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  #1  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:50 PM
Full Throttle Full Throttle is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Norwalk, CA
Posts: 5
Default N838RV NTSB final report

N838RV Final Report has been published. It has to do with a Superior Air Parts XP-400 Crankshaft failure in a RV-8A

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=FA

Last edited by DeltaRomeo : 11-19-2018 at 08:00 PM. Reason: added link
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2018, 09:33 AM
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RV3bpilot RV3bpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New Ulm, Minnesota
Posts: 269
Default Engine Out Flight to the Ground

I sure wish more pilots would practice engine out landings. When it happens for real for the first time it is like you just grabbed a bare wire from an old wore out electrical cord that is plugged in to 120 volts. Then you try everything to get the engine back running, flipping switches and valves, that takes about 5 seconds. Then you shut everything off and glide with your adrenaline making you sweat and heart pound hard.

Please practice engine out landings, in most cases they are survivable even in unfriendly terrain.
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RV3b N219BB
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:11 AM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV3bpilot View Post
I sure wish more pilots would practice engine out landings.....

Please practice engine out landings, in most cases they are survivable even in unfriendly terrain.
You are right but kind of missing the point... "Engine out landing" means what? Landing with no power (idle)? We all do that for the most part every flight, as we should be at idle at or just before touchdown... Practicing idle power pattern, approach, final, landing without adding power is good, agree. Learn your best glide speed, practice power off stalls at safe altitude, yep all good things. However....

I think the main point is DON'T STALL... They stalled. So many loss of power accidents end in a stall and uncontrolled contact with the ground... DON'T STALL...

If loss of power is at low altitude,
* Don't turn go straight or don't turn more than 20-30 degrees left or right
* Fly it to the ground at min speed, flaps out, aim for least impact
* Wings level and take what ever you got to land on or hit
* Don't try to save the airplane, don't make steep turns...
* DON'T STALL.... DON'T STALL.....

An off field landing can be very survivable if you hit under control at min speed... Get slow, turn, and stall, hit uncontrolled, you will not make it.

The report says the engine was a factor but not cause:
Recip engine power section - Failure (Factor)
Airspeed - Not attained/maintained (Cause)
Angle of attack - Not attained/maintained (Cause)
Personnel issues Aircraft control - Pilot (Cause)

I think artificial stall warning or AOA is a great thing. Experimental aircraft don't mandate this,
and RV's have pretty good indication from buffeting it is about to stall... if you are sensitive to it....
However AOA indicators give us an amazing safety advantage...

The other thing is these hot rod engines making over stock (Lycoming) HP. It is safe, but these
are often not certified engine configurations. This crank failed in a few hours. I am of the belief
if you have a NEW engine you should fly it like phase 1, and stay near the airport. Climb to altitude
and orbit for the first X hours... RIP and condolences to family and friends of the pilot and passenger.
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Raleigh, NC Area
RV-4, RV-7, ATP, CFII, MEI, 737/757/767

Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 12-09-2018 at 11:32 AM.
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  #4  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:57 AM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
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George has some good points here although I wouldn't drop full flap in an RV. I wouldn't be here today if I had.

Read this short piece based on my experience with an actual power loss and forced landing.

http://www.sdsefi.com/air44.htm
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 426.1 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi.htm


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  #5  
Old 12-10-2018, 11:33 AM
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DeeCee 57 DeeCee 57 is offline
 
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Location: Zürich W, Switzerland, Europe, Earth, Milky Way, known Universe...
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yep, good pointers Ross.

Had an engine failure in my first Falco in 2008 and was way surprised at the ROD. Following a con-rod failure the Lyco had lost all oil and the prop was effectively acting as an airbrake. At the time we were only about 400m (1200ft) AGL, and aided by my guardian angel working overtime, managed to land the stricken bird on a winding mountain road. Gear partially extended and flaps up...

My modest RV flight experience has taught me that I would not be using flaps in case of an emergency landing with the engine stopped. Especially with the 3 bladed prop, the steep approach results in a flare akin to an autorotation in a chopper...
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2018, 01:41 PM
Finley Atherton Finley Atherton is offline
 
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Location: AUSTRALIA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
I wouldn't drop full flap in an RV.
Or if you do then add more speed.
Did some engine out full flap tests in my 9A some time ago. My normal (engine producing power) short field approach speed is 55 kt with full flap. With a dead engine at 55 kt and full flap there is not enough power in the elevator/wings to arrest the greater rate of descent going into the flare. I found I had to add 10 kt (65 kt) to comfortably flare with a dead engine.

Fin
9A

Last edited by Finley Atherton : 12-10-2018 at 01:47 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:28 PM
YellowJacket RV9 YellowJacket RV9 is offline
 
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Location: Clearwater, FL / KZPH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finley Atherton View Post
Or if you do then add more speed.
Did some engine out full flap tests in my 9A some time ago. My normal (engine producing power) short field approach speed is 55 kt with full flap. With a dead engine at 55 kt and full flap there is not enough power in the elevator/wings to arrest the greater rate of descent going into the flare. I found I had to add 10 kt (65 kt) to comfortably flare with a dead engine.

Fin
9A
I guess it depends on whether you are worried about vertical or horizontal speed. I would be less concerned about being able to flare than about hitting anything in front of me at the lowest possible speed. For a forced landing in an open field, I would want a nice flare and smooth touchdown. If I was destined to hit a solid object head on, my goal would be to hit it at the lowest possible forward speed, which would seem to suggest full flaps and right on the edge of stall.

Chris
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  #8  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:52 PM
WAM120RV WAM120RV is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Coventry. England
Posts: 604
Default A sad event

I like everyone else never want to see these reports, but as has been said we need to practice for an engine out dead stick landing. If you don’t practice you are likely to become another report.

Most RVs have very poor glide ratio, the 9 is probably the best. Having practiced in the 9 I could pull power off well before turning base and still land on the runway. In the 4 there is no way you could do that. Pulling off power about a mile out from 1000 ft is about your limit.

Putting flaps out is never a good idea until you know you can make your landing point. But you must keep speed up and make turns very gently. If you must turn tighter increase your speed first.

I recently did three PFL with an instructor as part of a BFR. The first two I did a flawless touch and goes. The third I did a full flap full stop landing with no issues at all. Two of my friends have recently had real dead stick landings, one in a Europa, the second in a Kitfox 7, in both cases the aircraft were substantially damaged but both pilots and in one case a passenger were uninsured.

Both of these guys practice regularly. The reason for the damage on the Kitfox was that he was that his only option was a ploughed field, otherwise I am pretty sure the aeroplane would have been OK too.

So, everyone should practice for this, for low time RV pilots it is even more important.
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Steve Arnold
England

In completion stage of Loehle P5151
Built and now Flying G.BVLR Vans RV4
Rebuilt G.BDBD Tailwind
Rebuilt G BVTN Kitfox
Built G CDCD RV9A with WAM120
Riveted wings on Glastar G.LEZZ Now (G. SKUA)
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  #9  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:53 PM
Finley Atherton Finley Atherton is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowJacket RV9 View Post
I guess it depends on whether you are worried about vertical or horizontal speed. I would be less concerned about being able to flare than about hitting anything in front of me at the lowest possible speed.
I suspect that in my example where I am approaching 10 kt faster with a dead engine and full flap the high rate of descent will require considerable backstick in the flare which will abruptly reduce airspeed possibly to a similar airspeed to that after a “normal” flare at 55 kt? Might do some more testing!

Fin
9A

Last edited by Finley Atherton : 12-10-2018 at 04:39 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-10-2018, 04:34 PM
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JonJay JonJay is offline
 
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While I do practice engine outs, remember, an engine at idle is still reducing drag by quite a bit vs an engine stopped.
I remember Joe Blank doing full engine out tests over the Alvord Desert where it was safe to do so and he mentioned to me it was pretty significant.
I am sorry I don’t have direct experience. I should have taken the opportunity while I was there with Joe and our gang.
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