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  #1  
Old 11-06-2018, 07:47 AM
alenovo alenovo is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: London
Posts: 1
Default Experimental kit airplane in europe

Hi, im new here. nice forum! i wanted to ask a few questions on experimental kits i have. Ive been doing some online research without success.

Im looking to own an airplane and my mission is to tour europe. im looking to do this at 140-150 kts in a 4 seater airplane

Im eu citizen and i have a spanish PPL EASA.

Because of the nature of my job i tend to move within EASA . Ive been living in uk for 2.5yrs and now ive been in Germany for 6 months.
I dont know where i might relocate in the future

ive looked at Arrows and Mooneys buy its hard to find something good that you dont have to rebuild the engine after purchase.

lately ive being looking at the experimental scene, specially the Vans RV10 and Sling 4 TSI
Also because one of my life dreams and goals would be to build an airplane.

Regarding regulations, what are those in Europe?

If i buy a RV10 or sling 4 kit, (or quickbuild possibly) build it, and register it in spain/germany/uk
Can i fly internationally within EASA?
Can i fly night time?
Can i fly IFR?
Can i fly outside EASA?
What are the benefits regarding maintenance? is the owner/pilot able to conduct its own maintenance? (one of the mayor benefits of experimental in EEUU)

What other limitations are there to know?

thanks again.
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2018, 09:02 AM
control control is offline
 
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 569
Default

If i buy a RV10 or sling 4 kit, (or quickbuild possibly) build it, and register it in spain/germany/uk
Can i fly internationally within EASA? In most but not all EASA contries
Can i fly night time? I think but are not 100% sure that the answer is yes for all contries that allow experimentals now
Can i fly IFR?In several but far from all EASA contries
Can i fly outside EASA?Yes but the rules vary a lot
What are the benefits regarding maintenance? is the owner/pilot able to conduct its own maintenance? (one of the mayor benefits of experimental in EEUU)This is very dependant on your country of registration, in some contries it is builder or certified mechanic only, in others owners can do it after education and supervised practice

What other limitations are there to know?For this you should contact the EAA/LAA in the countries that you consider

Welcome here and good luck!
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:21 AM
flyingRV flyingRV is online now
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 10
Default

Hi,

as I‘m also in the process of figuring out what to build and I asked myself some of the same questions.
The answer to most of them...“It depends“.
As every country regulates the experimentals/homebuilds seperately they have the right to decide what’s allowed and what‘s not.
In Germany for example:

You have to build it there and it‘s not possible to register an experimental which was built abroad.

4 seater require a special certfication and some parts of the airplane have to be certified themselves. Same applies to IFR.

I don‘t have he answer for every country but I checked the AIPs of some of our neighbours. I‘m also in Germany. Most of the countries accept foreign registered experimentals without special permission required but most of the them just daylight and VFR only. So IFR/night travelling through Europe seems to be difficult.

I guess you have to do some research for every country which comes into consideration. Here the EAA is called OUV.

Good luck
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:39 AM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Default Welcome to VAF

Quote:
Originally Posted by alenovo View Post
Hi, im new here. nice forum!
Alejandro, welcome to VAF
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2018, 12:13 PM
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Mark Albery Mark Albery is offline
 
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Location: Fremont CA
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It's important to remember that experimental 'certification' is specific to the country of registration. The ICAO freedoms only strictly apply to standard certified aircraft.

Within Europe there is relatively free movement according to the ECAC agreement, though for a few countries (e.g. Spain, Portugal, Iceland) you need to apply for an individual permission to fly a foreign homebuilt.

Annual inspection and re-validation will usually be done in the country of registration.

RE-location to another country is usually limited to a few weeks at a time, any longer will usually require applying for exemption or re-registration to that country.

Some countries (France comes to mind) are resistant to imported homebuilts. It probably helps if you are the builder.

Most countries will restrict you to day/vfr although there is some evidence of that becoming less restrictive, but you are bound by the rules of the country where you are flying.

Flying to non-ECAC countries is perfectly possible if you do the paperwork. There are many homebuilt aircraft that have completed round-the-world flights.

Maintenance requirements also vary country to country. Sweden have a system similar to the US, UK requires work to be signed off by an approved inspector except for minor items like a 50 hour check.
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2018, 01:11 AM
selaburdy selaburdy is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Rosenheim, Germany
Posts: 13
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If i buy a RV10 or sling 4 kit, (or quickbuild possibly) build it, and register it in spain/germany/uk => YES
Can i fly internationally within EASA? => YES
Can i fly night time? => only with certified engine / prop / avionic
Can i fly IFR? => only with certified engine / prop / avionic
Can i fly outside EASA? => YES
What are the benefits regarding maintenance? is the owner/pilot able to conduct its own maintenance? (one of the mayor benefits of experimental in EEUU) => YES

IFR / night is with german registration possible but now only with certified parts. For this question would be good to ask the German LBA directly.

with Swedish registration IFR / night is possible but you must have an inspector for the annual check nearby.

take care and good luck.
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2018, 03:22 PM
penguin penguin is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: England
Posts: 1,052
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alenovo View Post
Regarding regulations, what are those in Europe?

If i buy a RV10 or sling 4 kit, (or quickbuild possibly) build it, and register it in spain/germany/uk
The rules in each country are different. Homebuilts are not EASA aircraft and so are nationally regulated. In general you must contact the homebuilders' association in each country.

Quote:
Can i fly internationally within EASA?
Yes, but ... Some countries, for example Spain & Portugal, insist you obtain permission before you travel. Belgium used to charge 90 Euro per visit (most avoided), charge now dropped. In most countries you may only stay for 28 days in any one year. Rules differ, check with your homebuilders' association.

Quote:
Can i fly night time?
Depends on the country where you are registered/certified.
In UK only once the aircraft has been through a specific approval process. Some counties do not permit other than day/VFR flight by homebuilts.

Quote:
Can i fly IFR?
Same as night, often aircraft by aircraft approval required.
Some counties do not permit IFR/IMC flight by homebuilts.

Quote:
Can i fly outside EASA?
Yes, see comments above on international travel. As the aircraft is nationally (not EASA) certified then any international travel is to the same rules.

Quote:
What are the benefits regarding maintenance? is the owner/pilot able to conduct its own maintenance? (one of the mayor benefits of experimental in EEUU)
Usually owner can carry out all maintenance with over sight from local inspector/A&P. Parts do not have to be certified. Rules differ between individual countries. Important to decide which country's rules you will build/operate under. Best to buy an aircraft from the country where you will operate. It is possible to import aircraft, but time consuming. Importing from US is usually very time consuming.

My advice is ensure you understand the rules of the country where you will be based before committing any money to an aircraft. It is possible to have to carry out substantial work, for example an engine overhaul, to meet local rules.
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  #8  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:23 AM
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JoopSJ JoopSJ is offline
 
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Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 17
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As you can read here, the biggest take away is that everything depends on the country of registration. There is no consensus within EASA and that's why homebuild falls under the National regulation.

But the general rule is that flying homebuilds is very restricted. Sweden and UK made some progress by allowing IFR operations. But that same UK has very strict rules for building the acft. If you want to put a mount for your go-pro in the cockpit, you need permission. I am not kidding.

Looking at your use case/ ambition I would definitly consider buying a certified one. Buy one in the US and leave it N registred. That will give a lot of cost advantage compared to EASA reg.

Don't forget that you need to add at least 30% to all the advertised prices you see for the kit, parts, tools avionics while building your experimental. That money might open some opportunities for acquiering a certified. Buy it in the US and fly it to EUR.
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  #9  
Old 11-24-2018, 07:14 AM
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Lufthans Lufthans is offline
 
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Location: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Posts: 50
Default

I concur with most what's posted here. Like Joop, I am in The Netherlands. I own three experimentals here that I have on PH register. Personally, I wouldn't want to have to deal with the red tape of certified aircraft. The ability to do my own maintenance and to decide what I do when, the ability to improve my aircraft as I see fit are things I would not want to be without.

As is mentioned before - things vary wildly from country to country.

In the UK, you indeed cannot do anything without the LAA approving it. The LAA being the UK "equivalent" to the EAA, however in this case the CAA has levied a great deal of oversight responsibilities onto them, which the LAA seem to be very keen of upholding.

You can't base a non- G-reg aircraft in the UK for any prolonged period of time, you basically you're screwed there.

In Germany where you are now, you cannot import an experimental aircraft and put it on D-register. What a fair number of people then do is import it and register it on PH (Dutch) callsign. That's totally fine by both the Germans and the Dutch. Other people import an N-reg aircraft and just leave it on N register. Somehow the Germans accept this, whereas in most of the rest of Europe this is not ok (and lacks all legal grounds by the way)

Etc etc

You CAN fly around pretty much all of Europe. The ECAC agreement that has now been signed by just about every European country sees to that.

EASA is now throwing up dust again by stating that Annex-2 aircraft (being non-EASA certified ones, including historic aircraft and homebuilts) might not count toward the 12 hours to keep your PPL valid. As the PPL is EASA and the aircraft are not. Pencil pushers at work, thank you. Luckily, this is not implemented (yet?).

IFR is mostly not allowed with homebuilts. The reason being that you are not allowed to overfly densely populated areas such as cities, and when IFR, you can't be held to this rule. Actually makes sense (although the not-over-cities is questionable, of course).

Bottom line - make sure you know the rules and limitations before you leap. There are way too many civil "servants" involved to make this either simple or logical.

Good luck in your decision!

Hans
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  #10  
Old 11-24-2018, 04:00 PM
WAM120RV WAM120RV is offline
 
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Location: Coventry. England
Posts: 604
Default EU mess

You have had several people make definitive statement about what is and what is not allowed. The truth is that most countries have different rules and you need to find the rules for where you intend to build and operate.

In the UK you can get a home built cleared for night and IFR, you can also overfly cities.

All the EU has done is make a complicated situation more complicated, it has not standardised what home builds can and cannot do in each country, or has it standardised the rules on how they are built/ maintained/ inspected.

So my advice is find out what each country wants or does!
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