RE: Risk Management Idea?????

RE: Risk Management Idea?????

I wrote the following on the night ops thread thus high jacking my own thread. I thought this was important enough to have it's own tread......

Jerry wrote in another thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=50617&page=3

"My recommendation for not allowing this to happen again is that all new pilots be adopted by an Experienced pilot for at least 100 hours. The newbie should be asked to call his mentor before any flight to review his plans. I have lost friends under similiar circumstances, and now make it a priority to mentor new pilots. CFI's could recommend the mentor and explain the reason. Another recommendation is for the new pilots to fly with experienced pilots as ofter as is feasible, there's a lot of learning to do for all of us."

What a fantastic idea. Maybe just maybe we as a group can mentor each other. I sure know a few folks on this group that I would REALLY like to have advice and consent.......for me I am lucky to have some great local friend that will keep me in as low a risk level as possible.....

So is there a possiblility of a VAF Newbie Adoption Agency

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A ... BUZZ ... N74BZ ... Flying

I have safely reached the 100 hr mark.

I have flown 40 since I finished training in Oct 2008. My instructor told me to call him anytime I had questions. His number is on my cell. I also fly with a 1000+ hr pilot of an RV-9A. His number is also on my cell. I wanted it this way. I don't know if all new pilots want to ask questions thinking someone will make fun of them.

The first time I took my family up in the 172L, I was running late getting back. I had gotten a sign off in the rental that morning. Cockpit lighting was much different(lacking) than the 172S that I had trained in! I always packed a small flashlight since my night training flight a few weeks prior. This came in handy for the wife to light the a/s indicator up for me on landing. My fuel calculations said we would have plenty left, but when the needles started dancing...you just never know in a new plane. We had high overcast so no stars/moon. My transponder and intercom system was intermittent(was not earlier that day). I had not remained above the MEF like I had been taught, so I got a good close look at a 1,223' country radio station antenna(lighted at the time, unlit right now with NOTAM). I didn't read notams for that return flight, but we did listen to part of a country song. I was not too lost, just follow the river and the lights of several cities. It was my first night flight in that area. I did not make a standard pattern entry. Class D was over and on three sides of my intended field. ATC was very understanding and could tell from my voice I was very new at all of this. I ask for a "heading" to the airport and they provided me with a vector. My wife ask me,"What is the vector Victor?". Was not funny at the time. (We watch Airplane every year, just like Christmas vacation movies.) The runway was 3000' with trees on both ends and 1/3 of the runway lights out. Maybe that was just tree limbs blocking my glide path.(Just kidding)

Not a pleasant experience. I learned alot. Ordered my Garmin 496 with XM weather the next day! I have ask many more questions since and will not fly the family at night until I have 100+ hrs on the RV-10. I made it back that time using some of what I learned from a good CFI and a whole lot of luck. I have watched several training videos and read many books since. Now, I pay very close attention to the mistakes that other pilots tell me they have made so that I may not make the same mistake. There are thousands of ways to end a flight in the wrong way. Let's all learn from each other as many ways as possible to prevent that from happening. I AM just an average pilot- 60 hrs for my ppl. All of the above bothered me for awhile knowing what could have happened, but I am better and safer for it now.

Please, would some of you experienced pilots take those new guys for a ride once in awhile and tell them to ask alot of questions. Give them your phone numbers. It may just save their life and they will appreciate you very much as I do my instructor and flying friend!

What an incredibly good idea!!

My number is 478 625 3586 and I'll ride with anyone at any time for free. Now that I have 5 hours on my -10 and a dozen landings, I'm -4, -6,--6A,-7, -7A, -9A and 10 qualified.

Be my guest,...I'm at 2J3.

Kind regards,

Class Act Pierre

pierre smith said:

My number is 478 625 3586 and I'll ride with anyone at any time for free. Now that I have 5 hours on my -10 and a dozen landings, I'm -4, -6,--6A,-7, -7A, -9A and 10 qualified.

Be my guest,...I'm at 2J3.

Kind regards,

Click to expand...

Anybody that would give there number out to the world to help anybody, anytime has it going on in my book!

listen

sahrens said:

... But in the military I have to listen to the briefing officer. If you call a friend or CFI, you have to be ready to hear "Don't go" and then not go.

Click to expand...

Very true - listen to your peers, they don't have the same emotional attachment to the mission, and will usually give you good advice.

I recently retired from the Air Force after 22 years of flying fighters. I managed to survive that and a prior civillian stint as an instructor/air taxi pilot with a lot of help from friends and supervisors. Mentoring can be akin to a supervisor of flying or dispatcher--someone charged with overseeing the flying operation that's keeping track of weather, mission requirements, etc. It's a great way to mitigate risk. Operational risk management is another great tool. The King Schools produce a very good risk management program that spells out the basics that I would recommend to any aviator.

I guess you get more conservative as you get older, something about the reality of mortality setting in (or maybe the math makes sense and you realize how much luck you've already used up!); but there are certain basic things that help with the decision matrix. The basic rule is: "if there is a doubt, there is no doubt." The second set of rules are YOUR limits. Set 'em, adjust 'em as you gain experience, live by 'em and always refer to the basic rule. Here's some examples:

1. Minimum wx for an approach (300/1?).
2. No VFR ops at night.
3. Cross-wind limits (10, 15, 20 knots?).
4. No flight into forecast icing conditions.
5. No IFR with less than 2 operable NAV systems.
6. Minimum runway length (1500, 2000, 3000'?).
7. No night or IMC without a parachute.
8. Operable fuel-flow/totalizer (or increase your reserve requirement).
9. Never fly below reserve fuel unless you are diverting or it's an emergency.
10. Develop a minimum equipment list.
11. Don't exceed a 10, 11, 12...hour duty day (i.e., if you've already been awake for 12 hours, do you really need to be climbing into the cockpit [likely at night]?).
12. Always compute performance and weight and balance data.
13. Never exceed designer recommended limits.
14. Always confirm fuel load during pre-flight.
15. Minimum altitudes (500 AGL for normal ops, 3000 for acro, 5000 for spins, etc.?)...Maximum 10,000' MSL without O2?
16. Fill in the blank...

The list can be as long or short as you like. You're not being paid to fly your RV, it's your call. Do limits like this impinge on the utility of the airplane? Over the course of a lifetime of flying, not likely. Will there be moments of disappointment, yup. Will you make the wrong call to cancel, yup. The math will work out fine--there are plenty of nice days.

There's a popular misconception that the most hazardous part of flying is the drive to the airport. Statistically that's not true depending on pilot qualifications and class of aircraft.

All airplanes present a challenge when you don't have experience in type. I'm new to the RV community, we bought our -4 last Spring and I'm still learning.

Cheers,

Vac

My background: 1800 hours of civillian instructor time, 3200 hours in the F-4C/E/F/G and F-15C, Fighter Weapons School grad, USAF flight examiner, operational test pilot, supervisor of flying, squadron commander, and RV-4 nugget with about 30 hours or so in type (i.e., inexperienced--my buddy IP keeps me honest). Airline Transport Pilot & Certified Flight Instructor, Instrument and Multi-engine. Best airplane ever built? The one I'm flying of course...happy to share what I've learned, drop a PM or call (850) 974-4472 any time.

RE:Thanks

Hi Vac

Welcome to the VAF.....

I really appreciate your list and your willingness to share via phone that all important safety net for all of us here at VAF....

Thanks

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... BUZZ ... N74BZ ... Flying with more respect!!!!!

Freedom and Responsibility!

Flying is all about freedom and responsibility. Pressures to limit them for perceived safer skies always strike me as a bad idea.

Bob Axsom

Welcome aboard, Vac...

...I just sincerely hope that all of us realize just what an incredible amount of experience and very good advice is available here. The list of highly experienced and professional experts here, including many ex-Military, airline, charter and corporate pilots like Vac, Smoky, Doug and many others I forget, is immeasurable.

Not using their voluntary resource, borders on stupid. Where else can you find so many free advisors? Take down their numbers and use the free advice when go-no-go decisions come up.

The best,

Self Discipline

Vac is talking about personal minimums. Minimums are personal, but they are worthless without self discipline.... Paul Harvey said it best, "Self Government won't work without self discipline." Setting personal minimums without the self discipline to adhere to them is a bad idea, and flying without self discipline is a really bad idea....

All of us need to look in the mirror and acknowledge that very few of us are as good as we think we are, or we would like to be....

The Disney Institute teaches this, "We judge ourselves based on our intentions, we judge others based on their actions."

None of us intend to crash so we believe we are safe....

Others judge us based on our actions, and they may have a different perception.

In the warbird world we have encouraged pilot groups to get together and discuss their operations among peers. Identify the operations in your group that pose the greatest risk to your local operations....

This has to be an honest assesment, not a cheerleading session or it is counter productive.... Everyone sitting around telling each other how good everyone is, is not what this is about.

This is the program. Gather a small group of pilot peers that you know and trust to be honest. Get together and identify the greatest global risk to your local operation. Rate the risk, and rate the reward on a 1 to 10 scale. If the risk is higher than the reward, stop the activity. If the reward outweighs the risks, discuss ways to mitigate the risks....

Let me give you an example.

Formation flying is a high risk activity. Lets say it is a 7

Formation flying is fun, improves my aircraft control skills and is rewarding. I will give it an 8

So I choose to do it.

But i want to mitigate the risks. Here are ways I mitigate that risks.

I don't fly with groups of strangers.
I try to avoid flying in mass formations and if I do, I fly in the back.
I give myself extra room on the landing in blind airplanes.
I don't do formation take-offs in airplanes that I cant afford to fix. Nothing above a T-6.

Clearly, others will disagree with my mitigating strategies, and that is fine. They are mine, each person can make their own, but a discussion about the mitigants with peers you trust is a much better way to make decisions about risks than in the heat of the moment at the briefing.

So if we can use peer counsel to set reasonable personal minimums and have the self discipline to adhere to them we will have less dead friends. That is all easy to say, and much harder to do.....

I will add an offer to Pierre's. I speak about risk to several warbird groups, and to the MN RV group last spring. If you have an RV group meeting and will buy me some rocket fuel, or God forbid, an airline ticket or buddy pass, I will come and speak to your group.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
dougr(at)petroblend.c0m

fstringham7a said:

I wrote the following on the night ops thread thus high jacking my own thread. I thought this was important enough to have it's own tread......

Jerry wrote in another thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=50617&page=3

"My recommendation for not allowing this to happen again is that all new pilots be adopted by an Experienced pilot for at least 100 hours. The newbie should be asked to call his mentor before any flight to review his plans. I have lost friends under similiar circumstances, and now make it a priority to mentor new pilots. CFI's could recommend the mentor and explain the reason. Another recommendation is for the new pilots to fly with experienced pilots as ofter as is feasible, there's a lot of learning to do for all of us."

What a fantastic idea. Maybe just maybe we as a group can mentor each other. I sure know a few folks on this group that I would REALLY like to have advice and consent.......for me I am lucky to have some great local friend that will keep me in as low a risk level as possible.....

So is there a possiblility of a VAF Newbie Adoption Agency

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A ... BUZZ ... N74BZ ... Flying

Click to expand...

It is a good idea.

But its success would be dependent to how open the new pilot is to continuing his aviation education. A huge problem with some personalities is accepting a premise that there is more to be learned.

Smart young pilots are already tuned into what keeps old pilots alive (or what has kept them alive to this point - there are no guarantees).

The "know it alls" are not interested in anything but reinforcing what they believe.

Better information

Bob Axsom said:

Flying is all about freedom and responsibility. Pressures to limit them for perceived safer skies always strike me as a bad idea.

Bob Axsom

Click to expand...

I am not sure anyone is advocating pressure to limit flying. I know that after 34 years of Army helicopters in day, night, wx and NVGs flown all over the world; the pressure to fly created by me is my greatest danger. We all can see the wx, fuel or whatever else in the best of terms if it gets us where we want to go.
Having someone else tell me this flight may not be the best idea gives me more information to make a better decision.

Here is my phione number to add to the list. 707-695-3151

Scott Ahrens
N418BG (reserved)
empennage
QB wings
fuselage in progress

risk management

I love the idea of a local mentor, RV check pilot etc.
I think.
It takes a big person to say, " I don't know everything I need to know to fly my plane safely, every time."
Where I live, we are lucky to have at least one Rv check pilot, but some areas may not be so fortunate. I've never invited him for a 'ride' or asked for a checkout, and I'm sure it's because I don't feel confident that I'm as proficient as I should be.
Since I bought my plane in '07, I spent the first year getting checked out, about 10 hours of dual, and 10+ solo, but I didn't feel I was good enough to take passengers.
this year, I also did about 20 hours, but never reached the level of proficiency that I was comfortable with.
In many ways, I am waiting to become an accident statistic.
If I can't fly more, then I should really stop, sell the plane, get a bike or whatever!
how many of you low-time guys, who don't fly much in the winter, have kids and a yard and cars that need fixin', etc. etc......can say the same thing!?

....perhaps these are also some of the pilots we should be targeting to reduce the accident stats.

Unrecognized mentors

After reading a few replies, I would say that I've had the benefit of some 'unrecognized mentors' in flying experience. One is a good friend who did his PP and other ratings in the '90s, bought a Turbo 210, then a King Air and finally a Citation. Before the first purchase it was rentals. Throughout this period he invited me numerous times, and we did some business travel together, too. He announced unceremoniously on several occassions that we were not making a flight, or instead hired a pilot with more experience to fly us. I never complained, we drove several times, or stayed home. Business was never of such urgency that we flew when he didn't feel the comfort level was acceptable. Business isn't what it was then and he no longer owns a plane, quit flying, and we still tell each other stories of 'those days."

When I started flying again after a 33 yr lapse, finally completing my PP in 2005, his example of decision making worked as a guide. Today I did my BFR after 18 months of no flying - because I couldn't keep up with moving, remodelling, work, family and other priorities without being a marginal pilot. Now I'm ready to return, and give it the attention it deserves for my safety, the safety of others, and the reputation of the GA/E-AB community.

I really enjoy flying with another more experienced pilot and then having a chance to discuss issues. Of course, if they have an RV- that's a level above and beyond. Thanks to all those who can and do share their experience in untold, and often unrecognized ways.

I am currently blessed to have several mentors at our airport and have already learned quite a bit from them. Recognizing early on that my -8 was capable of getting me into trouble quickly due to my limited amount of flying experience, I have apporoached these gents and asked for their guidance. In return for their advice, I have promised them that they will not hurt my ego or feelings by telling me when I am doing something wrong or adding risk to operations. Already, the feedback has been most helpful. They have shown me ways to improve my aircraft, improve my taildragger landings, and how to apply real-world weather judgement.
In return for their counsel, they get to see aviation once again through the eyes of a novice. I know that they must crack up with some of the simple questions that I ask, but I can count on a well-reasoned response every time. If I learn enough fast enough, I may even live long enough to become a mentor for the next generation of aviators and pass it on...

On the other hand

I'm going to be the jerk here, but..........I would be careful who you pick as a mentor. Just because a guy has an RV doesn't mean you should take advice from them. My job involves training for, studying and responding to aircraft accidents. Yet, I know pilots that I would not let walk my dog, let alone take flying advice from. Some guys I know I refuse to fly with. They make me nervous.


Before you flame me, understand that I constantly study, go to every safety seminar that I can, and hang out/fly with instructors on a regular basis.

Mike,
You are not being a jerk. Your point is valid.
My "mentors" come from a variety of backgrounds. The one common theme is that they all have many thousands of hours in their logbooks which means that they have the abiltity to stay alive.

They come from a mix of private pilots, airline pilots, military pilots and glider pilots and include a CFI. What amazes me about the group is that in spite of the variety of backgrounds, the answers generally match up from one to the other. The other thing that is important to me is that they lead by example...in other words, they don't tell me one thing then go out themselves and do another...

Mentor pool?

Don't know if this is a good idea or not, just thought I'd throw it out there for thought fodder. May not even be feasible, but......

What if the really experienced pilots out there, that are willing to give of your time and epertise, (like some of you guys have already indicated a willingness to do, thank you) were to form a "mentor pool".

And what if Doug were to set up a new forum section with the same title where other pilots could go if they had any questions or concerns about a particular flight or other flight concerns to get that personal experienced touch.

The "mentor pilots" could maybe set up the forum to forward the new posts to their Blackberrys etc., so that a "poster" would get a quick response from whoever was available at the time.

The "poster" could post his phone number if he needed imediate response or maybe there's a way to provide "mentor's" with a list of "poster's" cell numbers so everyone's phone numbers aren't flying around all over the place.

Course then you'd need a way to let other "mentors" know when a "poster" has been helped so that all the "mentors" don't respond to the same post. Maybe a quick "I've got this one" reply by the "FRM" (first responding mentor)

I, for one, though not flying for another year anyway, would really appreciate such help. I would even keep a running "Currency List" that I would paste on to each mentor request so the "FRM" would have my background information to help in his response.

OK, maybe I'm getting carried away here. Whaddaya think Doug?

Thread killer

Wow! I killed the thread!

So just ignore the dumb idea and carry on!!

...My "mentors" all have many thousands of hours in their logbooks which means that they have the ability to stay alive...

Click to expand...

(Author changed to protect the innocent.)

While this is one way to select a mentor, I have flown with many 1000+ hour pilots that I have simply elected to not fly with again. In fact, I don't even want to be in the air when they are up.

These are the guys who will just show up on your wing, strafe you, buzz on by, and do a number of other things that only boggles the mind.

They are alive because of a combination of skill and luck, not because of their decision making skills. These mentors might suggest you depart in marginal weather because they feel they could make it but never take into account YOUR ability.

Be careful in who you select (and ride with), the life you save may be your own.

And remember, on person's minimums could be another's death sentence.

GOOD Advice from my CFI...

The day I finished my PPL check ride in 1993, my flight instructor was there when the designated examiner finished the paper work and handed me my first certificate. My flight instructor said to me "Now you have a license to learn." That thought has always been with me every time I take off on a new flight to anywhere.

We keep doing this thing called flying in a quest for knowledge and joy it can provide seeing the world from a different perspective. I listen to the retired airline pilots who don't want anything to do with general aviation and understand those particular pilots don't feel comfortable in anything with just ONE engine that bounces at the slightest turbulence. I also know that pilots with a genuine passion for flying any and every airplane they can, have something to share. I have several ex-military pilots who love to get in my RV-9A and get some stick time.

Let's be safe out there...