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What ELT

Bret,
I too am using the Kannad 406 AF. But don't make the same mistake I made. Battery life on a new unit is good for 6 years. By the time I was finished with my build, I had to buy replacement batteries, because they had expired. Another $200:mad:
 
N319BC said:
Bret,
I too am using the Kannad 406 AF. But don't make the same mistake I made. Battery life on a new unit is good for 6 years. By the time I was finished with my build, I had to buy replacement batteries, because they had expired. Another $200:mad:
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why is this battery so expensive.....its not an 8D starting a dozer....
 
Bret - this battery is so expensive because it forms part of a TSO'd piece of equipment. We can't go and buy Duracels any more. The 406 ELT's transmit a whopping 5 watts, and have to be able to do so across the entire temperature range. This compares with 100 milliwatts for the old 121.5 units. That's why the 406's need fancy lithium batteries, and why we can only buy the approved parts listed in the 406 ELT installation manual. The batteries themselves won't cost nearly what we pay, but somebody has to pay some markup to keep the manufacturers in business.
 
I installed an ELT brand 406 ELT. I chose this one because the airplane had no other GPS and this had one built in. Plus I definitely wanted the 406 capability.

One thing that this unit has that's unique, awkward and draggy is a huge antenna, 10" long and 4" high. Had to find a place for it. Another thing worth considering is that this unit has no 121.5 transmitter. It's strictly a 406 unit.

The installation was fine but it turned out that the box itself was bad. Before learning that, the company asked me to return the antenna for a check. I feel that their after-market service was good - better than their checking units out during manufacture was.

If I were doing it again I'd probably buy a Pointer Skyhunter 406 instead.

Dave
 
I'm using ACK Technologies ELT. Not sure about other ELTs but theirs also has a GPS link for faster locating.
 
Bret - Have you considered putting in the cheapest unit to meet regs and then go with a personal 406 capable unit?

I am a firm believer that there are two kinds of RV accidents; those you walk away from, and those you don't. If I can walk, or crawl, I can activate the personal beacon. If I can't, well, it doesn't matter how long it takes them to find my body.
I am sure this is arguable. It is only my opinion, which is always subject to change. However, I can not think of an RV accident that involved someone being located and saved by an ELT mounted in the aircraft, but perhaps others can chime in.
 
JonJay said:
Bret - Have you considered putting in the cheapest unit to meet regs and then go with a personal 406 capable unit?

I am a firm believer that there are two kinds of RV accidents; those you walk away from, and those you don't. If I can walk, or crawl, I can activate the personal beacon. If I can't, well, it doesn't matter how long it takes them to find my body.
I am sure this is arguable. It is only my opinion, which is always subject to change. However, I can not think of an RV accident that involved someone being located and saved by an ELT mounted in the aircraft, but perhaps others can chime in.
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A couple of comments - I've made them here before. Sorry to be so frank, but tell me, do you carry life insurance? Will you leave behind family members who might give a hoot about your well-being? If you answered "yes" to either of those questions, you want your carcass to be found quickly. 406 is the only way to go, if for no reason than to help your family access your life insurance funds more quickly.

With respect to carrying a PLB, that's a great idea IN ADDITION to a 406 ELT. While you're at it, file a flight plan or flight itinerary so folks will know when you haven't arrived as expected. Belt, suspenders, and another belt if you can. You most certainly don't want to be reliant on a device that you have to activate manually - you may not be either conscious or alive to do so. Remember, it might be your passenger who has survived - your choice of ELT needs to ensure they don't needlessly suffer in the event you don't survive the impact.

If you are concerned about having an on-board GPS in your ELT, I'll point out the Kannad Integra has both a built-in GPS and a built-in 406 antenna that will be automatically used if your external antenna or coax are damaged. The Integra needs to be able to "see the sky" for either of these functions to work.

WRT to Bret's comment earlier in this thread about Artex devices, check out some of my previous posts on this forum, including in the discussion thread posted by Terry. Now that Ameri-King is effectively a dead duck, Artex assumes the role of least favoured ELT manufacturer, and for good reason.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
A couple of comments - I've made them here before. Sorry to be so frank, but tell me, do you carry life insurance? Will you leave behind family members who might give a hoot about your well-being? If you answered "yes" to either of those questions, you want your carcass to be found quickly. 406 is the only way to go, if for no reason than to help your family access your life insurance funds more quickly.

With respect to carrying a PLB, that's a great idea IN ADDITION to a 406 ELT. While you're at it, file a flight plan or flight itinerary so folks will know when you haven't arrived as expected. Belt, suspenders, and another belt if you can. You most certainly don't want to be reliant on a device that you have to activate manually - you may not be either conscious or alive to do so. Remember, it might be your passenger who has survived - your choice of ELT needs to ensure they don't needlessly suffer in the event you don't survive the impact.

.
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I like frankness and appreciate it. Your opinion is appreciated.
I am self insured. Your points are biased to your own situation and values, but well taken. Each must make their own.
I am still waiting to hear about the ELT that saved somebody's bacon in an RV, or even one that located a crash site. Are there any? There has to be some.
Sorry Bret - Hopefully this discussion gets you closer to your own decision. I will bow out now, listen and learn. (Would it surprise you that I haven't upgraded my ELT? ;)
 
I am leaning towards Kannad, I am working with a Local Dynon dealer friend who is helping with my install and he suggested using the Dynon GPS for location, do you know if this brand will accept external GPS input from the Dynon GPS?
 
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crickets.....I hear crickets.......where is everyone.......Oshkosh ? ok, wish I was there but any way, another question....on this Kannad I see an internal GPS antenna, so does the unit need to be mounted with a clear view of the sky? anyone.....Bueler?
 
"I am still waiting to hear about the ELT that saved somebody's bacon in an RV, or even one that located a crash site. Are there any? There has to be some."

This is a common perception, that ELT's are a miserable failure. Unfortunately we often hear only about the failures, and not the 'saves'. I wouldn't expect you to take my word concerning the 406 "saves", so instead I'll refer you to a more official source. Sorry I wasn't able to find more current info in my quick search.

https://www.cospas-sarsat.int/images/stories/SystemDocs/Current/Bul26-FINAL-v-091015.pdf

In particular, look at the first page of the document where the summary indicates more than 39,000 people saved by 406MHz emergency beacon technology since 1982. Keep in mind that includes ELTs, EPIRBs and PLBs. Since we're interested particularly in ELTs, take a look at page 6 where some "Notable Saves" are highlighted. The first two "saves" are aviation/ELT activations.

With respect to the concept that RV accidents are either survivable or not, let me suggest you give some consideration to the risks taken by those who perform Search and Rescue. If you happen to be the subject of a search effort, many people will be putting their lives on the line to go looking for you. Often those searches take place in poor weather, over inhospitable terrain, and sometimes the searchers themselves come to grief while doing their darndest to bring aid to a downed aircraft. Sure, you might have gone into the side of a hill in your RV and perished hours ago, with no more earthly cares. But those SAR folks all have families waiting at home for them. Why needlessly endanger them?

Sometimes we need to span our thinking out a bit and realize it's not just about us. Sometimes we need to consider those who are left behind after we've gone west.

Think about it...
 
"crickets.....I hear crickets.......where is everyone.......Oshkosh ? ok, wish I was there but any way, another question....on this Kannad I see an internal GPS antenna, so does the unit need to be mounted with a clear view of the sky? anyone.....Bueler?"

The short answer is the Kannad Integra's internal antenna (both GPS and 406) have to be able to "see the sky" to function. As many RVs install the ELT in close proximity to the cockpit, a view of the sky isn't entirely impossible. I'm building an aircraft with a composite hull so this requirement is much easier to meet, but again, it's not impossible or even that difficult in a typical RV.

To answer your earlier question, some ELTs are capable of accepting GPS data from an external source, via NMEA0183 or similar RS-232 serial interface. Some ELTs require an interface box to make this work, and often the interface box costs as much or more than the ELT itself. In Canada, the connection of an external GPS to an ELT is considered "specialized work" and must be done by an appropriately-rated Approved Maintenance Organization (avionics shop).

One ELT that springs immediately to mind that features an interface to an external GPS is the ACK E-04 - its interface is included in the basic unit. The down-side to this device is that its connectors have a bit of a history of reliability challenges. Nuthin's purfect! LoL
 
A ha! so digging into this deeper, Vans sells the ELT bracket that gets installed behind the baggage wall on two J channels, totally enclosed in the aluminum fuse. So this was probably originally designed for the 121 and not the 406. The 406 needs to see the sky, so even if we put it in the baggage area, it is not going to see sky if and when most of the accident end up upside down......where is everyone putting this box? if the GPS antenna is on the unit, and folks are installing them incorrectly, maybe that's why we get the negative reports? I will be traveling Through the Sierras often and would like to be found if the unthinkable happens.
 
JonJay said:
I like frankness and appreciate it. Your opinion is appreciated.
I am self insured. Your points are biased to your own situation and values, but well taken. Each must make their own.
I am still waiting to hear about the ELT that saved somebody's bacon in an RV, or even one that located a crash site. Are there any? There has to be some.
Sorry Bret - Hopefully this discussion gets you closer to your own decision. I will bow out now, listen and learn. (Would it surprise you that I haven't upgraded my ELT? ;)
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So what's the difference between a 406 MHz ELT and a PLB, really? Essentially, only the automation of initiating a signal, right? They're both GPS-based, satellite-detected, and initiate S&R immediately upon receipt of first signal, IIRC.

So with a "standard" 121.5 old-school brick of an ELT in the back, and a PLB attached to me (my harness, actually), I have redundant systems and alternate actuation mechanisms. Unless I do something truly stupid and plow into a mountain while in IMC, and thus have no time to activate an emergency checklist, I can manually activate the PLB as part of my checklist activities *prior* to landing/crash, right?

In fact, this combination may be *more* robust than a single unit which combines GPS/satellite signal broadcast, since if that fails (gets destroyed on crashing), no signal will be sent.

The PLB is also much less bulky and more portable, should I have to leave the site of the crash for whatever reason.

So, IMO, you get essentially all of the benefits of a 406 unit, plus redundancy via separate devices and different activation mechanisms, with a 121.5 + PLB, at far less cost.

(ETA: Given the increasingly solid coverage of the country by ADS-B, I wonder if that wouldn't also increase the odds of finding wreckage, if the aircraft is ADS-B OUT equipped?)
 
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That's a good point, maybe I'll look in that direction also. Is there anything in the pipes coming down that is going to require us to have a 406 in the Experimental.
 
bret said:
A ha! so digging into this deeper, Vans sells the ELT bracket that gets installed behind the baggage wall on two J channels, totally enclosed in the aluminum fuse. So this was probably originally designed for the 121 and not the 406. The 406 needs to see the sky, so even if we put it in the baggage area, it is not going to see sky if and when most of the accident end up upside down......where is everyone putting this box? if the GPS antenna is on the unit, and folks are installing them incorrectly, maybe that's why we get the negative reports? I will be traveling Through the Sierras often and would like to be found if the unthinkable happens.
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As has been mentioned in other threads, there are not many options in most RVs for the ELT location.

My opinion is that an ELT with built in GPS should have a dedicated antenna with a clear shot at the sky - which is useless if you end up upside down. Most seem to be installing with the Vans or similar bracket behind the baggage compartment and putting the antenna either under the tail cone cover or in the baggage compartment - bending the whip to contour with the airframe sides.

The Kannard unit you referenced above could be mounted in the baggage compartment with a fiberglass or plastic shield to keep it from being banged around.


The PLB is a good backup and we all like to have backup equipment.
 
If you're going to install a fixed ELT, make it 406 ... there is NO point in 121.5 at this point, waste of money, it's not being monitored. Not sure you'd save any money either.

Want redundancy, get a 406 AF and a PLB.

I think I saw Canada now has a deadline on 406 installations ... Mexico keeps pushing theirs back, haven't heard of a mandate in the US yet ... but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea ...
 
RV7A Flyer wrote:
"So what's the difference between a 406 MHz ELT and a PLB, really? Essentially, only the automation of initiating a signal, right? They're both GPS-based, satellite-detected, and initiate S&R immediately upon receipt of first signal, IIRC."

A couple of points of education here, if I may...

1) neither ELT nor PLB are GPS-based. they can both use GPS position to narrow the search area, but the primary means of location remains the production of a small search area through multiple passes of LEO satellites (soon to be MEO satellites), using Doppler, to locate the transmitter. If that transmitter is sending GPS information then that GPS position is provided to SAR via a geostationary satellite and virtually eliminates the need for multiple LEO satellites, thus giving SAR your position within minutes.

2) 121.5 ELTs are NOT satellite detected, and haven't been for several years. If your 121.5 ELT goes off, you're reliant on an over-flying aircraft hearing your transmission, then finding the transmitter is done by brute-force searching with airplanes and people. There is no way to take even a rough position hack off your 121.5 transmission - that died when the last 121.5 satellite splashed down in the ocean. Again, 121.5 ELT signals are NOT monitored by COSPAS-SARSAT, period.

3) a 121.5 ELT + a PLB does NOT = redundancy. A 406 ELT + a PLB = redundancy. Again, no big brother up in the heavens is looking for your 121.5 signal. A 121.5 ELT signal does NOT initiate SAR unless somebody just happens to hear it. Do you want to take the chance that you're unconscious, bleeding out, with your PLB hanging dormant on your harness? Think about it!
 
I have a similar story. Elapsed time from activation to resolution of the alarm was 8 minutes when a mechanic managed to turn on the brand new ELT he was installing. The best part of the story was the false alarm was dealt with by a few phone calls. No airplanes were scrambled, no lives were put at risk.
 
Tomcat RV4 said:
For vfr flying I p!an to go with PLB ,as it offers everything except automation ! Tom
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??? Here in the US EAB aircraft are not exempt from the ELT rules. You need to have one, unless you fit into one of the exemptions (e.g., no passengers, ever).
 
Canadian_JOY said:
I have a similar story. Elapsed time from activation to resolution of the alarm was 8 minutes when a mechanic managed to turn on the brand new ELT he was installing. The best part of the story was the false alarm was dealt with by a few phone calls. No airplanes were scrambled, no lives were put at risk.
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Come on now. They don't scramble airplanes everytime an ELT goes off. I would assume they follow a similar regiment to what they have always done? If it goes off at an airport, like Bret's example, or in an urban area, they will assume a false alarm and follow that protocol.

Not lost on the point. I have learned a lot about the capabilities of the "new" ELT's and they are obviously worlds ahead of where we where before. Being able to quickly discern and qualify alarms (false alarms probably occur more often than real emergencies) is a huge plus.

I look forward to hearing more from others experiences and opinions.

I am glad this thread was started.
 
JonJay said:
Come on now. They don't scramble airplanes everytime an ELT goes off. I would assume they follow a similar regiment to what they have always done? If it goes off at an airport, like Bret's example, or in an urban area, they will assume a false alarm and follow that protocol.
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Well, all too often SAR resources ARE scrambled for 121.5 ELTs. That's the challenge of the 121.5 technology - it's totally anonymous. Its the registration of the 406 beacon that allows a rapid and tightly-targetted communications search. It's these communications searches that are proving to be so effective in weeding out false alarms.

While I am not an active member of the Canadian CASARA (civil SAR organization) my hangar-mate is, as are several flying friends. I can assure you they get scrambled frequently to search for 121.5 ELTs that are in hangars, trunks of cars, etc. Not very long ago we had a Herc spend about an hour circling one of the local suburbs, thanks to a 121.5 ELT transmitting from a person's home. Scrambling airplanes to look for 121.5 ELT's is still happening, all too frequently.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
Well, all too often SAR resources ARE scrambled for 121.5 ELTs. That's the challenge of the 121.5 technology - it's totally anonymous. Its the registration of the 406 beacon that allows a rapid and tightly-targetted communications search. It's these communications searches that are proving to be so effective in weeding out false alarms.

While I am not an active member of the Canadian CASARA (civil SAR organization) my hangar-mate is, as are several flying friends. I can assure you they get scrambled frequently to search for 121.5 ELTs that are in hangars, trunks of cars, etc. Not very long ago we had a Herc spend about an hour circling one of the local suburbs, thanks to a 121.5 ELT transmitting from a person's home. Scrambling airplanes to look for 121.5 ELT's is still happening, all too frequently.
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They just sent some young recruits from the local sheriffs office to my garage when the kids accidently activated mine during a move. Pretty sure they knew an airplane wasn't in distress in a heavily populated area given the fact that nobody called 911. Perhaps they do things differently in Canada. ;)
 
It looks like the G trigger is in the forward direction, thinking about mounting in the spot designated in the plans behind the baggage wall, upside down but still forward arranged forward, and then install a Lexan window on the bottom of the fuse, in case a crash and end up upside down, and the external antenna gets damaged or coax severed, the internal GPS antenna can see the sky and yell for HELP? YES-NO? any other thoughts-ideas?
 
bret said:
It looks like the G trigger is in the forward direction, thinking about mounting in the spot designated in the plans behind the baggage wall, upside down but still forward arranged forward, and then install a Lexan window on the bottom of the fuse, in case a crash and end up upside down, and the external antenna gets damaged or coax severed, the internal GPS antenna can see the sky and yell for HELP? YES-NO? any other thoughts-ideas?
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Careful. That is a structural area.
Last year, a young girl walked out of the woods here in Washington State. Her grandparents didn't make it out of the crash. The ELT didn't do anything. This was a certified Bonanza.
Your thought process is good, but you can not plan for every accident scenario.
I do not know why the ELT didn't work. Could have been a maintenance issue for all I know.
 
bret said:
It looks like the G trigger is in the forward direction, thinking about mounting in the spot designated in the plans behind the baggage wall, upside down but still forward arranged forward, and then install a Lexan window on the bottom of the fuse, in case a crash and end up upside down, and the external antenna gets damaged or coax severed, the internal GPS antenna can see the sky and yell for HELP? YES-NO? any other thoughts-ideas?
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The g trigger looks for sudden decelleration in the forward AND vertical directions. Do not mount it upside down.
 
BobTurner said:
The g trigger looks for sudden decelleration in the forward AND vertical directions. Do not mount it upside down.
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Ok, thanks Bob. Any suggestions for where to mount one of theses so we have an open RF window for the internal GPS antenna?
 
bret said:
Ok, thanks Bob. Any suggestions for where to mount one of theses so we have an open RF window for the internal GPS antenna?
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This is a lot harder than you imagine. It's not the GHz gps signal, it's the ELT signal that has an issue. A hole tends to look like a hole to radio waves only if the antenna is very close to the hole, or the hole is a lot larger than a wavelength. At 450 MHz a wavelength is roughly 2 feet. I doubt you're going to cut a 2 foot hole anywhere!
 
As a one off that is different than all the other 406 units I am aware of, I installed an EBC-406 in the cabin of my 7A. No GPS, no annunciator panel (none required), I can activate it manually if needed and I can pick it up and take it with me if desired (assuming I could walk at that time :rolleyes:).
 
Canadian_JOY said:
RV7A Flyer wrote:
"So what's the difference between a 406 MHz ELT and a PLB, really? Essentially, only the automation of initiating a signal, right? They're both GPS-based, satellite-detected, and initiate S&R immediately upon receipt of first signal, IIRC."

A couple of points of education here, if I may...

1) neither ELT nor PLB are GPS-based. they can both use GPS position to narrow the search area, but the primary means of location remains the production of a small search area through multiple passes of LEO satellites (soon to be MEO satellites), using Doppler, to locate the transmitter. If that transmitter is sending GPS information then that GPS position is provided to SAR via a geostationary satellite and virtually eliminates the need for multiple LEO satellites, thus giving SAR your position within minutes.
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But since my PLB *does* use GPS, and it's unlikely that many would install a 406 ELT without hooking up a GPS if it's possible given their on-board GPS equipment, then in the real world, we're talking GPS location for the most part, with multiple sat passes as a sort of back-up.

2) 121.5 ELTs are NOT satellite detected, and haven't been for several years. If your 121.5 ELT goes off, you're reliant on an over-flying aircraft hearing your transmission, then finding the transmitter is done by brute-force searching with airplanes and people. There is no way to take even a rough position hack off your 121.5 transmission - that died when the last 121.5 satellite splashed down in the ocean. Again, 121.5 ELT signals are NOT monitored by COSPAS-SARSAT, period.
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I know that. I never said they were monitored or detected by satellite.

3) a 121.5 ELT + a PLB does NOT = redundancy. A 406 ELT + a PLB = redundancy. Again, no big brother up in the heavens is looking for your 121.5 signal. A 121.5 ELT signal does NOT initiate SAR unless somebody just happens to hear it. Do you want to take the chance that you're unconscious, bleeding out, with your PLB hanging dormant on your harness? Think about it!
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Which is why I said "activate the PLB as part of the emergency checklist".

I'm not averse to 406 ELTs...just their cost. If the price differential hadn't been so high, and the PLB gives me sat-based SAR *and* portability *and* low cost, then I might have installed a 406 instead of a 121.5.

But I didn't.
 
Thanks for all the input gents, the one comment that hit me was (do you have life ins, do you want your family to get paid, they need to find you) that statement hit home for me, Just ordered the Kannad 11-09927 right now untill 8/2015 they have a free battery and retro kit offer, so there ya go.........Cha Ching! man this is getting expensive!...... :rolleyes:
 
Airlines have to monitor 121.5. I've relayed for distressed GA planes twice. We let ATC know when we here an ELT, sometimes false alarms sound for multiple days, which gets annoying and a bit disconcerting. CAP still sweeps and homes on 121.5, if not also 243. You can see them practicing at Oshkosh, the 4 antenna H pattern on a stick with a sunburned kid on the back of a golf cart, I think they practice on 121.6, based on a time the trainer hid one in our C-17 airshow static where one might want to play hide and seek.

Military monitors 243 in flight, typically. I have homed on activated parachute pingers overflying bases and radioed command post to let the life support shop know one needs to be tuned off. I have heard the new ELTs with GPS feeds, the data goes out on 406 and a synthesized voice on 121.5. I sent the lat lon to FSS, who then asked me about signal strength off some outdated checklist (false alarm at a home, but under a thunderstorm, I had started a 100 mile divert, realized I could not make it to the coords, found out later it was a false alarm). The folks that have to monitor 121.5 are probably wondering if I'm a "Guard Nazi" - I am not, it's sad to me how 121.5 is misuesed, and the 2x I've used it to aid have been filled with other pilots saying, "You're on Guard", causing missed calls to and from the distressed.

This is in only 6000 hours over 20 years of mil heavies and airlines. I'm probably typical.

Not to oversell outdated and not officially monitored ELTs. My issue is a basic fear of antenna function after a crash of any ELT. I believe I have a good chance of triggering the remote pre impact if off airport. The same thoughts on activating a PLB.

A 406/121.5/243 ELT with a dedicated gps feed is the current highest standard. Many good units do not have a 243 option. They still should be fine. Most of us have enough gps sources to feed an ELT's input without needing a 406 ELT with the GPS chip and antennae on the unit itself.
 
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