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  #21  
Old 11-21-2008, 10:16 AM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Brown View Post
Fear, uncertainty, and doubt

Why is this not about temperature, RPMs, and clearances? Oil doesn't know if its flying or not.

I'm not knowledgeable about oil or engines, and I don't find oil to be a major cost overall, so I'm not motivated to experiment.

Someone should though so we can all benifit

Tangentially related:
2000 hr TBO x 150mph = 300,000 miles

That's a low average speed for an RV. For all the whining about the outdated "Lycosourous", I'd like to see one factory auto engine that could run that many miles at the high power settings we use. Even if the average Lyco only went half that long I think its a major feat.

I agree, oil does not know what engine it is in however there may be some truth to the synthetic oil/ lead idea. Mobil oil engineers confirmed the concern in an E-mail to me. I've been using Mobil 1 in the Subaru for 5 years and believe at about the 200 hour mark, lead started to jam up the rings, manifested by a slow drop in compression and an increase in oil consumption.

About 20 hours ago, I switched to Aeroshell 20/50. Oil consumption has stopped increasing and there is less oil coming from the breather. The compression test next month may shed some more light on the subject.

People have run Mobil 1 in Lycomings with no issues on auto fuel however it is about the same price as Aeroshell around here. Conventional auto oil is certainly less expensive but I don't think I'd use it in a Lycoming until well proven by someone else.

BTW, Don Parnham in Oklahoma, who does Gyro training routinely, sees Subarus going 2000+ hours with no maintenance other than cam belts. One Gyro training fellow in Oz reported 3800 hours this Spring on an EJ22 and it was still going strong.
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  #22  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:11 PM
Doug Eves Doug Eves is offline
 
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The best use for aviation oil is for lubricating door hinges that squeak. I have worked for Imperial Oil (EXXON)for over 30 years. 10 in R&D and 20 in quality assurance. Use XD3 15w40 and never look back. Keeps the interals spotless without making combustion chamber deposits. It could make deposits if your burning copious amounts of oil but under normal oil consumpsion rates the deposit theory is a myth. I have seen lycomings apart (not from using the wrong oil , just some inferior/poorly desighned wrist pin buttons) at 1000 hrs. that had 0 deposits or wear anywhere and looked as clean as the day it was assembled. One engine was using Mobil 1 5w30 and the other was using XD3 15w40. Other engines I have seen apart that were using AV oil were full of coke deposits and were filthy inside. All the voodoo aside, I use XD3 15w40 in all my tractors,my truck, my car,offshore,combine,my lawnmower, and my RV-6 (IO-360) without any problems or worries. Oil companies love to make you feel special with all those special products. I don't use it because it's cheaper, I use it because it gives better protection to my motor and that is a fact. P.S. I won't write back to argue because I don't have to.
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  #23  
Old 06-09-2009, 12:12 AM
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osxuser osxuser is offline
 
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I'd be worried about gumming up and sticking the rings for starters. Car oils aren't designed to burn (as mentioned above). By the time you get a high enough quality auto oil, at $5+ a quart, you mind as well buy aeroshell at $6...

My 2

We run Redline Racing 50w synthetic in the Formula 1, Continental O-200, running 100LL. But thats a VERY life-limited engine, comes apart every 20-30 hours. No noticeable deposits, but then again, we're running pretty tight tolerances, I don't think we get much blow-by at all. .
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  #24  
Old 06-09-2009, 04:20 AM
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Kahuna Kahuna is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Eves View Post
The best use for aviation oil is for lubricating door hinges that squeak. I have worked for Imperial Oil (EXXON)for over 30 years. 10 in R&D and 20 in quality assurance. Use XD3 15w40 and never look back. Keeps the interals spotless without making combustion chamber deposits. It could make deposits if your burning copious amounts of oil but under normal oil consumpsion rates the deposit theory is a myth. I have seen lycomings apart (not from using the wrong oil , just some inferior/poorly desighned wrist pin buttons) at 1000 hrs. that had 0 deposits or wear anywhere and looked as clean as the day it was assembled. One engine was using Mobil 1 5w30 and the other was using XD3 15w40. Other engines I have seen apart that were using AV oil were full of coke deposits and were filthy inside. All the voodoo aside, I use XD3 15w40 in all my tractors,my truck, my car,offshore,combine,my lawnmower, and my RV-6 (IO-360) without any problems or worries. Oil companies love to make you feel special with all those special products. I don't use it because it's cheaper, I use it because it gives better protection to my motor and that is a fact. P.S. I won't write back to argue because I don't have to.
Bout time someone chimed in with actual knowledge on this stuff.
Doug, so its your experience that the XD3 out performed the aviation oils? No wear and a cleaner engine?

Googling, I see a lot of references to XD-3 oils from other oil company names. Esso, Kendall, Mobil, etc. Are these the same oils under a different name?
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  #25  
Old 06-09-2009, 10:52 AM
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RVbySDI RVbySDI is offline
 
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Default Oil, fuel, etc.

Like others posting here, I am not a lubrication engineer. For that matter I am not any type of engineer. And, I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn last night either, so the statements below can be taken for what they are worth.

Being the skeptic that I am, brand names, model types, company brands, etc. are all created to sell products (read increase revenue for the seller). They are not created to increase performance, reliability, or any other measure of efficiency we can think of. Brand loyalty is a very important tool used in the retail world to increase profits. Once we become sucked into the brand loyalty mentality we begin clouding our minds with silly ideas that nothing new could ever come along to do what MY product can do. However, it is the performance qualities that should be more important to us gear heads.

The concept that there is something unique and special about our aviation oil really plays into the hands of the corporate advertisers. They will continue to do everything in their power to keep consumers thinking down the lines of brand loyalty.

From what I hear in the posts here and elsewhere, there is the fact that the aviation oils do protect against lead buildup. Well, I have no reason to believe otherwise. However, there is not much else being discussed concerning what other vitally important service a particular brand or type of aviation oil is doing better or even just differently than any other type of oil (Bear in mind I am not discussing here the different viscosity weights of the various types of oil. I am only discussing the perceived differences between aviation oil and other types of oil.).

So, if this is the case, what happens when an aviation engine stops using leaded fuel? What technical argument will then exist to support using aviation labeled oil over any other branded type of oil?

Concerning the air cooled vs water cooled issue, it seems to me the water cooled engine would have much closer tolerances than the air cooled engine. Therefore, the oil had better be able to dissipate heat buildup that could occur in such tight quarters. If this is so, I would expect any oil produced for this environment to have better friction reduction and heat transfer qualities.

Several individuals have mentioned the burning of oil. Is it possible to burn oil without leaving residue on the pistons, rings, etc.? I would speculate that regardless of the market the oil is being pushed toward there are several companies that are selling an oil that would burn cleanly.

Now, having said all of this, here is my thinking (I know, I know, who cares what I think!). This is a small part of the expense of owning and operating your own aircraft. So I will not experiment with my engine oil and use whatever is recommended by the engine manufacturer. However, if we are honest with ourselves and I, in turn, am honest with myself, we must admit that almost all of us are using whatever brand, viscosity weight, type of oil we use, mostly based upon what someone else recommended or told us we should use. Our decisions are not based upon any type of scientific investigation about the best oil to use. We base our decisions on what our friends, family, mechanic, or sales men tell us we should do.

Well, my thoughts on the matter (I know, I know, who cares what I think!)!
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  #26  
Old 06-09-2009, 12:23 PM
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<<Bout time someone chimed in with actual knowledge on this stuff.>>

Yes indeed. Doug, please share more.
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  #27  
Old 06-09-2009, 12:37 PM
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jferraro17 jferraro17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Eves View Post
P.S. I won't write back to argue because I don't have to.

That's got to be the greatest sign-off to a post ever!!!

I'm stealing it! (or importing it to the US, if that sounds better)




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  #28  
Old 06-09-2009, 02:21 PM
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In my heart of hearts I've always known the "Aviation oils are for planes and motor oil is for cars" argument has been steeped in the same kind witchcraft that has prevented the adoption of the use of mogas.

As a delighted user of mogas (even mogas with ethanol) I can say that it takes time to work through the technical arguments and make an informed decision.

For mogas it was primarilly vapour lock..For auto oil I was wondering what was so different?...Different bearing material on the crank for instance.

Sounds like we have some real world knowledge that shows most of the arguments are pure bunk.

The lead in the fuel maybe an argument..but hey if you mostly run mogas than that argument goes away too.

I can hardly wait to use up my case of 100W..

Frank
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  #29  
Old 06-09-2009, 04:06 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Eves View Post
The best use for aviation oil is for lubricating door hinges that squeak. I have worked for Imperial Oil (EXXON)for over 30 years. 10 in R&D and 20 in quality assurance. Use XD3 15w40 and never look back. Keeps the interals spotless without making combustion chamber deposits. It could make deposits if your burning copious amounts of oil but under normal oil consumpsion rates the deposit theory is a myth. I have seen lycomings apart (not from using the wrong oil , just some inferior/poorly desighned wrist pin buttons) at 1000 hrs. that had 0 deposits or wear anywhere and looked as clean as the day it was assembled. One engine was using Mobil 1 5w30 and the other was using XD3 15w40. Other engines I have seen apart that were using AV oil were full of coke deposits and were filthy inside. All the voodoo aside, I use XD3 15w40 in all my tractors,my truck, my car,offshore,combine,my lawnmower, and my RV-6 (IO-360) without any problems or worries. Oil companies love to make you feel special with all those special products. I don't use it because it's cheaper, I use it because it gives better protection to my motor and that is a fact. P.S. I won't write back to argue because I don't have to.
All what you say may well be true, Doug, but from a practical point of view having just purchased a Lycoming engine under warrantee, I must use the oil the company recommends or the warrantee is no good.

Just stuff to think about before going off to your local auto parts store for some of their oil....
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  #30  
Old 06-10-2009, 12:40 AM
rv72004 rv72004 is offline
 
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Also a consideration is that mineral oil is a better rust preventative than the fully synthetic stuff [or so ive often been told]. As aero engines are used more infrequently , this may be a reason to stay with a w100 ?
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