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What Van needs is a...

kbehrent said:
I have to admit I was a bit disappointed in the announcement of the RV-14.

Given the financial crisis going on, I personally believe announcing another kit that is slightly larger than an existing model and costing $90,000+ to complete is just not good timing. Frankly, I expect that the majority will be customers who had already decided to build one of the other kits and may switch to the Rv-14.

Giving the statements from Van in the past over his displeasure of the cost of LSA and the recent experience gained by Kruger and Scott in building the KK-1, I was really hoping that they would introduce a new kit that would cost @ $25,000 to build and fly. Yes, it would have required Van's to depart from the certified Lycoming and Rotax engines, but I believe engines like the AeroVee, and others, have proven reliable enough. To me, the Sonex and/or Onex is an example.

I really believe the customer base in this price range could be very large to include not just the first-time builder, but those who have other aircraft who simply want a second that is cheap to build and fly. Given Van's typical kit quality and popularity, it certainly would be attractive and priced right so the decision to purchase would be much quicker than the other higher cost models. It would also provide Van's a complete fleet of aircraft that a builder could migrate to as their needs change over the years.

Giving that every alphabet organization is trying to promote aviation and to attract new and old pilots and getting them in the air, I just don't think introducing yet another $90,000+ aircraft that will take you 3+ yrs to complete is going to accomplish much.

Just my $.02 worth.
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I understand and appreciate the evolution that the 14 represents. Having seen the difference that the latest technologies in both the kit and the documentation can yield to build-ability - I applaud what Van's has done with the 14. However, that said I agree 100% with everything else you have said. If we don't find a low cost, easy, attractive way to get planes in the air, we're going to see GA come to a slow painful halt. Personally, I desire a lightweight, low cost tandem. Update the 4 or something similar. Give us the VAN's equivalent of a Sonex or CX-5!

(added my $.01 to your $.02. Value's going up!) DJ
 
JonJay said:
The 7 replaced the 6 quickly because it was no longer being produced by Van's, simple as that.
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The last time I checked Van's website they were still selling the RV6 and RV6A. They still sell the wing, fuselage and finishing kits. The empennage is available as seperate items. I doubt they're selling too many though. ;)
 
Bob,

Ya know... I think, I bet he sells more kits than one might think for the six.

There are a HUUUUUGE number of those kits still in production all over the world.

As you know the six build is more difficult than any of it's other juxtaposed stablemates. Therefore, they take longer.

I think an interesting number to discover would be just how many sixes are out there actively being completed.

In fact, just last month I met Aussieflyer1 from this board and he told me how he just purchased this partially completed six-A project and had some questions about it.

The six is a WONDERFUL airplane!

I am going to start a poll of projects under construction ONLY. I think the number of sixes will be pretty large. I am now curious.

:) CJ
 
I once asked for an oddball item in a Big Box store. The man attempting to help me smilingly said, "If we don't have it, you don't need it." He was making a joke of their lack of some specific items, in this case a numbered drill bit.

That store is one of the most successful in the country. Van's has figured this out, how to provide something that will fit almost everyone's needs, but certainly not all. It is no secret that their model, taking a successful design and modifying and improving it from time to time, has made them the Big Dog of the kitplane industry. I don't expect them to change. I don't expect a "clean sheet of paper" design, just because we want it. The development costs are too great. The 10, and even the 12 were based on their successes with the 6. My 9A even has an engine mount, nose gear, and complete FWF off from a destroyed 6A. We can dream and even beg, but I don't expect anything except refinements of the finest kitplanes money can buy. We shouldn't be surprised by the 14, not one bit.

Bob
 
The Angle Valve Club

The RV-14,in 4 cylinder form is an Angle Valve only air frame.I predict more will be built with 540's than Angle Valves given the cost and availability of engines.
The production and engineering improvements Wider cabin,better tilt up system(better strut setup),Robust nose gear,Aerobatic RV-9 tail,better wing attachment point,better plans and documentation,in short a better product than what has come before.It's Evolution in the way that Mercedes-Benz or Porsche has evolved there automobiles.Vans aircraft is no longer a Mom&Pop operation.As pointed out before it behooves us all that they succeed,control growth,improve existing products and bring to market what we will buy and build.I hope Vans evolves the RV-3 before they bring out the 10 passenger IO-720 model.:eek:
 
Captain_John said:
Bob,
Ya know... I think, I bet he sells more kits than one might think for the six.
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Captain,

I wouldn't be surprised about that. Some committed, very long term RV6 builders are probably still buying their final kits. The point I was making however is that presumably no-one is opting to now start an RV6 from scratch. The fact that Vans has now dropped the RV6 empennage kit would tend to confirm that there is no demand from new buyers for the RV6, despite the relatively cheap price of the RV6 kits. :)

20 years ago in the heyday of the RV6, RV builders were typically building quite cheap planes. The defacto standards in those days was for a half life 0-320, a wooden fixed pitch prop, rudimentary VFR panel, a builder paint job, and home-made seats. In those days the cost of the Vans RV6 kits was a very significant component in the overall final cost of the aircraft.

Wind forward to the current demographic and today the trend for the RV7 is for a new IO-360, constant speed prop, electronic ignition, tons of third party goodies, custom made seats and trims, professional paint job, and expensive digital panels (often IFR). In other word the cost of the Vans kits has typically become a much smaller percentage of the total build cost.

With that in mind I think that most new buyers today will be prepared to pay a bit more for a current model (RV14) rather than have a huge final investment in a superseded model (RV7). Many will be rightly fearful that any cost savings initially gained by opting for the slightly cheaper RV7 kits will be instantly gobbled up, and exceeded, by a significant reduction in resale value once the aircraft is completed.

I'm guessing that if Vans can obtain a good volume price on the IO-390 (as they have been hinting) it will sound the death knell for the venerable RV7 (providing of course that they haven't produced an aircraft with any quirky flight characteristics).

At any rate we'll find out in due course when the RV14 and engine finally goes on sale. Then, all will be revealed ;)
 
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Captain Avgas said:
I'm guessing that if Vans can obtain a good volume price on the IO-390 (as they have been hinting) it will sound the death knell for the venerable RV7
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I would respectfully disagree. The beauty of the 7/9 is that you can still piece together an affordable aircraft with mid-time engines and basic panels. It looks like the 14 is trying to be a plug-n-play easier build with new engine (which translates to much more $$$$). I would bet 2 of 3 new builders of the 7/9 believe they can be resourceful and build their new plane on the cheaper side. My guess is the 14 will end up much more expensive creating two separate and distinct markets between the 7/9 and 14.

My only hope is Van's swallows their pride and provides a retrofit for the 14's landing gear improvements onto the 7/9 series, because these changes represent an improvement in the safety of me and my family, not just a cosmetic nice-to-have.
 
Captain Avgas said:
Many will be rightly fearful that any cost savings initially gained by opting for the slightly cheaper RV7 kits will be instantly gobbled up, and exceeded, by a significant reduction in resale value once the aircraft is completed.
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Your probably right, but I think it goes against the spirit of what building your own airplane is all about. I built my 6 set up as the airplane I wanted, or throught I wanted, with the intent of never selling it, or if I did, not caring about what I could get for it. It's value was in the build process and the flying experience to me.
If people think the 14 is better because it will protect thier investment, and that guides thier choice, well they haven't been paying attention to GA aircraft sales trends.
Still, not arguing with your logic, people may think this way.
 
FresnoR said:
I would bet 2 of 3 new builders of the 7/9 believe they can be resourceful and build their new plane on the cheaper side.
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What amazes me these days is that the RV7 Quickbuild kit seems to have become the new defacto standard. Virtually everyone I know personally who has bought an RV7(A) in the last couple of years has gone QB.

It is increasingly apparent that RV builders in general these days are largely prepared to pay more money (and in the case of the QB, a LOT more money) for an easier, faster build. A different type of player is coming into the game. The demographic is changing. The increasing ease of construction is attracting a new buyer who tends to be more affluent. He has more money but less time. and less workshop skills.
 
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JonJay said:
Your probably right, but I think it goes against the spirit of what building your own airplane is all about. I built my 6 set up as the airplane I wanted, or throught I wanted, with the intent of never selling it, or if I did, not caring about what I could get for it. It's value was in the build process and the flying experience to me.
If people think the 14 is better because it will protect thier investment, and that guides thier choice, well they haven't been paying attention to GA aircraft sales trends.
Still, not arguing with your logic, people may think this way.
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Totally agree with you...

Of all the factors in my decision to build a plane, ANY plane, the one thing that never, ever entered into it for me was resale value. I have no intention of ever selling it, and if I ever do, I'll just get what I can for it and call it good.
 
Flying Scotsman said:
Totally agree with you...

Of all the factors in my decision to build a plane, ANY plane, the one thing that never, ever entered into it for me was resale value. I have no intention of ever selling it, and if I ever do, I'll just get what I can for it and call it good.
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Steve, I hope you realise your dream of flying your RV forever. :)

I do note however that on VansAirforce there seems to be a statistical discrepancy between the many busy builders who say they will never sell their aircraft and the fact that most RVs coming up for sale in the classifieds seem to have less than 300 hours on the clock. ;) But we digress.
 
I must say that my project is stopped at the moment due to lack of funds, but at this stage there is no thought of selling it. the likelyhood of the situation improving is remote, but I still have no intention of selling, and the project is literally 95% finished.:(
 
ref High Wing

During a factory tour I asked if there was any potential for a high wing RV.

Their response: they thought the Bearhawk had adequately met the market demand for that configuration.

Not enough demand to warrant their own design.
 
Captain_John said:
It is the Frankenstein machine made from legacy components to make the ultimate "traditional" type of RV.

....if common sense ruled the world... Nevermind, what was I thinking?

Forget I said anything.

;). CJ
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Where is that Therapy Dog when you need him? Wyatt, Wyatt, here boy!
 
RV-14

Im glad Vans is improving kits like they have been doing for years ie:6 to 7 4 to 8 ect. Im also glad they made so many kits with so many buyers as it gave me the chance to buy a RV-6 kit at a great price and it was the plane that I wanted to build more than a 7 so theres a reason to supply parts to past kits and Vans still makes a profit on the 6 parts as the price increases each year and like its been for years Vans has good deals and fair prices for his customers and that RV Grin is right around the corner.
Bob
 
An aluminum Fornier RF-4

An aluminum Fournier RF-4 would be a beautiful and capable airplane, that would fit into the Vans family.

Genuinely aerobatic, a decent touring airplane, able to soar in strong conditions or quietly motor glide on less than 1 gph.

I think more people would enjoy soaring if they could self launch. Even if you have zero interest in soaring the RF-4 is a fun sport plane.

105mph on 2.5 gph 115 mph on 3.5 gph

Fun
 
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For a high wing, Van's should buy the rights to the Glastar and bring it back in Van's fashion!

Bob
 
Hmm, interesting to note that I made a post in 2012 that my project was stopped due to lack of funds but I was unlikely to sell the project. The post was made by PIN 37 which is me, cant remember why it got changed, amyway I digress. My project was recently completed and test flown and due to circumstances that were not known at the time I have sold the aircraft. Very difficult thing to do and I wish I didnt have to do it and I regret it after an 11 year build, thing is though, never say never.:(:(
 
49clipper

bhassel said:
For a high wing, Van's should buy the rights to the Glastar and bring it back in Van's fashion!

Bob
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I think you guys are missing it. I just put a deposit on a Rans S-21 Outbound. It has everything the RV guys want. Titan 180hp, all metal, but with steel cage inside from the firewall to the baggage area, 38mph stall, 155mph cruise, high wing, single strut wing, etc. So far has not flown yet, but coming from a class kit producer just like Vans. I personally cannot wait to start building. Also it uses pulled rivets thru-out (pro of con for the purist). I think I will use flush rivets hand driven (on the wing) just for the fun of it. If you will buy nothing but a Vans product, its not for you, but, I am all in.
Jim
RV-6
 
I'd settle for a new website

I'd say an upgrade to Vans antiquated website should be on the to do list. A more intuitive layout, get rid of the 'mouse over' menus, a functioning mobile version. That would be easier to design than a new aircraft! :)
 
49clipper said:
I think you guys are missing it. I just put a deposit on a Rans S-21 Outbound. It has everything the RV guys want. Titan 180hp, all metal, but with steel cage inside from the firewall to the baggage area, 38mph stall, 155mph cruise, high wing, single strut wing, etc. So far has not flown yet, but coming from a class kit producer just like Vans. I personally cannot wait to start building. Also it uses pulled rivets thru-out (pro of con for the purist). I think I will use flush rivets hand driven (on the wing) just for the fun of it. If you will buy nothing but a Vans product, its not for you, but, I am all in.
Jim
RV-6
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Pretty sure this is going to be our next plane also.
 
49clipper said:
I think you guys are missing it. I just put a deposit on a Rans S-21 Outbound. It has everything the RV guys want. Titan 180hp, all metal, but with steel cage inside from the firewall to the baggage area, 38mph stall, 155mph cruise, high wing, single strut wing, etc. So far has not flown yet, but coming from a class kit producer just like Vans. I personally cannot wait to start building. Also it uses pulled rivets thru-out (pro of con for the purist). I think I will use flush rivets hand driven (on the wing) just for the fun of it. If you will buy nothing but a Vans product, its not for you, but, I am all in.
Jim
RV-6
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I like the Outbound as well. I was just able to pick up a Star kit for less than half of the what the Outbound will go for, so I went that way. Once I'm done building that, it'll be back to my RV-9!

You're correct about Van's website. It's always been behind the power curve. I remember when they would only list builders sites that used some archaic
web browser technology and nothing more. It would be nice to at least open a menu item in another tab.

Bob
 
bhassel said:
You're correct about Van's website. It's always been behind the power curve. I remember when they would only list builders sites that used some archaic
web browser technology and nothing more. It would be nice to at least open a menu item in another tab.
Bob
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RV9A Bill said:
The search function for parts really needs improvement, too.
RV9A Bill
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Have you used any of the competitors web sites? Compared to the Glasair web site or, holy cow, the Murphy web site (I have experience with both), the Van's web site is absolutely fantastic. Try ordering a part on line, or even getting a price, from the Glasair web site. I won't even start with the Murphy web site.

The Van's site may not be perfect, but it is light years ahead of the competition.
 
LOL! yes that's true. Van's just does everything so well you expect it across the board. Sorry Van's!

Glassair doesn't even officially recognize the Star!

Bob
 
Not to mention, it IS exactly what I need!

plehrke said:
the 14 is exactly what I would have expected from Van. He has always used stuff from the previous models. Why would he change from a successful formula? I think it is a perfect next model for the highly successful brand that Van has made his trademark.
My prediction is there will never be a high wing RV.
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And I?m not alone.
SO glad Vans came out with the 14!
 
... a new name for the RV. Something that sounds cool and doesn?t have ATC calling me Army
 
DougCronkhite said:
S-21 Outbound will be my next airplane unless Van's announces a high-wing STOL-ish RV..
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I’d be one of the first in line, if Vans offered a bush type plane. I changed my A model to a tail dragger a few years ago, just so I could get in to some backcountry strips. Obviously, the 7, still has its limitations.
I too have been watching the Rans S-21 the last couple of years. Now that I’m retired, I’m getting close to pulling the trigger.

Come on Vans, you can do this.
 
IMO the Vashon Ranger is the equivalent of what a high wing RV would be. Ken Kreuger left Vans for Vashon and designed the Ranger.
 
Pop rivet!

I think it would be a good move to make a quick build like the 12 with pop rivets. Of course you can pound rivets as an option. Also power for high altitude (DA), 2 place side by side and sturdy for rough landings. Van's would own the back country. There are a ton of very old tail dragger Cessna in Alaska if you walk around lake Hood.
Before all the options it should be very base and very quick to build and very cheap with a lot of motor options.
Larry
 
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