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Staying Motivated

I had a frustrating end to my shop day...I had been humming along, finishing the RH elevator substructure on my RV-8 and was riveting the stiffeners to the LH elevator skin when I managed to booger up a rivet on the inside of the trailing edge fold. I've gotten fairly good at drilling out AN470s, but haven't gotten the knack of drilling out flush heads yet, so when I drilled it out, I ended up with an elongated hole...opened it up to #30 and put an oops rivet in, but somehow that ended up even worse. I decided to put down the tools before I did something more foolish, though I'm fearful that when I drill out the NAS 1097 (and it's bad enough that there's no doubt it will have to come out), I'll end up with an unusable LH elevator skin. I'm not looking forward to ordering the skin and stiffeners, and then doing all the cutting, drilling, deburring, dimpling, priming, etc. again to get back to where I am now...already had to do it with the rudder once, and similarly for one mistake that got out of hand.

I'm not really looking for advice as far as what to do, though...as I'm coming up on the end of the tail section, I admit it's experiences like this that leave me a little daunted about how far I have to go. It's bad enough to have to scrap a few hundred dollars in parts if it comes to that (plus cross-country shipping and the lead time), but I worry about the inevitable screw-up on the wings, when I can't exactly just throw the whole spar out and try again. And I'm still in awe of how much there is to learn--I sort of marvel at all the things that were completely unknown when I started that are now pretty routine, but I just got a starter fiberglass kit and have this sort of feeling that every part of this process is going to make me feel in over my head.

It seems like lots of people around here have made all kinds of mistakes (many of the same ones I have), and have managed to press on...my question is, looking back at where I am now, how did you move past the anxiety of the next steps? Did things just get easier (though not necessarily less time consuming) as you got more proficient, or did you figure out how to fix the mistakes better along the way? Does the learning curve ever start to level out?

I'm not saying I'm on the verge of throwing in the towel or anything--I genuinely enjoy the building process and know I'll feel less frustrated and have a better perspective on what to do now in a few days. I'm just looking for what you guys all think now about where I am, looking back on it...
 
Build on brother! We've all been there. Built two rudders, 5 trim tabs, the list goes on but as your skills grown your mistakes diminish but you will make them all the way to the sweet, awesome, rewarding end!

You can forever say .. "I built an airplane."
 
It seems like lots of people around here have made all kinds of mistakes (many of the same ones I have), and have managed to press on...my question is, looking back at where I am now, how did you move past the anxiety of the next steps? Did things just get easier (though not necessarily less time consuming) as you got more proficient, or did you figure out how to fix the mistakes better along the way? Does the learning curve ever start to level out?

I'm not saying I'm on the verge of throwing in the towel or anything--I genuinely enjoy the building process and know I'll feel less frustrated and have a better perspective on what to do now in a few days. I'm just looking for what you guys all think now about where I am, looking back on it...

You are in good company. As you progress, it's a bit of both: you're skills get better, and you get better at fixing your mistakes. You will decide to replace a few parts, but sometimes that won't be an option, and there is (almost) always a perfectly acceptable repair.

As to your current problem, you could probably clean up the hole, add rivets on either side of it, and fill it in prior to painting. I promise you won't be the only one - any builder can immediately point you to something on their build that they screwed up that probably only they will ever notice or know about.

Taking a break is a good idea, nothing will seem as terrible tomorrow.

Chris
 
post a pic of your rivet. it may lot be as bad as you think. nobody building a perfect airplane.

everyone has set backs, I've ordered more than one part from Van's. I built my trim tab 3 times.

remember, only quitters quit.
 
post a pic of your rivet. it may lot be as bad as you think. nobody building a perfect airplane.

The one on the left is the current status. I'm not sure how I ended up with the rivet being so proud...it's obviously a tight space but I've never done it so badly, and I was being careful since it was my second attempt:

i-LHKLHjT-XL.jpg


To make matters worse, the rivet in the next row (same position--against the inside fold) isn't great. If I manage to get the one I'm working on to a tenable position I'm half prepared to just leave it as is, even though it's got a bit of an edge to it:

i-qCdttNp-L.jpg
 
your rivet isn't that bad, I've done that more than once. it happens when you apply more pressure on the bucking bar than on the river gun when you start to set the rivet. its common when you have to reach a long ways (like on this skin).

take a break, dont be in a hurry, then very carefully drill it out and set a new rivet and build on. I have a few rivets on my plane that look like your second one you posted and I'm going to leave them exactly where they are.
 
Punch

Before you dig out the drill, try this.
Use a pin punch and small hammer to tap the rivet once. Often they seat and you can proceed. If not, read up on drilling rivets before proceeding. Then as others said, you can add another either side if necessary. Ask Vans to be certain. The extra rivets may not be needed.

As far as the future...
Read ahead both the manual and this forum. Don't make other builder's mistakes.
When you do make one, stop immediately. Come back to it fresh the next day.
We all make mistakes. Some of us, made some doosies. It's part of the journey. The good news is, you get better every day and make fewer mistakes. The really cool part is looking at a finished product and feeling proud.
 
it's tough

There are times when you want to say "screw it" and get back to your real life. The frustration of going backwards when you mess something up is enough to make you scream. Sometimes I think it's a miracle anyone ever finishes.

These moments just suck. I've got no advice but I certainly know your pain.
 
As others said, build on. My coping mechanism was to realize my skills would continually improve and by the time I reached the end, if I couldn't live with the screw-ups on the tail I could build a new tail in a heart beat. My "f-it factor" changed over time and I accepted it would fly just fine with some cosmetic flaws. This too will pass.
 
your rivet isn't that bad, I've done that more than once. it happens when you apply more pressure on the bucking bar than on the river gun when you start to set the rivet. its common when you have to reach a long ways (like on this skin).

In this case, I was back riveting. I'm pretty good with the back riveting part, but since you have to bend the other side of the skin out of the way to get to this one, I've always found these challenging...just not ended up with anything quite this bad so far.
 
I scrapped my first horizontal stabilizer for poor riveting. It took me some time to decide how to proceed. Then I spent some effort and some money and with better tools, taught myself how to rivet better. Then I bought a new stabilizer and that one turned out ok.

I realized that I'd probably make more mistakes and learn new things. I try to do the learning first and sometimes I can avoid the mistakes. Still, my scrap shelf has plenty of parts in it (I'll skip the list to be merciful to myself) and the cost of replacement parts so far is embarrassing. But I'm improving and most of those are earlier parts rather than recent ones.

Here's what I decided: it's all fun, it's a challenge for me, and I can afford to replace my mistakes, even though I make more than a lot of builders. Keep going!

Dave
RV-3B, now skinning the fuselage
 
Then as others said, you can add another either side if necessary. Ask Vans to be certain. The extra rivets may not be needed.

Forgive the dumb question, but what happens with the current hole if I put a rivet next to it? Does it just get filler and painted over?

Pretty sure it's on the top, unfortunately...

As far as the rest goes, I've gotten pretty good at doing my research before taking steps and this forum has helped tremendously (I haven't posted much, but I lurk almost daily). Most of the mistakes I've made don't seem to have been errors of knowledge, though--they tend to be just something slipping up. Like this--I've back-riveted dozens (hundreds?) of rivets in the rudder and RH elevator, and felt like this was one of those things I've just gotten pretty good at, which is why it feels like such a step back.
 
Well, after sleeping on it and calming down, I went out this morning to make another attempt. I had previously had difficulty drilling out the flat heads because it was difficult to feather the Sioux air drill to a slow enough speed to maintain control, so I got out the cordless and set it to low speed--low and behold, that made a tremendous difference and I was able to pull the rivet out without destroying the hole any further. This was probably obvious to everybody else out there...but for whatever reason it hadn't occurred to me that I might be better off with the cordless in this case.

I pulled out another NAS1097 and taped it down really well, cleaned out the area between the stiffener and skin, and redimpled to make sure I had the best shape I could do, and ended up with this:

i-p4bJXVM-L.jpg


This I find more than acceptable! I hit the other rivet a few times against the back rivet plate and it flattened out as well...might be a bit overdriven, but I think it meets the standard of "it ain't going to come apart" than I'm going for.

I appreciate the advice and words of encouragement...I think I just needed to vent to some folks that understood the frustration better than the wife does. On to the next mistake!
 
FYI... for builders looking to upgrade or prospective builders looking to purchase a pneumatic drill, consider the Nova products from Pan American Tool Corp. The Nova products are extremely quiet and have incredible speed control down to low rpm. My 0.02. (I am in no way affiliated with Nova or Pan American)
Ian
 
Strikefinder,

Congrats on keeping your cool, putting your tools down, and backing off overnight. Smart move. I think we all have those moments. Many times the difference in a good fix and starting over is having the patience to back off.

When this type of thing happens I find that two things really help:

1) Stop. Give it some time. Go mow the lawn, get a honey-do out of the way, etc. Just get away from the airplane. I find that when I return, the problem doesn't look nearly as bad as it did.

2) Do some research and put some thought into the fix. I usually look here, maybe call the Mother Ship, or just try and think through a creative fix.

Looks like that's exactly what you did. I think that's how we survive and enjoy the build.

In any case, I think you answered your own question.

By the way, looks like a nice fix!

Fred
 
Quote: "You know, there are a lot of great carpenters out there, but the way you can tell a real expert is by how good they are at hiding their mistakes"
 
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Nice recovery. That looks fine. As others have said, some think time is good. And as you go, you will get better at both avoiding mistakes and coming up with creative recoveries.

Well, after sleeping on it and calming down, I went out this morning to make another attempt. I had previously had difficulty drilling out the flat heads because it was difficult to feather the Sioux air drill to a slow enough speed to maintain control, so I got out the cordless and set it to low speed--low and behold, that made a tremendous difference and I was able to pull the rivet out without destroying the hole any further. This was probably obvious to everybody else out there...but for whatever reason it hadn't occurred to me that I might be better off with the cordless in this case.

I pulled out another NAS1097 and taped it down really well, cleaned out the area between the stiffener and skin, and redimpled to make sure I had the best shape I could do, and ended up with this:

i-p4bJXVM-L.jpg


This I find more than acceptable! I hit the other rivet a few times against the back rivet plate and it flattened out as well...might be a bit overdriven, but I think it meets the standard of "it ain't going to come apart" than I'm going for.

I appreciate the advice and words of encouragement...I think I just needed to vent to some folks that understood the frustration better than the wife does. On to the next mistake!
 
Another tip in removing rivets is to place the drill bit on the hole in the rivet and turn the drill chuck by hand a few turns to get a good hole going. Then connect the airline and drill it out with the rest of the way with the drill.
 
FYI... for builders looking to upgrade or prospective builders looking to purchase a pneumatic drill, consider the Nova products from Pan American Tool Corp. The Nova products are extremely quiet and have incredible speed control down to low rpm. My 0.02. (I am in no way affiliated with Nova or Pan American)
Ian

I will agree with this, my Nova is probably the best tool I have in my toolbox. Got mine through Cleaveland.

Strikefinder: I too was very frustrated during the tail and had much the same feelings as you do. I can tell you that it will start to change when you do the wings, the wings are much easier and you also get the practice you need to become proficient. I had to do the horizontal stabilizer spars 3 times and the trim tab 3 times. I feel your pain but it gets easier. Another thing that helped is when I stopped trying to become a perfectionist, letting the tiny things go really helps.

A little tip, I too had back riveting issues similar to this and what I found was that sometimes the skin isn't laying perfectly flat, this pushes the rivet out when you start to buck and it sets way proud.
 
One of the interesting, kinda semi-paradoxical things I've learned along this journey has been how to see the often-thin line between "a thing that I need to walk away from and revisit tomorrow" and "a thing that I just need to move past."

There have been plenty of times when I screwed something up, and then screwed it up even worse trying to fix the initial screwup. Sometimes this has gotten to a third- our fourth-order state.

But I can also recall shooting rivets in the horizontal stab, and buggering one up, and just hilariously overreacting. I'd stop what I was doing, curse under my breath, silently wonder if I had what it took to build a frickin airplane, then spend fifteen minutes carefully drilling the thing out. Nowadays I accept that bad rivets happen. I might be shooting a row, and somewhere along the line I have a proud rivet, or I mashed the shop head, or whatever. I shrug, circle it with a Sharpie, finish the row, and the go back and replace the bad ones.

And this attitude extends to much larger foul-ups than bad rivets. I've gotten to a point where I might actually ruin a part, and while I'm not happy about it, I set it aside, note that I need to order a replacement, and move on to something else.

Come to think of it, I guess it's not so much finding that line between "quit for the night" and "push through" as it is just not taking mistakes too hard.


Anyway, on a more practical note, I like Intruder's method. When drilling out a flush rivet, I center punch on the divot, then hand-twist a sharp bit to get the hole going. If the hole wants to be off-center, this is my chance to carefully walk it back to center. Only when I'm satisfied with it being on center do I fire up the power tools.
 
I scrapped an entire rudder because I messed up the trailing edge holes. No recovery from that. The next day I just accepted it and resigned myself to ordering a new set of parts.

I invested in a complete set of numbered drill bits with case. When I have to drill out a flush head rivet I get a few sizes smaller bit (say a #33 to drill out an AD4 rivet), then proceed to drill. The smaller size gives me a bit of margin on the hole in case I haven't perfectly center the drill. Those uncommonly used sizes give me a lot of flexibility.
 
In this case, I was back riveting. I'm pretty good with the back riveting part, but since you have to bend the other side of the skin out of the way to get to this one, I've always found these challenging...just not ended up with anything quite this bad so far.

IIRC, I was pretty trepidacious about bending that skin up out of the way, but a buddy who had finished his -8 that I helped with was there and said "just bend it up...it'll go back...don't worry about it". He was right...that skin will bend up a long way, enough to get the piece flat (you may need another set of hands) *and* the rivet gun on straight. Have a friend help you hold it down firmly.

Bought quite a few replacement parts myself. We've all been there. Build on!
 
..so I got out the cordless and set it to low speed--low and behold, that made a tremendous difference and I was able to pull the rivet out without destroying the hole any further. This was probably obvious to everybody else out there...but for whatever reason it hadn't occurred to me that I might be better off with the cordless in this case.

I used my Sioux drill for the vast majority of my build and then bought a Dewalt Cordless 20V drill and never looked back. The ability to accurately feather the trigger and not have to drag a air line across the shop makes all the difference. At 2000 RPM, it gets the job done. Of course, when I started my -8, the cordless drills that were available were much slower and wouldn't have been an option. I can drill any rivet out with this Dewalt and maintain complete control. It really is a game changer.
 
Before you scrap anything...

They make oops rivets, they should sell oops T-shirts with them. First, look at how many rivets that came out OK. Then, consider how many went awry, but you fixed the issue on the first attempt. You're doing great. Before you scrap anything - particularly something that means major rework, consider asking for another set of eyes. Do you have an experienced builder you can call? If you have a tech counselor, consider that a resource. He/she may tell you it's not as bad as you think. Or, you may learn another way to correct it. If scrap and rework is appropriate, you can write that check with more confidence because you didn't make that decision alone. And, there may be some things to think about with the rework that hadn't occurred to you. One of the great things about RV's is that there are a bunch flying. (Not mine, yet!) That means there are a bunch of people who have built them, and there are lots of people we can call on to look over a shoulder. Let's make some bumper stickers that say "One rivet at a time."
 
I used my Sioux drill for the vast majority of my build and then bought a Dewalt Cordless 20V drill and never looked back. The ability to accurately feather the trigger and not have to drag a air line across the shop makes all the difference.

I've generally liked using the Sioux for match drilling and such--even though it uses a bunch of air and has to be tethered, I find it light and nimble to work with, whereas my cordless is a bit bulkier (and it's not the highest quality, so I doubt it can achieve 2000rpm). But I think I'm learning that, like everything, there's a trade off.

When I first started, I only had a pneumatic squeezer, because I thought it was worth investing in the powerful tool. And I love that tool--for dimpling ribs, it's the cats meow. But I've since bought a Main Squeeze and end up doing most of the actual rivets with that--it's been much easier to control and I find it more than fast enough once I get it set up right. Both tools have a place, and I'm finding out where they work best...seems like I'm in the same spot with drills!
 
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