agree different perspectives are great when you don’t have the answers and your guessing; when you find someone with all the answers replicate him. I have instructed some, had many instructors, flown a few different airplanes (not many tail wheel), and Bruce is it based on what I have seen; just my two cents.

Also, you couldn’t pay me enough to get in the back seat of an 8 with a minimal time tail wheel student if the rear seat didn’t have brakes. But I am older now and perhaps take less risk than I did when I was younger.

My review below
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=165770
 
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Before flying my 8 for the first time, I did the majority of my tailwheel training in a Super Decathlon. Between 4-5 hours. I also got about 2 hours in a RV6. I thought that prepared me pretty well for the 8. I also think that this is dependent on your overall experience level, self confidence in your abilities as a pilot, and knowing your limitations. Certainly, training in a 8 would be ideal, it?s just not always practical. YMMV.
 
Thanks guys for getting this thread back on track to a conversational tone. The experience level of the average lurker or one paragraph poster here is far more impressive than most Internet forums. I think we can keep it this way. I?m in the process of transitioning into an 8 and look forward to honing my 8 skill set, I greatly appreciate the generosity and patience of the long time RV perspectives!
 
I spent 10 hours with Mike Seager in his RV-7 before I flew my RV-8.. Worth every penny..

One thing he definitely impressed upon me though, was the time in the 7 gave me the skills to go LEARN the RV-8.. He made it very clear it didn't teach me to fly the 8.

I've got probably 20 hours in my 8 now due to being deployed a lot.. and every landing is different and interesting in its own way. I'm still not 'comfortable' but I definitely feel like I'm not getting myself into too much trouble.. but about 1 in 4 landings is something I'm happy with..
 
When I bought my RV-8, I had never flown tailwheel. I got my TW endorsement in a Citabria, then my RV transition training in an RV-7. Neither was enough for me; my first three landings in my 8 were terrible and terrifying. I seriously considered selling the plane.

But then a CFI friend of mine intervened and told me he could straighten me out, so I flew about 10 hours with him in an Xtreme Decathlon, practicing every imaginable landing scenario. It was exactly the instruction I needed, as I haven't had a bad landing in my 8 since.
 
Long time lurker here with my first post after years of pouring through the forums. Just wanted to take a moment after completing transition training with Bruce Bohannon down in Angleton, TX - it was worth every cent!

Despite being an LC-130 military pilot and having over 550 total hours in everything from the T-6 Texan II, T-1, C-130, and LC-130 skibird, I was still challenged in the RV-8. Bruce was an incredible instructor and didn?t sugarcoat anything. He?s your old school instructor type that tells you what you?re doing wrong and he won?t fill your head with feel good compliments (until you earn them).

Anyone thinking that they can just buy an RV-8 and take it flying just because you?ve flown an aerobatic T-6 II at UPT with the Air Force - you?re wrong. Don?t do it. Trust me. I almost scared myself out of buying an RV-8 during the first 3 flights. After about 10 hours, I felt confident and comfortable with landings, cross countries, and light crosswinds. I plan on slowly and cautiously expanding my envelope of acceptable crosswinds. Just because you can land a C-130 in 20+ knot gusty crosswinds doesn?t mean you can do it in an RV-8 (yet ☺️).

Cheers and happy flying everyone!
-Dia


Dia,

Welcome to the ?ship? and couldn?t agree more with your writeup on tailwheel training. I got mine with Alex D back in the day, starting with zero TW time, and after an hour or so pretty much had a handle on it. As you said, it?s not difficult, just a skill set that needs to be learned in a controlled environment.

When I flew a Cub later, after having flown an RV-6 for several years, I was shocked at just how different the TW experience in that aircraft ended up being. In some ways, when landing on asphalt, the Cub is harder than the RV.

Again, welcome to VAF and I how you enjoy many decades of fun RV enjoyment!

v/r,dr
 
Doug - thanks for the warm welcome! I’ve been reading your posts on the forums for years now and I’m very appreciative of your wisdom and guidance on all kinds of topics.

Before flying Bruce Bohannon’s RV-8, I went flying in an RV-7A and did a couple landings that were pretty benign. It was an enjoyable plane that was fairly straightforward to land for someone with only nosewheel experience. I thought I wanted an RV-7A for years, until I flew one and realized I didn’t enjoy being scrunched up side by side with another person trying not to invade their personal space with my 5’11, 210lb frame. Overnight, I changed my mind and decided to only look for RV-8s after that, and I couldn’t be happier!

As someone with zero tailwheel experience, the 3.4 hours I spent with Bruce in his Legend Cub, and the 10 hours I spent in his RV-8 were incredibly useful in regards to building confidence and feeling comfortable in the plane. Other people with more tailwheel time showed up during the week I spent at Bruce’s place and they knocked out their transition training in a couple hours. Bruce will let you know when he thinks you’re ready. He was honest with me and I took his advice and stayed for the full ten hours, which my insurance required anyway.

As a kid who grew up in Brooklyn building model airplanes and dreaming of flying, it was a pleasure to escape the concrete jungle and spend a week on Bruce’s grass strip airport in Texas. It felt like a time capsule of the golden days of aviation where all your buddies had a barn and a plane and everyone took their planes out for a spin. My only regret is not going out there sooner.

Looking forward to being a part of this amazing community for many years.
Dia
 
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The RV8 is a pussycat, don't understand that it has a boogie-man tag attached to it?

It can have a little of a Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde to it. Try to land it with too much speed to bring out Mr. Hyde. I am now turning final with no more than 80 KIAS and crossing the numbers less than 75 KIAS. That's probably even a little fast, but it works for now. There's no give in that landing gear and if you drop it in even a little with just a tad too much speed, you're off to the races. Just my observation!
 
I wonder how much of the different opinions on landing characteristics of same type RV?s comes from improper gear geometry in the setup. I was told by several people how difficult a F1 Rocket could be to land but so far found it quite docile. Having said that my experience is extremely limited because I have self imposed a very tight crosswind limit until I get mores hours in the aircraft. My off days have not lined up with easy wind days.
 
Opinions always vary regarding "difficulty". I'm not going there. There are two tech items which will make your -8 (any RV really) more friendly on roll out, after the tail is on the ground.

(1) At the rudder horn, move the rudder cable/chain/link pivot point inboard.

The effect is to reduce the ratio between rudder and tailwheel. With less deflection for the same rudder deflection, the tailwheel steering slows.

(2) Minimize the perpendicular lateral distance between the axis line of the tailwheel spring and the contact patch of the tire. In general, don't mount a tall tailwheel assembly.

The round tapered rod is a spring. Although we naturally recognize that it bends up and down, not everyone realizes it is also a torsional spring...it twists when force is applied at the tire contact patch. The lateral distance between the extended centerline of the spring and the contact patch is an arm. Shorter arm, less twist for the same force. Tailwheel steering is less twitchy.

Yes, the -8 legs are a little stiff. There is a standard technique to kill the little hop you might get if the touchdown wasn't spot on. I don't know how many transition instructors teach it. Works with any tailwheel aircraft.

To kill the hop every time, drop a wing immediately after the initial skip, before the next runway contact. The goal is to touch down on one main, just as you would in a crosswind. The excess vertical energy is transferred to the roll axis and dissipated into the high wing, which is still flying, rather than feeding into the pitch axis, which is what happens if your second runway contact is on both mains. The high wheel will shortly follow the low wheel and stay put.

Example here, starting at 7:00. Watch the little skip at 7:06 followed by a left wing drop.

https://youtu.be/ixcYBkXbAAw

A lot of instructors teach pilots to "stick" the landing with forward stick...then they try it off a bounce. You'll find the wing drop method more effective, and it doesn't eat props.
 
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I wonder how much of the different opinions on landing characteristics of same type RV?s comes from improper gear geometry in the setup. I was told by several people how difficult a F1 Rocket could be to land but so far found it quite docile. Having said that my experience is extremely limited because I have self imposed a very tight crosswind limit until I get mores hours in the aircraft. My off days have not lined up with easy wind days.

Jim worked very hard to get the geometry perfect when he built the airplane. Shortening the gear, cutting the axle pads, using bags of salt on the wings to simulate flying weights, etc. My F1 has an exact copy of his geometry.
 
Opinions always vary regarding "difficulty". I'm not going there. There are two tech items which will make your -8 (any RV really) more friendly on roll out, after the tail is on the ground.

(1) At the rudder horn, move the rudder cable/chain/link pivot point inboard.

The effect is to reduce the ratio between rudder and tailwheel. With less deflection for the same rudder deflection, the tailwheel steering slows.

(2) Minimize the perpendicular lateral distance between the axis line of the tailwheel spring and the contact patch of the tire. In general, don't mount a tall tailwheel assembly.

The round tapered rod is a spring. Although we naturally recognize that it bends up and down, not everyone realizes it is also a torsional spring...it twists when force is applied at the tire contact patch. The lateral distance between the extended centerline of the spring and the contact patch is an arm. Shorter arm, less twist for the same force. Tailwheel steering is less twitchy.

Yes, the -8 legs are a little stiff. There is a standard technique to kill the little hop you might get if the touchdown wasn't spot on. I don't know how many transition instructors teach it. Works with any tailwheel aircraft.

To kill the hop every time, drop a wing immediately after the initial skip, before the next runway contact. The goal is to touch down on one main, just as you would in a crosswind. The excess vertical energy is transferred to the roll axis and dissipated into the high wing, which is still flying, rather than feeding into the pitch axis, which is what happens if your second runway contact is on both mains. The high wheel will shortly follow the low wheel and stay put.

Example here, starting at 7:00. Watch the little skip at 7:06 followed by a left wing drop.

https://youtu.be/ixcYBkXbAAw

A lot of instructors teach pilots to "stick" the landing with forward stick...then they try it off a bounce. You'll find the wing drop method more effective, and it doesn't eat props.


Yeah.. I'm finding my biggest problem on landing is when I bring the tail down and it's not straight. I like your idea of moving the chains inboard at the rudder.

Interesting technique on the skip too.. Up until now I've just been riding out the skip.. It hasn't gotten crazy, but I'll definitely give your technique a try!
 
Jim worked very hard to get the geometry perfect when he built the airplane. Shortening the gear, cutting the axle pads, using bags of salt on the wings to simulate flying weights, etc. My F1 has an exact copy of his geometry.

I hope I get a chance to fly it a bit more this coming weekend. I know Jim put his heart and soul into the aircraft. I read a post somewhere that I believe was from you Bob about the care he put into getting the geometry perfect. I need all the help I can get so that was a big part in the purchase decision!
 
App speed should be to suit the conditions. Basically find out yr actual stall speed (it does vary slightly) and X 1.3. Full flap I App at 75 kts with 70 kts over the keys touching down around 60-65kts trimmed slightly nose heavy on the mains tail low,works for me every time and Farley bounce:)
 
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