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Hartzell CS prop

C

Christopher Murphy

Well Known Member
I am tired of rain issues with my catto prop and it doesn't do as well at altitude as I would like so...

Looking at plunking down bucks for a CS prop for my 0320 powered RV-4/

curious about...

Battery in standard location?

Top speed you get with a CS prop and 160 hp

empty weight with the CS prop.

Thanks

CM
 
ww prop

It seems everyone I know that has one of the ww props has continous maint. issues. At OSH the Hartzel rep told me to wait for the composite blades for the smaller engines but I talked to them yesterday and they have no plans to produce composite blades for the smaller engines at this time.

I am not crazy about the added weight...

c
 
Chris,

I love my WW200RV prop on my -7. 38# with spinner. NO issues with it flying for 4 yrs and 260hrs.

Stephen Christopher has 1000hrs on WW. acro, formation and racing.
 
Have you considered the Sensenich ground adjusutible prop? Should solve the top speed, rain, and cg issues though obviously rate of climb will suffer a bit. I just took delivery on the 0360 version and it's beautiful with clear finish over the carbon and molded in LE protection.
 
400 hours on our WW 151H on the RV-3....not a single lick of trouble in all that time, and none anticipated based on others I know that are flying it.

Not cheap however.
 
Have you looked at the new Catto props with the nickel leading edges?

No need to slow down in the rain, light, and virtually no maintenance. Granted, they won't accelerate like a CS prop but they will cruise as fast, if not faster, than a CS prop.

About the only downside to the Catto, or any FP prop, is performing acro and formation work with planes that have CS props.
 
thanks for info

Thanks for the replies but my interest is in knowing about how other -4s with the hartzel or ww or MT perform with 160hp. What is your cg with that prop?
Did you keep the battery in the standard location?

I would love to try the sensi ground adjustable but it is too light. If I could get a steel extension maybe that would fix that issue but it is way too light for my cg. If it performs as well as their metal prop it is a sure winner.

I will check out WW but I couldn't even find any price info on their website.
Glad to hear someone is using it without mx issues.

The simplest and cheapest fix would be another catto with the nickle leading edge. Its sort of a shot in the dark to get the exact right prop. The one I have came to me way under pitched and was sent back. It is still under pitched for the type of flying I do now.

I do alot of acro and formation with the Rocky Mountain Renegades so a cs would be good for that but my airplane can do what I need to do with a fixed pitch prop for the most part. I could expand the acro routine some with the acceleration that the cs would provide.

I am just gathering info at this point.

PS
I haven't challenged anyone but I think my light RV4 could climb pretty darn close to if not better than an RV8 with the bigger engines,,,, I just have to do it at 125KIAS.

CM
 
wanted to see how fast I could go

LifeofReiley said:
CM, why did you pull the Sensenich off? It was treating you good. :)
Click to expand...

I was doing the airventure cup race and I wanted to see how fast I could go without the 2600 rpm restriction.

I bought the catto and sold the sensi for 1200 bucks..:eek:

If it didn't have that rpm restriction I never would have taken it off.

A new one is 3300$.... boy don't I feel stupid! lol

I am really interested in the ground adjustable but its just too light.

cm
 
ww for sale

"I have a 3 blade Whirlwind 151 with 180TT if you might be interested
Ron
[email protected]"

This gentleman sent me this email when I was looking for a c/s prop, he wants $3750. I don't need it because it fits a 320 and I have a 360.

I'm just sayin'
 
Constant speed/RV-4/battery location

I know you are asking for w/b of an RV-4 equipped with a Hartzell C/S.

I have an RV-4/ 0-360, Hartzell C/S with the battery in the baggage area. Not mounted above the floor, but mounted to the belly skin and protruding above the floor where cables are attached. I also converted to a fastback which added a small amount of weight in the back. The result is a -4 that weighs 1,065 empty and my center of gravity is 70.29 inches aft of datum.
Purchased a plastic battery box cover and attached to the floor with a hinge so access requires pulling a short pin and having full access to battery, and baggage area is hardly affected with the cover protecting all connections. Cables are under floor and come up through the floor adjacent to battery.

Works real well for me.

Jake Thiessen
Independence, OR
 
i have a 4 with a o-360 and c/s prop. the battery is in the stock location. empty weight is 995 lbs without paint. the c/g is out of the forward range empty, it requires a pilot weight of 212lbs to put it at the forward limit. plus side is that I can carry a 300lb passenger (if they would fit) and not exceed the rear limit.

putting the battery in the baggage area would put the C/G in a more rearward position of course.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
N262DF has a Hartzel CS.
Not sure of top speed.
I plan for 156 KTS at 24 squared.

Daddyman
Dues paid
 
Christopher Murphy said:
I would love to try the sensi ground adjustable but it is too light. If I could get a steel extension maybe that would fix that issue but it is way too light for my cg. If it performs as well as their metal prop it is a sure winner.
Click to expand...

A Landoll inertia ring bolted to the flywheel helps alleviate some of the issue with the light weight of the Sensenich GA prop. Mine performs great.
 
Prop me up...

Christopher Murphy said:
I am tired of rain issues with my catto prop and it doesn't do as well at altitude as I would like so...

Looking at plunking down bucks for a CS prop for my 0320 powered RV-4/

curious about...

Battery in standard location?

Top speed you get with a CS prop and 160 hp

empty weight with the CS prop.

Thanks

CM
Click to expand...

Hi Chris,
A question for the ages for certain. Having flown pretty much every iteration of the Four you could imagine, and a few beyond imagination, here is my dos centavos. This based on actual testing of a 150 HP 0-320 RV4 with Catto 2blade vs 160HP RV4 Hartzell and 180HP RV6"s one Hartzell BA and my 2blade Gen3 Catto.

Hartzell vs Catto (69.3 lbs vs 12 lbs) RV4. Worth it?New Catto 2 blade equals Hartzell BA 2 blade cruise RPM/MP in my own testing. In RV4 the extra weight up front helps if you like guy back seat riders and a bit better STOL, but not as much as you would think. Cost is almost 3 times more. Also, Hartzell doesn't" offer a blended airfoil for the 0-320, yet...more maintenance, much higher cost to repair.

Whirlwinds? Nice props with a McCauley hub design and well made blades. Good performance but still add over 50 lbs up front. Big bucks. Cost prohibitive for me.

Sensenich GA vs Catto. In my own test flying in 2 different but equal 0-320 RV9"s the Sensy easily equals or even exceeds the Catto above 5K. Below 5K the Catto has the edge at higher rpm. For you in CO, I think this would be a great prop.

MT. Expensive to buy, even more to fix. Great to have if you are sponsored in your Edge or Extra, not as much if you are funding it. Great performance though at around 60 installed pounds for the 3 blade. I flew a 2 blade 0-320 MT/CS 3blade for over 100 hours, loved it. $10,500 installed price.

Catto Top speed in my RV4 was slightly better than my Hartzell challenger as I could turn 2850 in level flight doing 175 KTAS with a 170HP 0-320. His 160HP at 2700 would consistently deliver 170 KTAS. My current 2blade Catto RVX will top out at 186KTAS at 2800 with an 0-360J2A, big tires, caked mud and grass stuck to the airframe. In a SBS RPM comparison with the 180HP Hartzell BA VAF flagship, our speeds/ RPM/MP were identical througout the flight envelope.

My advice would be to save the $$$ for a LyCon overhaul someday, have Craig install nickel LEP on your current prop or trade it in for a Gen 3, or Sensy GA composite and press on.

V/R
Smokey
www.iamanet.org
 
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good info

Thanks Smokey,

I really like the Sensi GA prop but I am having trouble finding a solution to the lack of weight up front with that prop.

I talked to sabre and he has a steel spacer that would be perfect but they don't want to run steel on their machines.. ( it needs more machining) It seems to me that if Sensenich would offer a steel or brass spacer they could sell more props as I think that would be the perfect prop for the RV4)

I won't stick with my current catto... as you mentioned it is great at lower altitudes but as I find myself up at 11 or 12k often at it just doesn't work up there.

What I'd really like to hear is about WB issues... battery location etc.

Thanks for the info...

CM
 
Thomas Velvick posted that he had a Landoll ring he'd sell back in July, you might try to contact him to see if he still has it and still is interested in selling: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=898634&postcount=3

I've got a buddy with a machine shop that was once upon a time interested in re-creating the inertia rings but then backed out from liability worries. I spoke with him last weekend again and he's once again warming up to the idea of possibly making them.
 
Christopher Murphy said:
Thanks Smokey,

I really like the Sensi GA prop but I am having trouble finding a solution to the lack of weight up front with that prop.

I talked to sabre and he has a steel spacer that would be perfect but they don't want to run steel on their machines.. ( it needs more machining) It seems to me that if Sensenich would offer a steel or brass spacer they could sell more props as I think that would be the perfect prop for the RV4)

I won't stick with my current catto... as you mentioned it is great at lower altitudes but as I find myself up at 11 or 12k often at it just doesn't work up there.

What I'd really like to hear is about WB issues... battery location etc.

Thanks for the info...

CM
Click to expand...

CM,

Saber machined me a 22 lb steel for my set-up. Absoultely a perfect solution. I take what your saying is he has a design but no longer wants to make them. Heck, have him send you the drawing, there are a lot of machine shops that will whip one up for you. :) Good Luck!
 
Christopher Murphy said:
I won't stick with my current catto... as you mentioned it is great at lower altitudes but as I find myself up at 11 or 12k often at it just doesn't work up there.

CM
Click to expand...

I'm not questioning your observed high altitude performance (or lack thereof), but are you sure the issue isn't the length/pitch of your particular Catto? It's my understanding your fellow RV-4 driver Sabre who also operates at high altitudes has a slightly different Catto and seems to love it.

Just wondering why the difference (and my interest is more than casual since have been considering a Catto purchase).
 
bolts

Rielly,

What bolts did you use? When I talked to Sabre, that was a big question mark too. Are you running the Sensi GA with a steel spacer? What airplane?

CM
 
good question

precession said:
I'm not questioning your observed high altitude performance (or lack thereof), but are you sure the issue isn't the length/pitch of your particular Catto? It's my understanding your fellow RV-4 driver Sabre who also operates at high altitudes has a slightly different Catto and seems to love it.

Just wondering why the difference (and my interest is more than casual since have been considering a Catto purchase).
Click to expand...

Precesion,

Craig built the prop as I asked, for top performance at about 1000ft DA, at about 2800 rpm. I used it to race my airplane in the air venture cup. It was under pitched at first so I sent it back and he modified it ( as best I could tell) by making it wider chord on the inboard third of the prop. It runs very fast at the lower altitudes.

I haven't looked at many of his props but the characteristics of this prop are 68 dia. 2 inches less than the sensi I had. The outer 25% of the blades have a very flat camber and the prop is very thin out there. I think that is why it just spins up without pulling the airplane at the higher DAs that I fly at. Sabres plane can scoot away from me pretty easily and has better acceleration on take off. I don't race any more so I want to go back to a more conventional prop with rain protection. It was my intention to use a C/S prop when I built the airplane but I compromised with my funds and bought a new engine and a new sensi metal fixed pitch instead. Actually it was a good combo except for the 2600 rpm restriction. If I wasn't doing airshows and formation with it I would probably go back to that prop.

We timed the airplane at about -200 DA a few years ago with the catto, and got 222mph on a 2 way run. It still had more throttle but I didn't want to push it any faster.

Chris M
 
Christopher Murphy said:
Rielly,

What bolts did you use? When I talked to Sabre, that was a big question mark too. Are you running the Sensi GA with a steel spacer? What airplane?

CM
Click to expand...

Saber # b97/16 70d, prop is a Catto w/ NLE. Send me your email addy and I can scan the invoice copy to you. RV7A
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the reply

Thanks for the interesting explanation, Chris.

Sounds like you will have all the adjustment and freedom (from rain worries) you want once you get your CS or adjustable prop in place. Good luck.
 
prop debate

I was going to pull the trigger on putting a deposit down on a standard Hartzell prop today for my -8, converting from my FP Sensenich.
My other idea was to convert to a 2 blade Catto. I also live in Colo and fly mostly at the higher altitudes.
After reading this thread I am now having second thoughts about what to do!
More sleepless nights coming up !
 
decisions decisions

Been there done that. I'm a big Catto fan having had several of his props on previous RV's and very satisfied with product, customer service, and curb appeal if that means anything.

However, seeing that you are a tandem driver and high altitudes are your norm, I think you are making the best decision by going with CS. This is assuming you have a CS friendly engine.

Good luck on your deal and let us know what you do.

CJ

redhawk said:
I was going to pull the trigger on putting a deposit down on a standard Hartzell prop today for my -8, converting from my FP Sensenich.
My other idea was to convert to a 2 blade Catto. I also live in Colo and fly mostly at the higher altitudes.
After reading this thread I am now having second thoughts about what to do!
More sleepless nights coming up !
Click to expand...
 
Hi there,
I've got a C/S prop on an IO 320. My weight and balance is fine, yet the battery is in the baggage compartment.
Climb is outstanding, cruise at 24.5 squared is 158 mph.

Daddyman
Dues paid
 
thanks for the info

daddyman said:
Hi there,
I've got a C/S prop on an IO 320. My weight and balance is fine, yet the battery is in the baggage compartment.
Climb is outstanding, cruise at 24.5 squared is 158 mph.

Daddyman
Dues paid
Click to expand...

This is the info I was hoping to see. I was really interested in the C/S prop but to be honest, its alot of money to spend on a 40k airplane and I don't want to move the battery or do the other mods I would have to do so I am getting close to pulling the trigger on a sensenich GA prop.

I don't have a manifold press gage in my plane but I was cruising my metal sensenich at 2600rpm at 9500 at 165kts true airspeed. Thats considerably faster than 158mph.

This decision has been agaonizing for me.. but I like the way my airplane flys and I think the GA prop will let me tweak it just right, Plus add rain protection which was a big concern.

My catto will be for sale once I am satisfied with the new prop.

Thanks again for the info.

cm
 
Correction:
158 KTS. 24.5 square

Did not recheck top level speed today because it was a bit turbulent.
Daddyman
 
Christopher Murphy said:
This is the info I was hoping to see. I was really interested in the C/S prop but to be honest, its alot of money to spend on a 40k airplane and I don't want to move the battery or do the other mods I would have to do so I am getting close to pulling the trigger on a sensenich GA prop.

I don't have a manifold press gage in my plane but I was cruising my metal sensenich at 2600rpm at 9500 at 165kts true airspeed. Thats considerably faster than 158mph.

This decision has been agaonizing for me.. but I like the way my airplane flys and I think the GA prop will let me tweak it just right, Plus add rain protection which was a big concern.

My catto will be for sale once I am satisfied with the new prop.

Thanks again for the info.

cm
Click to expand...

You will want to install a manifold pressure gauge to properly adjust your new prop.
 
explain

Gasman

I know how the MP can tell me how much power I am making. I could see how it might tell if I over pitched the prop.

What would be the procedure for using MP to adjust my prop?
Cm
 
Speed update:
3/21/2015
189 KTS indicated.
Calc. correction = 201 MPH.
Level 24.5 squared.
Daddyman
 
I am puzzled by the statements of Catto props not doing well at altitude. At 2700 RPM's, my RV-8 with Catto 3 blade generates exactly the same true airspeed at 8000 DA as it does at 16,000 DA.
 
catto prop

brad walton said:
I am puzzled by the statements of Catto props not doing well at altitude. At 2700 RPM's, my RV-8 with Catto 3 blade generates exactly the same true airspeed at 8000 DA as it does at 16,000 DA.
Click to expand...

Please don't take my comments to apply to any other catto prop....this prop was designed to go fast at low altitude and it does.
My prop is a custom design to race at lower altitudes. At higher altitudes I can increase from 2500 to 2700 with almost no increase in airspeed. It performs great a lower altitudes.

I have a hard time believing you get the same tas at 16k and 8k

I wanted the rain protection and I think the sensi GA will let me get the exact pitch I want plus it has rain protection. If it performs as well as the metal prop did without the RPM limit I will be VERY happy with it.

CM
 
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no spacer or bolts in box

well, I was all pumped up to install the new prop when I got home... but there was no spacer and no through bolts in the box... packing list says they should be in the box.... wonder what kind of saga this might turn out to be..

cm
 
Christopher Murphy said:
well, I was all pumped up to install the new prop when I got home... but there was no spacer and no through bolts in the box... packing list says they should be in the box.... wonder what kind of saga this might turn out to be..

cm
Click to expand...

Charlie at Sensenich was very helpful with this matter...
cant wait to install it and see how it performs...

Anyone have one on an Rv4 160HP that can share what pitch setting they are using?
Cm
 
Christopher Murphy said:
Charlie at Sensenich was very helpful with this matter...
cant wait to install it and see how it performs...

Anyone have one on an Rv4 160HP that can share what pitch setting they are using?
Cm
Click to expand...

Not an RV-4 but I'm running the #5 pitch pin setting on my RV-6 w/ 160hp and it's a good all-around pitch setting for me. The #6 setting was a bit too course pitched for me in the hot Texas summer heat.


EDIT: I've not been re-using the Nordlock washers more than 3 times. Without any provision for safety wire, I'm a bit leery of re-using the lockwashers more than that.

I've found about the cheapest place to buy them is Zoro Tools.

The Nordlock part number is #1531, sometimes also referred to as NL12SP.
Zoro's part number is #G4344672.

Webpage here, you have to search for them by part number, they do not show up when you just try to browse for Nordlocks on their website.
http://www.zoro.com/i/G4344672/

They used to be $14.97 for a package of 8, now they're $16.98, still not too bad. I try to keep 2 or 3 sets on hand just in case I get an urge to try a pitch change again.

Also, you might want to replace the #10 phillips screws that hold the front spinner bulkhead onto the hub with screws or AN3 bolts that have heads drilled for safety wire. The tiny Nordlocks for those will come loose. I switched to AN3 drilled head bolts, AN970 "fender" washers, safety wired the bolts, and used loctite blue on them. No further issues with the two front bulkhead bolts coming loose again :)
 
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Catto vs Sensy Comp

Christopher Murphy said:
Charlie at Sensenich was very helpful with this matter...
cant wait to install it and see how it performs...

Anyone have one on an Rv4 160HP that can share what pitch setting they are using?
Cm
Click to expand...

Chris,
First, congrats on the Sensy composite. I had a chance to fly one on Saint Aviation's RV9 and it really impressed me. Jesse had the 150HP 0-320 RV9 pitched at 4.

Catto props...
With one or two Catto hours (3000) behind me and having put the very first one on an RV4 (mine), I have a pretty good database of performance based on 4 different models of Craig's product over 20 years and 2 RV's. I always had an MP gauge and used the number 48 to judge performance. (first two digits of RPM/MP total=48 for 75% power at any altitude)

Pre-Gen3 Catto props generated their best performance at higher RPM's (above 2500). In fact, I pitched my first 0-320 Catto prop to allow rated RPM (2700) at 12,500. This in turn allowed the prop to spin up to 2900/WOT at S.L. No worries, Craig guarantees them up to 3200. As far as Catto props not working well above 10K, not true. They work well if your RPM can be maintained at rated RPM. Higher RPM at High and Low altitudes gave me better STOL performance and decent speed below 5K, and 170KTAS above 12,000. Slight excursions above 2700 to outrun higher HP RV's wasn't a problem :) and with balancing, turbine smooth! I always climbed above 10K to go long distance so it was the best of both worlds. Gen3 however changed everything.

Gen 3: The airfoil, blade design and pitch combined with a nickel leading edge protection optimize performance at lower RPM across the board. My RVX Gen3 comes into it's own at 2450 with a nice efficiency "sweet spot" at 2150. (4.5GPH/125KTAS) Between 2500 and 2700, the gain is slight at best and above 10K, 2500 is a sweet spot for performance. A much improved design combined with nickel leading edge protection is a home run overall. (They are FAA certified on the Carbon Cub.)

Overall, both are great props. I am obviously biased to the Catto since they have given me 3000 hours of great and safe performance. the Sensy obviously has an edge of being adjustable, a great option and probably the future of efficient, budgetary and flexible RV flying.

V/R
Smokey
 
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good info

Smokey,
I dont want to knock catto. My prop does exactly what I wanted it to do. My mission has changed and I wanted rain protection. I know my metal sensi was better at 2600rpm than this prop is and the sensenich people tell me this GA prop is even better. This catto really goes at 2700 or higher. Its high alt performance wasnt as good as I would like. I will hang on to this catto prop for awhile because one nener know when I might want to go really fast again...:)

I cant wait to try it out but I was shorted the spacer and bolts so Im waiting for those.
 
Mucho Bueno GA...

Christopher Murphy said:
Smokey,
I dont want to knock catto. My prop does exactly what I wanted it to do. My mission has changed and I wanted rain protection. I know my metal sensi was better at 2600rpm than this prop is and the sensenich people tell me this GA prop is even better. This catto really goes at 2700 or higher. Its high alt performance wasnt as good as I would like. I will hang on to this catto prop for awhile because one nener know when I might want to go really fast again...:)

I cant wait to try it out but I was shorted the spacer and bolts so Im waiting for those.
Click to expand...

No worries Chris, I can totally relate. :)
My first 3 Catto props had no LEP and the old/original prototype airfoil. I spent many hours fixing rain damage or applying clear tape to the leading edge. The 1st was a test prop for Craig's data and didn't really get going until 2600. Then it really got going! They performed very well at high RPM's especially around 2800 where the 0-320 is really humming. As you said, rain really did a number on them.
The Gen 3 really is a different animal. I have been really pleased with it in 500 hours and the nickel leading edge and new finish are bulletproof.

BTW, I called my friend Jesse at Saint Aviation this morning to ask him questions about his Sensy GA. He uses a 4 pitch as he is always loaded with 2 big boys in FL heat. I really liked the power band when I flew it. 2100 static, 2300 climb, 2750 WOT. Very, very smooth...


V/R
Smokey
 
Sensenich GA prop

Made first flight with the new GA prop

Pitch pin 6. Im impressed so far but its its still under pitched so going to try number 7 before i really test for numbers.

Its,smooth but I noticed a,little shudder when i aggressively pull the power back at speed. I want to fly it more to check that out.

Total wt of new prop and hardware 24,2lbs
weight of old prop and crush plate 37lbs.
we are goung to reweigh the airplane Friday for a new W&B.
Cm
 
W&B new prop

We weighed the airplane with the new prop. The empty weight cg moved 2 inches aft. I have flown some. Acro and it handles ok but I haven't spun it yet. I did do a number of stalls and the pitch break is almost negligible so I didn't put in the rudder to spin.

Takeoff acceleration is remarkably better. tas at about 8000da was 162kts at 2600 rpm. ( I'm sure I was seeing higher speeds at lower pitch setting 6 but I only made one flight at that setting)

I reclocked the prop as per sensenichs direction for the metal props and it eliminated the vibration band it had from about 1500 to 1800 rpm

Cm
 
Senseniche Prop

My brother and I have the Senseniche ground adjustable prop on our 160 HP -4 and are very satisfied with it. It is fast and rain does not affect it. We had a few issues with the Hammer Head spinner Senseniche offers. But Senseniche took care of it. The plane is not quite as fast as our RV-7A with a 180 HP and a Hartzell, but cruise speeds are essentially the same. Rate of climb is excellent. The -4 has a tendency to a rearward CG, so we had to install the 11 pound ring on the flywheel/starter gear.
 
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