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Fuel Pressure Slowly Decreasing in High Alt Cruise

cactusman

Well Known Member
Flew from KIWA to AZ82 yesterday and flight was normal.

On the way back, noticed fuel pressure in cruise after 10-15 minutes level off starting to decline...got as low as 2.2...got a couple of warnings...seemed to stabilize at 2.6-2.7 at 4900 RPM at 10500. Would decline if I increased RPM. Engine never missed a beat - all other indications were green.

Newer fuel pump, aux pump not on switch and was running when I shut down.

Winter premium gas - I departed up north with about 14 gals at 8100' DA - the run up and takeoff all had the usual 5.5 PSI showing. It was pretty warm yesterday.

By the time I landed in the valley, it was showing a more normal 3-4 PSI

I'm thinking the winter gas and higher altitudes maybe caused some vapor issues and filled it up with 100LL.
 
Flew from KIWA to AZ82 yesterday and flight was normal.

On the way back, noticed fuel pressure in cruise after 10-15 minutes level off starting to decline...got as low as 2.2...got a couple of warnings...seemed to stabilize at 2.6-2.7 at 4900 RPM at 10500. Would decline if I increased RPM. Engine never missed a beat - all other indications were green.

Newer fuel pump, aux pump not on switch and was running when I shut down.

Winter premium gas - I departed up north with about 14 gals at 8100' DA - the run up and takeoff all had the usual 5.5 PSI showing. It was pretty warm yesterday.

By the time I landed in the valley, it was showing a more normal 3-4 PSI

I'm thinking the winter gas and higher altitudes maybe caused some vapor issues and filled it up with 100LL.

I'm thinking, your thinking is a good possibility.
 
Similar observations...

I seem to see this same fuel pressure behavior in both the spring and in the fall. On this past weekend when descending from altitude (8,500 over NYC) the pressure began to fall in the yellow range. Never into the red this time but last fall it did once or twice. No issues over the winter or during summer flying if I recall. Assume with the warmer weather and with local premium gas still mixed with winter blends, that is causing these temporary low readings this time of year. Usually clears up after several "long" minutes. Engine etc... all operate normally. Just really don't like anything on my engine monitoring page to show up yellow.
 
Fuel and fuel pressure problems

Hi Guys,

During the early 25 hour phase of flight time (Early summer so 35-40Deg ambient temps) i also experienced low fuel pressure alarms at higher altitudes but mainly with the electric pump off, (Yes i have a fuel pump switch and glad i have) so I turned the electric pump back on and accepted it would most possibly be vapour lock caused by high temps and altitude.

After a PM exchange with wingedfrog he suggested it may be a good idea to share my experiences on the forum also.

I raised the following questions with him.
I am not concluding my experience and remedy below will necessarily address other peoples issues, just sharing my findings and experiences for other to consider.

- Are you sure the mechanical pump failed?
- How did you confirm it had failed?
- What fuel brand and Octane rating are you using?
- Have you tried to run the engine again with the same fuel pump in a lower ambient temperature?
- Have you drained and refilled the fuel tank with fresh fuel?

The reason for my list of questions is i have experienced the same symptoms as your self, only i was off the ground in climb out off a short strip without enough room to land again on the remaining strip or suitable landing options or sufficient height to turn back both times, before i identified and remedied the problem!

The remedy was to add a minimum of 30% avgas to the fuel tank in hot weather.

Both times ambient temperature was over 35deg C airfield elevation 1,460' (electric pump on)
First sign of a problem was a strong fuel odour immediately followed by partial loss of power and low fuel press alarm. My reaction was to first turn off electric fuel pump,(Because of the strong fuel odour and fear of fire) the engine regained power then started to loose power again along with low fuel pressure warning, so it was electric fuel pump on and off to keep the engine running without flooding to level off get some increased airflow to cool engine bay and get some landing options. Next morning and days following in the cooler temperatures, i could not get the problem to reoccur. Another hot day weeks later a repeat of the same problems occurred. (during the flight prior, i noticed fuel pressure fluctuations with the electric pump off and to a much lesser degree with the electric pump on)
i had landed for a short break with engine shut down, then restarted and departed for the home field when the partial power loss occurred.

My local and only service station in the town was having difficulty with their 95 Octane fuel pump, we could only get fuel early in the morning when the temperatures were cooler. (I only realised the significance of this after the problems occurred)
I suspect they were still selling winter fuel, now in the summer due to low fuel volume sales turnover.

After the first power loss i dismantle the Carburettors looking for problems as to why i got the fuel smell, bowles were clean, floats weighed in correctly. Fuel pressures rechecked, fuel flow re-checked, fuel pump was only 30 hrs old and no sign of fuel from the pump telltale drain pipe.
After the second time and lots of research about fuel and the effect of variations in the Reid vapour pressure due to fuel blending for summer and winter fuels, i drained the fuel tank and refilled with 100% avgas 100. I picked a day over 40deg (plenty of those during the summer here) with delayed takeoff until temperatures were in the Yellow caution area, there was no issue. (My home strip is 2 km long, i had a plan and options)
After landing and allowing the plane to sit and heat soak for 15 mins with very high under cowl temps, the exercise was repeated with no problems, with the electric pump on or off the fuel pressure remained stable. I then experimented with different % Avgas/ULP mix down to 30% Avgas with no further problems in the hot weather. I now run with an Avgas/Ulp mix in the hotter weather with no further issues.

Cheers, Andrew.
 
Fuel Pressure Issues

For all the RV12 Rotax members that may be having some fuel pressure issues, we'd like to talk to you. You can email me at [email protected] or steve@aircraft specialty.com.
Tom
 
AJSWA;1076394....After landing and allowing the plane to sit and heat soak for 15 mins with very high under cowl temps said:
Thanks Andrew (and all) - I think that might be it, the heat soaked part perhaps with the weaker winter gas. Certainly the pressure doesn't drop to zero, but seeing it struggle in the low 2's raises some concerns. 100LL is cheaper these days (i think I filled up at 3.73/gal), so it might be worth just using that during these transition to heat times.
 
I don't know if Arizona has winter gas because not much seasonal temp change. Auto fuel gets reformulated twice a year when temps change in the spring and fall. The winter formulation allows better vaporization at lower temps which makes for easier engine starting in cold weather. Vapor lock would be more prevalent using winter gas in warmer temps.
 
Maybe worth noting that Australia uses RON octane ratings not AKI, so our 95 RON is 90-91 AKI. 91 RON is 87 AKI. Many service stations also have 98 RON or 93-94 AKI, but it's generally less available in country areas.
 
I don't know if Arizona has winter gas because not much seasonal temp change. Auto fuel gets reformulated twice a year when temps change in the spring and fall. The winter formulation allows better vaporization at lower temps which makes for easier engine starting in cold weather. Vapor lock would be more prevalent using winter gas in warmer temps.

Arizona does have a boutique gasoline formula and alters a bit by county....

Approximately 15 refineries produce the particular gasoline formula, known as Arizona CBG, which the federal government requires to help ensure the air quality in Phoenix stays within healthful levels. Most of these refineries are located in southern California, western Texas and New Mexico. Typically only a few of them blend Arizona CBG at any given time of the year.

What is Conventional Gasoline?
Conventional gasoline is a volatile flammable liquid mixture of hundreds of species of hydrocarbons, obtained from the distillation of crude oil, and used as fuel for internal combustion engines. It is gasoline that has not been modified by adding an oxygenate and has not been chemically reformulated to meet any particular air quality standards. Conventional gasoline is used everywhere in Arizona except Metropolitan Tucson during the winter (October through March) and in Maricopa County (year-round).


Nice long explanation in this FAQ from Pinal County explaining the distribution system in the state -

http://www.pinalcountyaz.gov/AirQua...ion/az_motor_fuel_and_supply_distribution.pdf
 
What type of fuel pump do you have? Is it the new cast aluminum Corona pump, or the older stamped steel cad plated AC pump?

If you're experinecing low fuel pressure on the new style cast aluminum pump, you're probably looking at a failing mechanical fuel pump and it needs to be replaced. Even if the pump is past the warranty period there's a good chance Rotax will cover the warranty.

Does the pressure stabilize with the electric pump on?

Call me if you have any questions, I have a lot of experience with these pumps and Rotax engines.
 
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